Gay marriages
 

But not to the degree of dehumanizing a race of people as slave owners and the klan did to provide a twisted version of their way being right in the sight of God.

Re: Re: gay marriages
 

Exactly my point. Who's to say that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is the correct one?

Just read the story....................................
 

Genesis 19th chapter I mean it's plain as day......read it then try and spin that one...................if you can......remember we can play fool w/man but we can't play fool w/God.


What next will it be okay to steal, rape and kill.....maybe that's all in the interpretation of it as well.

Re: Just read the story....................................
 

Bruh,

You hit the nail on the head

I've realized that some people are going to believe what they want regardless of how many facts or figures you show them. Even when the facts are NOT in dispute, they will find something to dispute or be critical about. Which is why I always end with saying we'll have to answer to God one day...and he'll be the judge of it.

Re: Gay marriages
 

No. You're absolutely right. I agree with you on that.

Re: Re: Just read the story....................................
 

So why worry about the rest of us. If you know you're going to heaven. Why do you care what the rest of us. Just worry about yourself.

I know you're saying that you just want a disscussion but I can't help but interpret your words as preaching. When you keep talking about people answering to God it's like you are trying to change our minds. If we're all going to answer to God, then I will answer to him when my time comes. Until then, I will continue to support homosexuals and their fight to have the sames rights as heterosexuals

Re: Re: Re: Just read the story....................................
 

SEE! thats your interpretation sweetheart. I have said several times that we'll all have to answer for what we do in our lives. I was responding to my frat AXEAM if that's ok with you. :rolleyes:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just read the story....................................
 

You know there's no need to cop an attitude with me.
I thought we were here to have a discussion...if that's all right with you?

Re: Re: Re: gay marriages
 

This is a similiar instance of the "he who is without sin" scripture. Anyone can take one sentence and use to to their benefit. However, when you take things our of context, then the whole meaning is lost. (I can post some specific examples if anyone is interested).

If I use the scripture "take up your sword and fight" to justify stabbing someone, that does not mean that the Bible condones it. Yes, that is actually written in the Bible, but what i failed to mention is that it is used to describe the Word of God (as the sword), not an actual sword. (This is explained in the same paragraph where this scripture is located).

There are some things that are specific as to what is a sin. To the point if you look in the Bible (any translation) it will say "______ is a sin". Homosexuality is one of them.

Re: Re: Re: Re: gay marriages
 

Actually that is not true. Not all versions of the Bible say that homosexuality is a sin. I know one version that doesn't even say it's an abomination.

I have The New International version and it actually says that homosexuality is disagreeable.

So, My interpretaion of that would be...is that God doesn't like it, but he's not going to love you any less and I certainly don't see it as saying that it's a sin and you will burn in hell for all eternity.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Just read the story....................................
 

Uhh unless you're mamma lovespell..i don't believe you need to be telling me anything about copping anything. Its getting unecessarily CATTY in here over this topic. I know its a touchy area...but I'll do my best to stay on the topic..

If I personally attacked you, I aplogize....my only intent/purpose is to post on the subject at hand.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: gay marriages
 

Lady Pi, just so you know, I don't plan to get into a back and forth Bible verse squabble with you over this. So with that said, what verse are you referring to where it says that in The New International version?

