Originally posted by xo_kathy
Thank you, honeychile! That's it!

I enjoyed the rest of your post as well.

Thank you! :)

And I would like to say I am proud of us that we are keeping it to a "this is what I believe" type of a discussion and not a "See, that's where you ___(insert religion here)___ are so wrong!!!" discussion! :D

I totally agree!

We're all adults (I would hope), and know that there's a time & place for everything. We shouldn't feel threatened by someone talking about their spiritual journey, but be glad that they took the trip!

This is a topic close to my heart so forgive me if I ramble.

I come from a large family of Catholics and was born into the Catholic church myself. My family is French Catholic, Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, and my mom's many cousins and relatives by marriage are mostly Italian Catholic. St. Louis is a really Catholic city so that's not at all unusual.

My mom was married briefly after dropping out of college and because she was married in the Catholic church she would have had to get an annulment to marry again -- but she believes in taking responsibility for your actions and acknowledging your mistakes, so saying that the awful marriage (that lasted less than a year) didn't even happen went against her personal beliefs. Instead she got a divorce. When she met my dad (also Catholic, obviously) they couldn't get married in the Catholic Church so they were married in a Lutheran church. I was still baptized and raised Catholic because both my parents believed in the fundamental tenets (mostly) and because it was such a tradition.

When it came to be time for my first Reconciliation (aka confession) and Communion, my entire class at the parish school I went to all did it together, in the spring of second grade. We spent most of the semester learning about what it meant and why we did it and all that. My parents and my extended family supported me and though I don't think I was necessarily my choice, it wasn't something unusual -- we went to Mass frequently and I went to Catholic school, after all. Well the parish priest at that time told my parents that they weren't welcome at the service when I received my Communion because they were living in sin and both my brother and I were therefore bastards. :mad:

So very shortly after that we left the Catholic church. (Sidenote: my godmother, who was also my aunt, looked into getting legal custody because my parents were leading me down the path of evil by taking me out of the Church. She didn't get it.) My parents looked around and eventually found the Episcopal (Anglican) church and realized that the fundamental similarities of belief were there but that the church as a whole was a lot more open-minded in its beliefs.

Making the transition from Catholicism to Anglicanism isn't difficult, so it sort of meshed well with the beliefs I'd already been forming. My church has confirmation at the end of 8th grade, and I went through believing as much as a 12 year old can believe, which I think is probably enough.

I still attend church, albeit less frequently because of some personal problems with the parish I grew up in. I went to Catholic grade school and high school, and I believe that, in the absence of a protestant denominational school compatible with my beliefs, Catholic school will also be my choice for my children. I have a fondness for the Catholic church but my beliefs are more in line with the Episcopal church ( as someone said, it really is Catholic light in many ways).

I believe that I can spread the Good News of the Gospels without saying 'you're wrong, be a Christian.' I have had more success in forming relationships with those of other faiths and making them more open to the concepts of Christianity by being a good Christian (well, sometimes, I'm hardly perfect) than by being a good converter. Additionally, questioning your faith and the faith of your religious leaders can often be a good way to a deeper understanding of the faith of both of you.

I also believe that structure (Catholic/religious schools, formal language in worship, rules on when you can take certain sacraments) are helpful. I have two young adopted sisters and an adopted brother. My sister, after 3 months in the U.S., who was raised pseudo-Jewish, spoke very little English, and had pretty much no idea what was going on, was led by her Sunday school teachers into taking Communion "because all the other kids in her grade are doing it." That really upset me -- I think that until you have some sort of idea what's going on (even if you can't get all of the deeper sacramental meaning of it) you have no business taking a sacrament.

But that's just me. I could be wrong. :)

~~Greekgrrl

Your entire post was great but I really wanted to put an "AMEN" on this part!

I think the difference is forcing your religion on others.... look at it this way:
Do you know the basic tenets of Judaism? or Islam?
Then you have heard their "word" but no-one forced you to accept their faith as the true faith.
The problem is the fundamentalists in every religion that try to force their views and beliefs on others the force (verbal, written, physical, or mental). It is these people that give the other followers of a faith a bad name: for example Islam.

Absolutely, Rob. People are usually most upset with the screaming, yelling guy we've all had on our campus telling us we are going to hell for being Greek! :rolleyes:

My post was mostly pointed at ZTAMiami and Geeky Penguin who claimed that Catholics do not proselytize. I was pointing out that a teaching of basic Christianty - regardless of denomination - is to do just that. So while the Catholics may not be the type who "shove it down your throat" so to speak, they are indeed supposed to profess their faith to others. (P.S. Ladies - no offense meant, just trying to be accurate :) )

Okay - so this will be long, but please read because I am looking for some answers to some questions - thanks!

