You know what this argument reminds me of? When somebody really young dies and people say that God called them home. I can't stand that. We talked about it in my Theology class and I agreed entirely with what my professor said: "What kind of cruel God would take an eight year old boy away from his family?"

Re: Start a new thread for that one...
 

I think that argument fits well into this thread. Abortion will always be a heavily debated topic. If you would like to start a new thread be my guest.

Dude, who are you? Who are you to make any type of assumption about me and my life? I"m quite offended that you think that any woman who gets pregnant just wants to go out and "party." Excuse me, but I'm 32 years old and in a committed relationship, and quite frankly haven't done much "partying" for years.

I can't "handle" a baby quite frankly because I don't want one. You haven't done anything to make me understand your viewpoint. It's morally wrong according to WHOM? According to YOU, as best I can tell, and you seem to think that is reason enough to impose YOUR morals on OTHER people.

I will tell you what kind...
 

The kind that wants to put someone to the test. I do not believe that this is the only life we will live, but a mere test. If you are an athiest, sorry, you cannot expect the rest of the world to live w/out caring about their God. What kind of cruel God would crucify his own son on a cross? It is deeper than that. Did you argue w/ your prof., or just take his word as scripture. You will blindly follow your prof., but not the son of God?

Chill out, I was using a hypothetical "you". I did not say Moral, I said ethical. There is a difference. Also, I just wanted a debate, not a fight. Sorry if I offended you, Im out

The problem I have with your "argument" is that you are just coming at this from a Christian perspective and you expect that to be reason enough to impose your morals on others. Not everyone here is Christian, and also just because someone is not Christian does not mean that she is an atheist. There *are* other religions.

Browncat I would have PMed you, but it seems that I can't.

Can you please put quotes or the name of who you are replying to in your posts. I am having some difficulty figuring out who you are responding to.

Your last post had a comment about a professor but that comment was made by GeekyPenguin, but it seems that you were responding to Valkyrie.

Just a suggestion so we can continue our intellectual debate in a civilized manner.

Thankyou.

You are right. I am sorry. It is hard to look at things from another perspective. I am sorry that I offended you. I tried to make it clear w/ my little "disclaimer". It is a hard thing to argue, and it always ends in a fight. Maybe I will go back to talking about Slamball with the guys. I respect your opinion. Peace.

Well obviously, they would not run the risk of having an unwanted pregnancy, so they don't have to take that precaution or be prepared for the consequence of a child. I don't know about the others who have stated opinions similar to mine, but I for now that sex is NOT just for procreation! Sure, it's fun, it feels good, all that stuff. And people have sex hoping they won't get pregnant, but sometimes do. All I'm saying is if someone can't deal with the consequence, then don't get in a situation where you might have to face it. That doesn't mean you have to raise and provide for that child for the next 18+ years. Adoption is a VERY respectable alternative. There are so many wonderful people who cannot have children of their own that would love to be in the shoes of those with unwanted pregnancies. Many would make incredible parents.

On a side note, if I say "you" it's not directed towards anyone in particular.

Re: I will tell you what kind...
 

I'm not sure what religion you are, but in my church we don't interpret the Bible literally, thank goodness. I did agree with him - he's an Anglican priest, by the way. I also believe in universal salvation - want to tear into that next?

No Geeky Penguin, I am out of my league, I am waiving a white flag. Didn't want to start any fights, I am not a soap box type of guy. I don't want any enemies and I am sorry. I am glad I got some new points of view. I just wanted to open my mind.

I respect your opinion as well, and this is a hard topic to really debate because we all have our own opinions and I don't think that any of them are going to change.

Possible physical damage, feelings of guilt (these have occurred in girls I know that had no religious convictions and were pro-choice who had had abortions, it is a life. What part in it's conception did the baby have? No part. It is a result of an act carried out by the parents. And for the record, religious reasons are as valid as the others.

I believe that as soon as you consent to sex, you are accepting the possible risks. Pregnancy is one of these risks. Women are built so that they can carry a child to term, and there are so many changes that occur both physically and emotionally. You seem to be a strong person; why should you not be able to deal with something that much weaker women have had to deal with? I don't think that having to accept consequences of our decisions and actions (action: I have sex, possible consequence: I get pregnant) is forcing someone to do something.