In 1 Corinthians 6:9 of The New International Version, it says that

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders"

~~~~~~~~~~~

This clearly would tell someone who is interested in living the Christian life what would be a sin (sin being an act, though, etc. that seperates you from God). And this from your version.

Lady Pi Phi

You must be reading a politically correct version of the bible because I own 7 versions of it and certain passages are pretty specific and synoptic on this subject.

LIBRASOUL

You can't use the Klan as an example of a Christian organization. A simple rule of thumb would be , if it involves hate, it's not Christian, no matter how twisted they try to make things.

This discussion of the Bible would be more applicable if we lived in a country where Christianity was the national, not majority, religion. Since we do not, we cannot the laws of our country to reflect specific Biblical passages. I have yet to hear a cogent argument against same sex marriages that was not based on religious beliefs. And, I have yet to hear reasons why some are so concerned with the sin of others. Should we now say that two thieves or two adulterers should not be legally married?

What's cogent to you is based on your opinion. Other non-biblical arguments are cogent to others...its just a difference of opinion. And I must be the only one..but I didn't read anyone's post where they said or gave the impression that they were so "concerned" about the sins of others. It's just a discussion between very opinionated people that disagree.

And no, Christianity is not the national religion..but what you fail to realize is that this nation is comprised of people who make laws...and if these people are "Christian" or align themselves with a certain religion..theya are likely to pass laws etc. based on their moral or christian beliefs...that's what Christans do. They don't just preach and receive the word in church..they're supposed to carry it out in their daily lives...

Why don't we make the federal CHRISTmas holiday a Winter holiday to go with all the other secularist beliefs today.:confused:

No, I clearly realize that fact and that is where my problem is. In this country, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. I don't want lawmakers relying on their own personal religious beliefs because there is no gaurantee that those beliefs will align with mine. If the majority religion changes from Christianity, I want to be confident that the laws that govern my day to day life will not be based on someone else's religion. I don't want someone to have the power to interfere with what I personally believe is correct. I am not going to start covering my face or walking behind a man if the majority religion in this country changes to Islam or Mouse Worship, for that matter.

Instead of trying to carry out the Word of God through laws, it would be much more effective to try to prevent the sins before they happen through one on one education. When you fight someone about something they want to do, it normally only makes that person want to do it even more.

Okay...I will work with your definition. I am seeing many people here who hate homosexuals...unChristian?

lovespell and axe...are y'all able to distinguish between IMMORAL and ILLEGAL?

You continue to cite the Bible verses when it is a SECULAR issue by nature (government, as ClassyLady said, is SUPPOSED to be totally separate from the state).

ETA: Let me pose this question: How would you all treat a family member who was gay and wanted to marry their partner whom they loved very much?

Actually, Christmas was/is a secular holiday. The idea of Christmas came from the Germans/Pagans (depending on your history book) and had nothing to do with the christian religion...just with gift giving. It is thought that Christmas actually predates the birth of Christ.

Just something to think about....

Hating is an unchristian-like behavior. Disagreeing with a lifestyle does not automatically equate to hate of that person.

Just as I predicted...
 

As I predicted...the gay ruling will bring Out even more perverts... Next someone will want to marry their pet....or excuse me Canine American!!!...just watch!
**************************************************
Utah Polygamist Invokes Ruling on Gay Sex

By MARK THIESSEN
Associated Press Writer

December 2, 2003, 2:57 AM EST


SALT LAKE CITY -- A lawyer for a Utah man with five wives argued Monday that his bigamy convictions should be thrown out following a Supreme Court decision decriminalizing gay sex.

The nation's high court in June struck down a Texas sodomy law, ruling that what gay men and women do in the privacy of their homes is no business of government.

It's no different for polygamists, argued Tom Green's attorney, John Bucher, to the Utah Supreme Court.

"It doesn't bother anyone, (and with) no compelling state interest in what you do in your own home with consenting adults, you should be allowed to do so," Bucher said.

The state said the court should reject the appeal because Green failed to raise the issue during his trial more than two years ago or anywhere else along the judicial path since then.