First of all, I was raised Protestant (Wesleyan denomination) -- I was baptized as a baby as was "normal" for all babies in the faith. My DH (dear hubby) on the other hand was raised Catholic - and his parents define the word DEVOUT (Websters definition - Devout - see picture of Mr. AXO Alum's parents).

Well, DH was never so "pure" regardless of what mamma thought - he would go to Mass with them when he was home, but that was about it. When it came time for us to get serious about marriage (and we did live together before which didn't score any points for me with mamma) DH and I had the talk about religion. I didn't care what we believed, as long as it involved the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and we could raise our children in our faith (although allowing them to choose for themselves when they become able to do so) -- but I did have MAJOR issues with the Catholic faith (same for DH) - so we started "shopping" for churches. Now that sounds so cold, but we did - we wanted to know what we were getting into, and was it something that we could raise our kids up believing.

Well we tried the Southern Baptist route - sheesh! Apologies to any SB's out there who DON'T belong to a cult, but this one extremely large church we attended (10,000 plus members) was just ridiculous. The pastor had no qualms in saying "women you will bow down to your man and serve him" -- which I (not being a feminist by any stretch) couldn't stomach -- marriage (to us) is a PARTNERSHIP not a form of slavery. And the kicker that got us to leave this place was (they have these huge screens on either side so people can see - think about PTL and the Jim Baker days) that one day during the service he showed a "film" that showed the most disgusting things -- it was a bunch of clips from gay rallies that were, not to offend anyone, shocking -- but what I mean by that is that he deliberately PICKED the worst clips out there -- there were no quiet, hand-holding couples -- there were people naked and performing lewd acts, people chained to a fence and making mockeries of sexual acts, etc. It was HORRIBLE -- I thought if I had kids in here, I would expect an apology from this man. But then he goes on to say "THESE ARE THE LOWEST OF THE LOW -- AND THE ONLY PEOPLE LOWER THAN THESE PEOPLE ARE THOSE HAVING SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE" -- well let me tell you - we left. Not because our toes were stepped on, but because I don't believe that church is a place to CONDEMN. You should lift up people and show them that God loves them and can forgive them and lead them.

Anyway -- so we finally found the United Methodist Church who sent us the neatest info with their motto "Open Heart, Open Minds, Open Doors" which is SO us! We love our church and feel that, like the Hard Rock Cafe slogan, its "love all serve all" which is what we feel we should do as Christians. Plus, they consider one baptism as "enough" -- which was great, since we both felt it was inappropriate to be re-baptised, and disrespectful to our parents.

Okay - so back to the Catholic thing -- mamma is ready to throw herself off a cliff with the shame that her precious (only) child has been living in sin, and is now going to join a Protestant church. She still hasn't recovered! Now granted, we do go to Mass with them when we visit. We have no problems going and being respectful. She does not usually go to church with us though.

We have been pretty okay with it until Eli came along, and dad-in-law and I had a heated discussion. He wanted to know if Eli would be baptised or just "dedicated" -- I said "baptised" -- he said "good because if he isn't, and he dies before he is, he won't go to heaven" -- well that just burned my grits and toast -- I was LIVID about that statement. So I point blank said to him "Any religion that believes an innocent child will not go to heaven, is a religion that I don't want any part of" -- and he says "well, its not that he won't go to heaven, but he won't be in the sight of God -- its like [yes he said this] going to a ball game and instead of having floor seats, you would have the really high, nosebleed seats where you can't see very well" -- I was like WTH?! Literally!

So questions here...and not meant to sound snotty, but I like others have always had a very "closed-door" impression of the Catholic church when it comes to my questions --

1) Is that true? Do Catholics believe that a child will not "be in the sight of God" if they aren't baptised?

2) Do Catholics still believe that the Pope, even as a man, is infallible?

3) Why can't a non-Catholic take communion? It is my belief/opinion that Jesus welcomes anyone to His table -- why do Catholics think that only other Catholics can receive?

4) Explain confession -- I agreed with whomever said "why not cut out the middle man" although they went on to say the priest explained it, I wanna know what the explanation is.

5) Why is Mary worshipped? DH says she isn't "worshipped" but I think differently based on the sayings that they use, and have seen people give "gifts" to the Virgin Mary statues in church. I thought this would fall under the "no other gods before me" category.

I have a ton more - I really do want to get a better understanding of this faith so that if a problem arises between my MIL again (which I am sure it will) that I will have an informed opinion.

ChitownXO, I may need to PM you since you have already given me some great info on here! Thanks!

Although I am by no means a perfect Catholic, I'll try to answer a few questions....