Absolutely, if I didn't want children. No life is being terminated.

I hope none of this was offensive. I do think it is possible for people's opinions and beliefs to change, but only when confronted with hard evidence or when facing the situation themself, and possibly by seeing another close to them go through the situation.

Maybe. My best friend in college (we're not friends any more but for other reasons) had three abortions. I went with her to the first one. Do you want to know the truth? I'm glad she did it. I was friends with her for years after that, and I never saw how she was traumatized by having an abortion. I think that it was the right choice for her, although I do find it more than just a little pathetic that she didn't learn from the first experience and did it not once but twice more.

Whether or not I'm a strong person isn't so much the issue. The issue is that I do not (now or ever) want children. Does that mean that I should never have sex? Seriously, that's just not an option. Like I mentioned before, I would be quite happy to be permanently sterilized if I could find a willing doctor and the money. Any health consequences that resulted from that would be more appealing to me than getting prengant, EVER. I think that with many women, the issue is WHEN to have kids and it's not the end of the world if that happened earlier rather than later, but that's not the case with me.

I think that prohibiting a woman from terminating an unwanted pregnancy IS forcing her to carry a child and give birth.

There are only two ways for an abortion decision to be made. The woman can make it. Or the government can make it for her.

When we make statements like, "She should be able to have an abortion under circumstance X, but not circumstance Y," what that means in practice is that in circumstance X, we leave the decision to the woman, and in circumstance Y THE GOVERNMENT makes the decision about who will bear a child and who will not. Is that a power the government ought to have?

Think about the last few presidents. Do you trust them to make personal moral judgments on your behalf? Do you think that they are such extraordinary experts on moral questions that they will do a better job than YOU will?

MTSUgirl, religious reasons are certainly as valid as the others when you are making moral judgments -- for example, when you are making your own decisions, or when you are arguing that abortion is morally wrong.

But religious reasons are NOT as valid as the others when the topic of discussion is what the LAW ought to be. "God says it's bad" is not a valid reason to outlaw something in this country. (After all, my God says abortion is OK, so we're at an impasse.) If you want to convince people who don't share your religious beliefs, you're going to have to come up with something else. Some religions hold that meat is murder; should we pass a law requiring everyone to be vegetarian? Talk public health, talk greater good, talk about the Constitution, or else accept that you're not going to change anybody's mind.

Also, several people pointed out that abortion carries emotional risks...e.g., sadness on what would have been the baby's birthday. Do you think birth moms who give their babies up don't experience guilt and loss? For that matter, don't women who keep their babies take on an enormous emotional burden? If you're pregnant, these are the only options. Every single one carries serious emotional risks.

Ivy, J.D.

I have had TWO! Is there a problem!:mad:

You dont even want to Know!:mad:

Then what would you say about rape? The victim did not choose to be raped. That's part of the definition of rape - the victim did not consent.

If you go back and read my first post in this thread, you will see I definitely know the definition of rape. The whole thing talked about my rape and about me being terrified I was pregnant.

FINALLY!!!
 

You'd know more than I do!!! Finally, someone who KNOWS the law...

Re: Yes, I am a male.
 

Have you or do you have children? If yes, then were these children a "planned" pregnancy? If unplanned, what made you feel the need to "stay" with the woman and be a father to your children?

I ask, because I want to try to understand what goes through a man's mind when he finds out he has just impregnanted a woman that he is not 1) married to, 2) did not want a relationship with or 3) does not want children--ever.

Your observations sound reasonable to me. The fact is, no matter what, you are connected with this "woman" who you got "caught-up" and your genetic material is perpetually passed on and running around for the REST of your natural life...

Many women just cannot bear the look on their "man's" face when it must be told to the guy, that "suprise" you are going to be a father--most especially the pregnancy was unplanned and/or unwanted... I know, that if I was not in a stable, marital relationship and I had gotten pregnant and had to tell some of the fools I was dating, that after all the tears, I just would not want the ultimate in rejection for a man to be pissed off with me because I am carrying something he helped to create...

But then, again, that's a societal "implant" that all of us have been taught under a Judao-Christian control media...