Green, who is not affiliated with any church, was convicted of four counts of bigamy and one count of criminal nonsupport of his 30 children in August 2001.

Besides his five-year sentence, he faces up to life in prison after being convicted of child rape for having sex with one of his five wives when she was 13.

"He preys on young girls," assistant Utah Attorney General Laura Dupaix said. "This case is about a man who marries young girls and calls it religion."

Polygamy was renounced by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1890 as part of a deal to grant Utah statehood, and the church now excommunicates those members who practice or advocate it. Polygamy has an estimated 30,000 practitioners in the West.

Re: Just as I predicted...
 

Why do you keep on linking gay marriage to beastiality and other forms of perversion?

This is not proof, this is only ONE case.

Re: Re: Just as I predicted...
 

For now its one case...but I'm pretty sure there will be more....Either I'm psychic or I made a pretty good prediction. IMO this court ruling will bring people out of the woodworks trying to form a marital union. I will agree to disagree...but only time will tell..

Re: Re: Re: Just as I predicted...
 

To Dionysis
Polygamy is a form of pervsion? On what basis? What makes it different?
(not that I agree with it, but for discussion purposes)

To All:
I agree with Love_Spell on this and brought up the polygamy situation pages ago. If people are going to try and redefine marriage, then you will HAVE to recognize other facets of it as well.

Just as there are those that say its not fair for the US to maintain a religious viewpoint as to what constitiutes a marriage, there will be others that say its not fair that for a marriage to only consist of two people.

Hey, maybe my idea to for the federal gov't to eliminate the "married" classification as it relates to the "single" classification will happen afterall.

Lovespell...goodness...one cannot begin to explain the many fallacies in your arguments because you automatically become too defensive to acknowledge them. I guess you will just forever remain closeminded, and unapologetically so.


(And I don't mean closeminded to homosexuality, I mean closeminded to any ideas/beliefs other than your own).

ETA: No one answered my question about one of their family members being gay...does anyone have any responses?

EAgainTA: I find it quite hypocritical for someone to say GOD IS THE ONE TRUE JUDGE, ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE US, yet in EVERY OTHER BREATH, one is judging a person/culture/lifestyle.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just as I predicted...
 

And if I may, I think that Dionysus was referring to the dramatic exclamation:

"As I predicted...the gay ruling will bring Out even more perverts... Next someone will want to marry their pet....or excuse me Canine American!!!...just watch!"

Librasoul22...if you have to resort to name calling...please do not continue to post...we're actually having a good discussion here. Needless to say I'm not responding to anything else you say since this is the way you're approaching the subject.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Just as I predicted...
 

Hey Honeykiss..
You asked Dionysus to respond..but I know that I made the statement and I'm not sure if you meant me...but I'll respond to it anyway.. I actually have Muslim friends that have been raised by a father and several moms...because Muslim men can do this according to their religion...and needless to say their perceptions of women and their roles are archaic IMO. I'm not sure if that's just them specifically...or that's what their religion teaches them. I just know that once you re-define marriage to include more than just a man and a woman...anything goes. There are craazies out there that will use this ruling to suit their lifestyles..whether its with six wives or an animal. I'm not sure why this is so shocking to people...especially since stuff like this comes up in the news from time to time....but before this court ruling it just wasn't a legal union. I guess polygamy falls more under immoral than perverted..but either way I just don't think the definition of marriage should've been changed from including ONLY a man and a woman...but oh well...

Either way..the court ruling has opened up the floodgates for this type of thing..this is just the beginning.

PS - Honeykiss..thanks for asking me to discuss how I felt vs. calling me a name or bashing me for my opinion!! Its getting pretty hot up in hurr over this topic ;) :)

I haven't read this thread. I'm not going to. I would like to live in a bubble where all black people realize that prejudice, regardless of what minority group it's targeted against, is ugly.

This is my opinion and I am not going to argue it: It is not my place to tell my friends that their relationships are less valid than mine, that their feelings are less valid than mine, simply because they feel it for someone of the same gender.

If it is not my place and I KNOW them, then it damn sure isn't yours or the governments.