First, technically Catholics don't worship Mary in a god-like sense. We venerate her as the mother of Jesus. She is the holiest of all women, and we treat her as such.

Catholics don't allow Protestants to take Communion because it implies a unity that technically isn't there. I was always told that the Protestants in the congregation are to pray that one day the schism will be healed.

I've always been taught that the Pope isn't infallible, except in matters of theology. I don't know that I 100% believe this, but there ya go.

In Confession, as explained to me a couple of days before my confirmation, the priest acts as an intercessor for you. You go to Confession to confess sins, and then you and the priest pray together. You do a penace (usually a prayer, although I once had to be nicer to Mr. Chitownxo's mom - which is really hard!) I will say that the times I force myself to go, I do feel better about things. It's nice to have someone to talk about things that you're not really proud of...so much cheaper than a therapist!

It is techinically part of our mission to spread the word, so to speak. I have no desire to convert anyone...I figure if anyone else wants to become a Catholic, they'll ask me, and I can point them in the right direction.

As for the non-baptised child, according to my father who is busily quoting the Baltimore Cathecism to me as we speak, there was never an official Catholic dogma that taught that the child would go to hell. It's not spelled out...according to my father the Super-Catholic, a non-baptised child does not go to hell, and it was never a teaching that they would. Hell, when translated, means absence from God, so I think that's a missunderstanding.

If anyone else has any questions, I'll answer them as best as I can. If you feel more comfortable PM-ing me, that's cool too.

My next door neighbors were devout catholics and I think the way they explained it (it's been a while) is that unbaptized babies are sort of in limbo or purgatory or something. Not in hell or heaven. Still that's sad. What is the Catholic belief on people who are insane or mentally handicapped? Will they go to heaven or hell and why? Just curious.

Purgatory is no longer an official teaching of the Catholic church. I have heard that it never was, but I'm not sure which is the correct version. From what I do know, the concept of purgatory came about as an answer to the question, "What if I'm neither good, nor bad where do I go?" Hey, you're going to purgatory...a kind of netherworldish waiting room where you wait for your sins to be forgiven. The custom of selling indulgences, buying your or a loved one's way out of purgatory, started from this belief. Indulgences were a way for the corrupt clergy in the Middle Ages, (and I don't think it will offend anyone to say that a lot of the clergy were corrupt...drawn to the church for monetary rather than theological reasons).

That said, I can tell you what I've been told, and what I personally believe: if we really believe in a loving God who loves his children, do we really think that he would allow an innocent not to come home to him?

chitownxo - thank you SO much -- I really appreciate your "answers" as best as you were taught. I think that it shows the difference in teachings (albeit subtle sometimes) -- amongst ALL types of faith.

I have to admit that the Mary thing bothers me -- to see people putting flowers at the feet of her statue during Mass was just weird to me. And praying to her to intercede on our behalf (isn't that the way it goes?) is weird to me too. I don't mean "weird" as in "freaks!" -- I mean "weird" as in "not understood" -- believe me, I would like to learn more, and its not my intent to insult people. I just feel like (to me) its like people put her right up there with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit -- and that just isn't what I was taught growing up, so therefore, it is a foreign idea to me.

As for Confession - that was a good answer - I haven't thought about it that way before. And yes, the old "you have to pay the church for your sins" stereotype WAS taught to me by my parents (who really don't know much about the faith either) -- so its good to know that I can now tell my mom that that isn't true.

Thanks to your dad for his input too :) And I loved your quote:

I will have to PM you sometime and find out about your having to be nice to Mr. chitownxo's mom -- sounds VERY familiar although opposite! If she were to confess her dislike of me in Confession, she'd be there ALL week at least - LOL! She has a very dear family friend who is a priest, and I think that she "uses" him as her permanent confidante for confession -- although he lives several states away, I have no doubt that more than one phone call to him has been in regards to me -- once he even bought Mr. AXO Alum a "Saint" figurine bearing the saint he is named after. He said to her (he didn't know I was standing behind him) "give this to him - let him know that we will find a way to get him" meaning "get him back" I assumed - by that time he caught on that I was standing there...oops!

AXO Alum - I'm glad I was able to answer some of your questions. Theology always was my favorite subject. In fact, I'm looking into going to graduate school and pursuing a masters in theology. I don't want to preach (I so do not have the talent for that!), but I'd like to teach comparative religions at the college level.

I understand what you mean about the Mary thing. When my brother got married, he and his wife had a traditional Catholic ceremony. During the ceremony, there's a part where Kathy (my sister-in-law) went up to Mary's alter, lit a candle, said a prayer, and then re-joined my brother. It was hard to explain to the non-Catholics in the congregation about that one. It did look like she was taking a break from all the standing she had to do.