Some women with alternative thinking come with the idea that children are a gift of the Spirit, that all life is blessed and sacred. To remove that blessing, depends upon the spirit of that blessing--for that matter a curse... Remember Hagar--and the Earthly Jeruselam... Ultimately, if one believes in a God and understands the Universe in its totality, then don't you all think that God can stop all things from occuring in the first place??? Have some faith...

Re: Re: Yes, I am a male.
 

Re: Re: Re: Yes, I am a male.
 

Let's make beautiful wine!!! :D

for some people religious reasons may be valid but not for me. Just b/c if I had gotten pregnant and had an abortion does not mean I am weak. I am strong enough to know what I can handle and what I can't and having a child in college is not something I could handle and I would never judge another woman to be weak if they chose to terminate the pregnancy.

for all of those that are against abortion are you going to adopt children to eliminate or at least decrease the number of children in orphanages (especially minority babies)? If the answer is no then maybe you should re-think your stance.

I go both ways when it comes to this topic.

I've always been Pro Choice for a variety of reasons. The main reason has always been that I do not believe it is anyone's right to tell me what to do with my body. But having friends and more experiences in my life (as opposed to when I was in high school)...I can clearly see that given the option, I do not think I PERSONALLY would ever have one. However I wouldn't look down on anyone who did. I just don't feel that abortion is a means to birth control.

I've had this similar conversation with my mom, who is also Pro Choice, and my father who is not. And the one thing I said that I think struck a pulse somewhere in my father was this:
Dad, imagine if I or my sister or mom were raped. How would you feel about that? Would that change your mind at all? And for someone who was very much Pro Life he sorta took it all in and I think saw my point. I mean, if any woman is raped why should she be expected to carry that baby to term if it causes her emotional heartache and scrutiny? Is that fair? Not in my eyes.

But once again, these are just my thoughts. People are free to disagree.

Not to get personal, but I do plan to adopt a child when the time comes, as well as support alternate programs that would help women in this situation (my previous post has references to this).

Well, since I am pro-life for religious reasons which is more than enough law for me, I'll bow out of the conversation and hope that it continues to remain civil. :D

I am glad to see that are going to adopt, anyone else?
BTW I plan to adopt also.

I signed up with a different screen name to post this. I am a regular poster on GC and didn't want to come out with this to everyone.

I have had an abortion. I was 19 and the man was a close friend of mine. We had just gone through a tramatic experience together, and we were very emotional. So while we were consoling each other one night, we began to kiss and one thing led to another. I was on the pill, he used a condom, and yet four weeks later, I found out I was with child.
I was devastated. My parents did not know that I had ever been with a man at all, and yet this had happened. I called him and his exact words were "well, what are you going to do? and before you decide let me just tell you, if you choose to have this child I will not be there, I will pay child support, but I will not help you raise it. And remember you will be ruining that childs life, my life and your life."
That is what I had to hear before I made a HUGE decision. I was raised Catholic, my father was very religious- not to mention I am an only child. I couldn't face going to them and telling them this news, and alone, since he was not willing to be there for me. I called my best friend and she came over, we talked for a long time. My parents would have thrown me out- I know for a fact. I was so upset. But in the end I found that it was the right decision for ME.
Oh, and by the way it is NOT cheap to get this done. He called his uncle, who is a SENATOR and borrowed money. It was $500. I was 10 weeks along- you can't have it done before 6 and after 12 it changes to a different form. When they did the ultrasound they found some problems with the baby- he wasn't developing right- but that was irrelavant.
I have never regretted my decision. I have never dwelled on it. I haven't been tortured or beaten by it. I wonder what God will say when I come to him on my judgement day- but I know that it will be HIM that decides my fate, not any one else, not any Pro Life person. I have asked his forgiveness and prayed that I was making the right decision.
I believe I did. The other women that were there- there were 10 in all- were not what you would have expected. One was a younger woman than I was- only 14, her mother had to come with her and sign a form. One woman was married and had 4 children. They couldn't financially afford another one, her husband was with her. One woman was a prostitute, strung out on drugs, her pimp had given her the money. I didn't speak with the other women.
Now, you can flame me or ask questions, and I will answer as best as I can. I only ask that no one here judge me. I thought a different perspective would help.
And also, just for the record, I always said I was prochoice, but couldn't do it myself. And I will never have another one, unless I am raped. I feel now I am old enough, more mature and capable of raising a child, with or without a man to help.