To Libra:

Would I support my gay child if they wanted to get married to another man (or woman)?

The answer is no and my child would know the reason why. My child would also know that although I love him/her , that does not mean that I will support their lifestyle. Its no different to me than if my child was a drug addict or a prostitute or if they wanted to "shack up" with someone.

This is something that parents go through everyday (watching their child do things that they do not approve of). Disapproval does not mean "I don't love you anymore".

Honeykiss...you bring up a good point...this reminds me of a friend of mine who was a lesbian (temporarily) and her parents kicked her out of the house. I didn't understand why...and her mom told me that she loved her daughter...but she would not and could not condone the "sin" under her roof. If my friend wouldn't have invited her "lovers" to the house...they wouldn't have had a problem with it...but she said she wasn't allowing that in her house. Although back then I thought it was harsh...I understand her role as a Christian Mom. She said even if she was straight...she wouldn't allow a man to stay over night...so the issue was more so supporting the sin I guess.. She didn't cut her daughter off...but she said she had to go...

Well said, HK74. I concur 100 percent.

HELLO EVERYONE!!:D

I have not read the posts because YOU ALL are looooong winded. Glad to see discussion and what not. I am sure you all are arguing your points passionately. Remember hate the point not the person making the point. In other words, no name calling or belittling of others' POV that are contrary to yours.


2 fangas :p

No one is going to change their opinion nor should they. I respect everything said on this board. I respect those opposed to gay marriage for standing firm in their beliefs. I also respect those like myself who feel religion should be seperated from government. So I think we need a new thread, that debates if religion should be implemented into the law because bottom line, this debate is rooted in religion so why continue to go in circles. I have a new question for everybody.

Should religion ever be part of our government and the FUTURE policies of our country? How would you determine which religion should be implemented and why?

I am too lazy the read all 8 pages and most of you who know me know my feelings on homosexuality--to each his own, and I do not believe that true homosexuality is a choice one just makes. Thus I do not have a moral or religious objection to it.

The biggest issue I have with this is the government's interference. Since you do not have to get married by a minister or have a religious ceremony, I view the institution itself as basically a legal one, and the fact that only a "man" and a "woman" can legally marry is interesting. A gay man and a lesbian woman can marry with no problem. (And I know of many unions like this so that the two friends can receive the fiscal benefits of marriage.) This sets up a scenario where 2 gay lovers can each marry one of 2 lesbian lovers, set up house together and it is all legal.

But, for Bush to use religion as the basis of his opposition, in my opinion he is categorizing it is a religious establishment and violating the First Amendment.

Thank you for your post Doggystyle.

You must understand that homosxuality is not NECESSARILY a result of some sort of sexual abuse, nor are all homosexuals flamboyant.

The fact that you would attend the wedding of one of your gay family members or close friends speaks volumes about your character.

And I wasn't trying to link Christianity with a haterd of homosexuals, so I apologize if I was ambigious with me wording there.

Lovespell, I still fail to see anywhere in the thread where I have personally attacked you. If your defensiveness is going to prevent you from acknowledging any opinion contrary to your own, so be it. I am sorry that you won't be able to take anything from this thread you have started.

Honeykiss and Doggystyle thank you very much for your input from the other side of the argument. I have a much greater understanding of where you both are coming from.

Gay marriages
 

I just got back in town so I'm not quite up to speed but I want to throw out a few points.

(1)The reason those in favor of gay marriages want to get God out the equation is b/c once you put god out anything is free to come in.(which more then likely will be wicked,sinful)

(2)Can some one tell me if there is any religion that is in favor of homosexuality.

(3)If one takes out religion homosexuality still goes against nature

(4) Some one asked would I support a gay relative who was marrying their partner the answer would be no just b/c their my relative doesn't make a sin right.

Re: Gay marriages
 

So are you saying that if God is out of the equation then we are going to start having a muder free for all? You cannot compare homosexuality with muderers/theives-they are just not the same thing. I have had many gay friends and work with many gay people and they are just like me-they want or are in a loving relationship. They eat just like me breath just like me so why can't they get maried (or divorced) just like I can???