Quite right that Mary isn't worshipped; rather, as I understand it, she is honored as a mother, and specifically as Jesus' mother.

As I recall from my Catholic education, they consider that there is a special place in heaven for the unbaptized who never had a chance to learn about Christianity. This would include children who died before being baptized, people who lived in remote locations where Christianity had not been introduced, etc.

The "official" Jewish teaching is that we are the chosen people... but many Jews (myself included) believe that the Jewish people are not so much the chosen people, as a chosen people. Different people are chosen to serve and worship God, or gods, or a supreme being, or whatever, in different ways.

As for confession... even growing up Catholic, I never understood the whole "confess to a priest" thing. I went to confession weekly for several years after my first confession, mainly because my dad did. My mother almost never went to confession; she was raised Anglican, and in the Anglican Church you pray directly to God for forgiveness. That stuck with me. In Judaism, you also pray directly to God, not just on Yom Kippur but year-round... and that's what I do.

I agree that you are correct - my personal definition of proselytizing is people ramming it down my throat. I will be more than happy to tell people I am Catholic, and to tell them about my faith if they are curious, but unlike the misbehaved no-home-training Lutheran boy the other night, I would never say "I think you are going to burn in Hell because you aren't Catholic." For the most part, I try to profess my faith through examples, and I never want to force my religion on someone. GPBoy and I had discussed where to get married (Catholic & Methodist) and I think we would have ended up being married in a Catholic church that allows marriage to non-Catholics (some do) or by a justice of the peace.

When I die, I do not want a preachy funeral, and anyone who wants one shouldn't attend. Just because somebody doesn't have the same beliefs as me does not mean my funeral should make them uncomfortable. I want a reading from the lectionary (common between many Christian denominations) and a nice homily. The only thing that will make people of other denominations uncomfortable will be their inability to receive communion in my Church.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm going to do a search on this once I post!), but didn't either Newsweek or Time do an article last fall on a major push in the Catholic church for Mary to be considered a "co-redemptress"?

Granted, I have a real problem with all statues (Second Commandment about graven images), but I do feel that Mary was a wonderful, pure Jewish maiden selected by God to be the mother of Jesus - but not a redeemer herself.

I'm an Orthodox Christian. In regard to the Sacrament of Confession, here is a paraphrase of what the Church says: God alone forgives sin. Jesus (God the Son) forgave sins and gave His apostles the power to remit or retain sins (cf. John 20:23). In the early Church, the sinner had to confess before the entire congregation! As the Church grew, the practice of privately confessing to the priest developed--he kind of represented the congregation.

Concerning Mary and intercessory prayers, here is a direct quote from The Faith by Clark Carlton (sorry for the length):

"While our Lord was hanging from the Cross, pouring out His life for the salvation of the world, He looked down upon His most pure Mother and the Apostle John and said to the holy Virgin,
"Woman, behold thy son." To John He said, "Behold thy mother" (John 19:26-27). From this time forth, the Virgin maiden who had given birth to God in the flesh was to be the mother of His Disciples. Just as Eve was the "Mother of all the living," so the Virgin is the "Mother of all Christians," the personification of Holy Mother Church. To those who are united to her Son through Holy Baptism, she extends her motherly embrace.

"As our Mother, the All-holy Theotokos intercedes for us before the Throne of Her Son. As our fervent Intercessor and constant Advocate before the Creator, the Virgin never tires and never fails to remember her spiritual children in her prayers. When we are at our lowest ebb and feel as though we have been forsaken by all the world, we may take courage in the fact that our Lady is ever ready to come to us and intercede for us, winning greater strength for all who call upon her Son in faith.

"Since the time of the Protestant Reformation, however, much of Western Christendom has either ignored or rejected outright the intercession of the Mother of God and the Saints for those on earth. In doing so, Protestants have forfeited one of the greatest privileges of being Christians. The Apostle James enjoins us to pray for one another, and in the same verse, explains why: the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much (James 5:16). It is ironic that those who oppose the idea of seeking the intercession of the Saints in heaven have no objections to asking ordinary, sinful Christians to pray for them. But let us consider whose prayers, according to St. James, are more effectual: those Christians still alive on earth struggling with their own sins and problems, or those who have gone on to be with God and are recognized by the Church for their holiness of life?