***Hugs*** to you, allwoman. Thanks for sharing your story.

Definitely hugs to you! I sent you a PM! :)

Thank you, AllWoman. Your story is an important one and I hope it helps open some eyes.


I figured I'd throw in my $.02, here.

I am pro-choice. I am also the product of a teenage pregnancy (my mom was 16, my father was 17). My father wanted my mom to have an abortion and he said he would have no part of raising me, but she refused. She was terrified about what would happen, and didn't even have the courage to tell her mother until she was 6 months along, but she knew that she wanted to keep me. Luckily, my grandmother was very supportive and things worked out for the best. I know that life has not been very easy for my mom, and I know that she never regrets having me, but I also know that she probably would have been better off not being a mother at 16. Now, everytime I joke about being an "accident," she tells me that although I was a surprise, that I should never feel that I was unwanted. I know this is true, because she was able to choose to have me, and it wasn't a decision that was forced on her.

my view may be a little unorthodox, but i have held it for a long time.

i truly believe that anyone who wants to stop a woman from aborting a fetus should be FORCED to adopt at least one child in their lifetime. if they think they have the right to decide someone's life, they should be forced to deal with the consequences of that action, i.e.--the baby. if the mother does not want/cannot have the child, it may very well end up in an orphanage or foster care. how is that fair for that poor child to be unwanted??? of course some get adopted--my own cousin was adopted. but what about the thousands who have no family, no home, no future!!!??? even if it is 1% of babies that don't get adopted--those are CHILDREN!!! so make the pro-lifers adopt those unwanted children. if someone can open their mouths to stop a woman from aborting her fetus, they should open their home to that child who may otherwise wind up parentless.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has posted in this thread. It's nice to read a thread on GC of depth that hasn't turned into a flame war. I respect and appreciate everyone's opinions. I'm glad to see that we have remained civilized, This is a very intense and emotional subject. So thanks everyone.

Also, thanks to AllWoman for sharing her story with us.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled civilized debate. :)

I really don know why I am posting on this thread.

I had a son once! I never have met him thanks to my mother. Bless her Sole!

I have tried to find him ever since. To No avail! She was a mine
for a short period of time.

A Christmas Eve Son. Is this hard, yes it is everytime It comes around!

The decision to have a Child is up to the indiduals who may be having or not a baby!

There are circumstsances that may be not under the control of the people involved.

A lot depends on what the reason was, or is why not to have a Baby!

To This day, I love Kids, Dogs, Cats, but will never have any living with me!

I lived with a Lady From Tenn. who I took Her Daughter under my wing! Flew to Ca. to Snatch and grab the 2 cutest Little Girls!

Had them for 2 years! Went back to Ca. to fight in a Court Battle to keep them! I lost!

So dont anyone ever tell me about Kids!

If you want to have Sex, be prepared to have what you get!

Sorry, It did strike a cord with me!:(

Allwoman--

Firstly, I am truly supportive of your choice you made in your life. I am sure that it was one of the toughest decisions you have EVER had to make...

Secondly, NEVER EVER be ashamed of what has happened in your life and the choices you had to make at the given time--at least YOU HAD THE CHOICE TO EVEN MAKE!!! Some women NEVER get that chance--much less their choices get made for them...

Lastly, the man who impregnated you is an a$$wipe regardless of how you BOTH came around to getting you pregnant. That is my opinion. Given ALL that you were going through, how the HELL is he going to say some crap he said to you--yeah, you'd ruin your life--whatever!!! So, what's that supposed to mean?? WTF!!! So, the feelings that you had are nothing but "ruined"???

That's what bothers me--it like, OH, so like it was okay that y'all slept together, but the repercussions of that one night were too much for him to bear now??? Bullisht!!!

I'da tell 'em BE A MAN and STEP UP!!!

IT HAS ALWAYS TAKEN 2 TO TANGO--SINCE THE DAWN OF SEXUAL REPRODUCTION IN EITHER RELIGIOUS CONVICTION OR EVOLUTION!!!



And for the other ladies under similar circumstances, let me ask you this:

Are all guys buttholes when you have to tell them the consequences of both of your actions?

'Cuz I'm seeing a little trend here and to me, IMO, it's foul!!!