I am a Christian and I believe God wants us all to be happy and enjoy life and be loved. If that love happens to include the same sex then so be it. If there is a problem then let that person answer to God when the time comes, until then stay out of their business.

And BTW homosexulaity is in nature as proven by scientists using rats/mice. In veterinary school we learned about this in class so it is seen in nature.

Responses
 

I had a brother who struggled with his sexuality who died of AIDS and I have a gay cousin who is currently fighting a losing battle with AIDS. I know intimately about homosexuality. I have a choice in not choosing gay friends the way you have but you can't choose your family. This has taught we a great lesson in that I love my family and no illness or sexual orientation can change that but I still disagree with the lifestyle.

My brother was accosted by a gay male as a teenager and this confused his sexuality. I never knew that he was a "down low" brother til he was diagnosed. My opinion of him never changed, nor did I love him less.

My gay cousin was "normal" til he was 21 and decided to come out of the closet. Same guy I chased girls with, bought Playboy magazines with etc. Next day he's wearing pink hotpants and sneakers and two snappin' it up. I was confused and bewildered and felt betrayed. He was no longer the cousin that I grew up with but a stranger that I didn't know. Our friendship was over and our lives went in two separate directions. If he gave me an invitation to a gay wedding, I would not attend.

LIBRASOUL, we all make assumptions because they require less thought and usually favor our point of view, but CHRISTIANS do not "hate" homosexuals, nor do they want to impose their religion on others. When Christians express their opinions, those opinions have to be based on the word of God in order to be valid. Christians fully recognize that this is a secular country, but that does not mean that their opinions have to be secular as well, nor to be discarded when they become inconvenient for the anything goes crowd. What the secular crowd hates the most about a COMMITTED Christian is that they cannot be swayed by popular opinion or a feel good opinion. I love my gay family members (I have a lesbian cousin as well) and nothing could ever change that, but a marriage is a religious institution that has been secularized, just like Christmas has become.

Lastly, for those who are not Biblical scholars or do not quite comprehend it, please stop choosing bits and pieces of scripture to condemn or support an argument. It only causes confusion. The reason why "beastiality" is mentioned with homosexuality in Love Spells argument is because in the Mosaic law concerning sexual conduct that God finds abominable, there are three main ones, incest, bestiality, and homosexuality. Your argument is not with Love Spell on this but with God.

Doggystyle...thanks for the wonderful post. You can be so thorough sometimes ;) Also, thanks for backing up some of the points I was making with a little more clarity. I too had an uncle to die from AIDS who was homosexual, so I have the same relation to the subject. Like HOneykiss said though, disagreeing with what someone does, doesn't mean I don't love you anymore.



And to answer your question Wonderful08

Should religion ever be part of our government and the FUTURE policies of our country? How would you determine which religion should be implemented and why?

I really dont think it matters where there is an actual "decision" or "agreement" of whether religion should be a part of our government. This country is too far gone down the secular path for that to happen anyway. However, because you still have PEOPLE that make and carry out laws, there opinions, morals etc. will be carried out with decisions they make. A person can be atheist, but still be pro life, against affirmative action, etc..and these themes will be seen in the policies they try to enforce. Therefore, if a person is a Christian (not a part time Christan) naturally they are going to try to enforce policies that coincide with that they believe in..

So I dont think its a matter of determining what religion to implement, it depends on the individuals...

And last but not least...AXEAM, you seem like a pretty intelligent brother...please post often!! And to comment on your post, you're so right that getting God out of everything is the goal...Aren't you glad you know which side of this spiritual warfare you are on ?! ;)

Lovespell
First thanks for the kind words..I read a lot of your posts and your not bad yourself;) ...and yes I'm glad that I'm on the right side.What puzzles me is that so many of those who disagree w/ what we're saying are using words like "hate and judgment" when in fact we don't hate or judge them,we just state our points.


aggie AXO
I don't know you said your a christian but support same-sex unions...............isn't that like being a strict vegetarian but always eating pork chops.

LOL! I was thinking the same EXACT thing bruh!