"The Saints are those who have passed through this life in victorious faith and now behold the face of Christ. United with Him in love, they exist in a state of perfect accord with His holy will. Thus, we may be assured that when they pray for us who are on earth, their supplications are in complete harmony with the purposes of God. No longer capable of being deceived by the wiles of the devil, they form a mighty army, joining their will to the will of God and standing firm with us as we fight the good fight of faith. If God hears the prayers of ordinary Christians embroiled in the trials of life (and He certainly does), then how much more does He heed the intercessions of those who have pleased Him most, whom He has called to be with Himself in heaven.

"I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32). In Christ, death is no longer the impenetrable barrier which separates us from those who have gone on before us. Indeed, the writer of Hebrews affirms that the Saints in heaven are aware of what is going on in our lives:

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1).

"The Saints not only cheer us on as we run the race of life, they actively participate in our race as they intercede for us, winning greater strength for all who battle evil. Our All-holy Lady, the Theotokos, stands at the head of this chorus of Saints and remains for us on earth our steadfast Protectress and constant Advocate before the Creator . . . ."

This is similar to what I was taught - I was also told that Protestants view the Eucharist (Communion) as a representation of what Jesus did, rather than how Catholics view it as directly receiving Jesus. I know there is a particular word for this, I think consecration - we believe that the host and wine become Jesus and he becomes a part of us, and Protestants do not. That's how I explained to GPBoy's grandmother why I did not take Communion at their church (United Methodist) and she seemed to understand it.

The word you're looking for is Transfiguration (that the wafer literally becomes the body of Christ). Protestant & Baptist churches don't believe in it; they believe it's a symbolic ritual of faith.

I did the Newsweek search, but am too cheap to buy the article! :) I'm checking to see if there's another way to get around it!

I think the word you were looking for is transubstantiation.

Transubstantiation is the alleged process whereby the bread and wine offered up at the communion service has its substance changed to that of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ while its accidents appear to be that of bread and wine.

From The Skeptics Dictionary

Oops!!! My bad!!

I have gone back and tried to read this total thread!

Wow is mind boggoling!

Catholic in the Dictionary means Universal.

That is why when people talk about the Roman Religion, it is Roman Catholic. At the time the Romans were the Big Guns of the known world.

I am a member of the Anglican Catholic Church but not a Praticioner. I talk to my "God", when I think there is a need.

I have looked into Luthern, Methodist, Pryesbatryian, Babtist, Juedism, etc.

Last I saw, a Supreme Being is always there! Different Names but the same!

Last I saw, the reason for Land Grabbing is Relegion!

The Last I Saw, Look at History, How many Popes were There and What Countrys were There that they were in! What was the Reason for this?

Let me see if any one knows what I am talking about instead of ambugity!:cool:

While I cannot remember JAMOM post, It fits to a tee!

If you do not beleive in a Supreme Being, I gaurantee Tee You one thing, when you are about to die, You will be asking for His Help! Been There Seen It!:(

I didn't even see your post until I came back to see the new posts. No offense meant or taken :)

The Roman Catholic Church has never taught that the pope, even as a man, is infallible. What the Church has taught is that when the Pope, by virtue of his office and in collegiality with his brother bishops, speaks or teaches regarding a matter of faith or doctrine, the Holy Spirit will protect him from speaking or teaching erroneously. The reason for this is so that the Church will not be led astray.

It is limbo -- the place for unbaptized children and the righteous who died prior to the coming of Christ -- that is no longer an official teaching. Purgatory -- the place of purification of the soul from the "stain" of venial (minor) sins and and temporal punishment for mortal (major) sins prior to entry into heaven -- is still an official teaching.

More accurate to say that some in the Catholic Church have advocated this, but the Vatican doesn't seem at all inclined to go along.

Nevertheless, the reasoning (short form) is this: the Epistles describe Jesus as the "new Adam." That is, just as death came through Adam's disobedience, life and redemption came through Christ's obedience. Likewise, just as Adam's disobedience came with Eve's cooperation (she first listened to the serpent and then offered Adam the fruit, making her partly guilty), Christ's obedience came through Mary's cooperation (making her partly responsible.) That is to say, when Gabriel visited Mary with the news that she was going to have a baby, she could have said "No way!" instead of "Be it done to me according to your word." Without her willing cooperation, none of the rest could have happened.

Hope that makes some sense.

More accurate to say that some Protestants see Communion as a "representation" rather than actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ. The older Protestant groups -- the Lutherans, Presbyterians and Anglicans -- all teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are received in the Sacrament. They may disagree with each other (and with the Catholic Church) about how this happens, but they do teach that it does happen.

Okay, I'll try to be quiet for a while. ;)

Don't! You, as usual, are bringing a lot of insight to the thread.

Awww, shucks ma'am (he said, while looking down and shiffling his feet). Thank you kindly.

I think that confirmation shgould be voluntary. Otherwise you're insane.