I'm kind of torn on this issue, not that I have any personal experience with it. Everyone knows that I believe that a woman should have the right to choose whether to have an abortion or not. In an ideal world, she and the man responsible will discuss this together and come up with a solution that is satisfactory to both of them, whether it be abortion, keep the baby and stay together, keep the baby and one of them takes it or adoption. The final decision, however, as to whether to have the baby or not should be up to the woman. I feel very strongly that a man should not be able to prevent a woman from having an abortion because he wants the baby.

I wonder though -- if a woman chooses to give birth and keep the baby knowing that the man didn't want it, is it really fair to demand that he give $$$ to the baby when it wasn't his decision to keep it? Of course I would hope that a man would take responsibility and be a father and all that, but doesn't it seem unfair, if a woman has a right to choose, to say that a man doesn't and has to live with whatever the woman decides? What if the woman was desperate to get pregnant and lied about being on the pill and poked holes in condoms? I don't know if stuff like that ever happens, but it wouldn't shock me.

No I don't think all guys are buttholes when it comes to this situation. A friend of mine got his girlfriend pregnant. She decided she was going to keep the child. My friend decided to be a man and stepup and take responisbility for his actions. Well this girl gave him a hard time and a half. She was trying to get ridiculous amounts of child support (much much more than he was able to afford) and she wouldn't let him see his little girl. This was girl was the typical Jenny Jones kind of gilr. At first she didn't know who the father was and had him and another guy thinking they were both the father until they finally got a paternity test done. I could see how much this hurt him. All he wanted to do was try to be a father to this little girl and the mother wouldn't let him.

So no, not all guys are buttholes. It's unfortunate that all we hear about are the ones that are.

it is a rough decision. reading through this thread, i still cant say whether abortion is right or wrong. it is hard sometimes being in the church and being taught somethings. i have learned that you really have to decide for yourself what you want to believe and let no one sway your decision. i am okay with those new florida license plates that says 'choose life'.... cause of freedom of speech. but i cannot stand those bumper stickers that seem to scream 'abortion is murder!!!!!!!!!' with illustrations. to me, that is crossing the line. we dont fully understand what these women go through. what if a woman that was extremely successful going through college and was suddenly raped and impregnated. do we really have the audacity to judge her if she decided to have an abortion? we need to think before we speak.

Most of time, the guy is blasted away by the news of impregnating a woman that he puts her off...

If a woman chooses abortion, then without paying outta the yin-yang, there is some time limit...

So basically from what I understand from friends of mine that had these decisions to make, there is no such thing as an "ideal world"...

Now, that is an area I am quite familiar with being one the opposite side... I was the girlfriend of a man who got another woman pregnant and played the "ghetto games 2000"...

You cannot get that kind of law entertainment with what happens in the "real courtroom"... Chit happens...

I mostly see this happing to women 30+--the biological clock explosive devices. These women make sure they take the ovulation test before they sleep with a man... And because usually, everyone is older, then money can get flown around much more easily... These women DO NOT plan on getting pregnant by some luser... The PLAN on getting pregnant by someone WHO CAN PAY CHILD SUPPORT... Either way, the unsuspecting man has no clue what is about to happen... Let's just say, he is thinking with his "extremities"...

Now a pimp, don't give a dayum about a ho and her problems. If he's a Mac, then that beeaitch best be out on da street to make that $$$...

But most of time, a man that is a contributing member of society with no criminal history and just ain't thinkin'--I feel so sorry for those fellows...

At any rate, most of those kind women do not get abortions...

Moreover, I just cannot tell you the NUMBERS OF WOMEN I KNOW WHO PLAY THIS GAME!!!

The Ghetto Game 2000--It's just skrait ghhhhheeeeettttwwwwoooo!!!!

These are NOT the "innocent" get raped and pregnant ladies... Nor are they the immature, young teenagers... NOOOOOOO, these are the women who DO KNOW WHERE BABIES COME FROM and choose to be sex addicts--I guess... I ain't talkin' bout messed up birth control pill women... I'm talking 'bout those, those--chicks--that have to have a baby from God knows who then wonder why there is domestic violence...

What is worse is that these women just could care less about getting Sexually Transmitted Infections, like AIDS (HIV) and others...

Then what do you think will happen to the poor child that didn't ask to be there...