I'm always shocked and amazed when I hear about how competitive rush is schools like Arkansas, LSU, Ole Miss, etc.

Makes me very glad that I go to a big "Yankee" school- Kent State- where we're exstatic if we get close to 250 PNMs, are overwhelmed with a quota of like 25, 95% of PNMs get their top choice, and a WHOPPING 4 women went totally bidless last fall :D

James, you pose an interesting question. You have asked about all the women who drop out of sorority rush because they are not willing to pledge a house of lower prestige. You've asked whether that's a problem, and if so, what is the solution.
I believe I know the answer (as I believe you do too), but there are two problems: 1) Women are smarter than us men generally, and since they are aware of that they assume that our answer carries no real importance and that they alone are right about all things to do with sorority rush; and 2) since we are guys and have enough to keep us busy with our own fraternity chapters, we should consider the possibility that sorority rush is none of our business.
That said, I am happy to provide the simple answer to your question: free enterprise.
Sorority formal rush has evolved into the most rigidly structured form of socialism. Everyone except the very worst chapter is guaranteed a pledge class, and the top chapters are guaranteed a top pledge class with very little effort on their part. The aboslute worst is deferred formal rush. By January, everyone knows who's who. Potential members certainly know who's on top, and who's on the bottom, and as for the middle - well, who cares?
Yet, the most vocal and most passionate supporters of formal soroity rush with all its convoluted terms and rules seem to be the chapters that dwell in the lower half of the heirarchy. They cling to the myth - somehow, for some reason - that the Panhellenic ideal is that we all love each other and all houses are equally respected, and that it doesn't really matter which house you join because we're all Greeks together working on Homecoming floats and Dance Marathon and isn't that the most important thing after all...
The sororities at the top benefit the most. They have the reputations, and they know that even if they TRY to screw up in rush they're going to do well, because they know no matter what happens, under the rigid rule structure YOUR sorority is never allowed to pledge any more girls than MY sorority. There's literally no chance that some dynamic, enthusiastic, creative rush chairman and her chapter can come in and clean your clock. If quota is 45, they're not allowed to pedge 70 and set the campus on its ear. We had this discussion in another thread about fraternities at Oklahoma. Until recent years a have-not, the upstart Sig Eps pledged 75 men - about 25 more than the IFC "allowed" - as a way of breaking into the elite. The biggest complaints came not from the top tier fraternities, but from those in the middle or near the bottom. "SigEp took guys we would have gotten." Well, you should have gotten them yourself anyway, if you were ambitious. You see, the middle tier houses have no ambition to be anything other than what they are. They seem astonished ny the fact that given the choice, men would rather have a Mercedes than a Kia provided that the cost is the same. The mid-tier groups want the protection of limiting the number of Mercedes sold. Yes, they're guaranteed to sell some Kias, but they'll never have Mercedes dealership.
A free enterprise system for sororities would mean that any given sorority has the opportunity to improve their standing in the pecking order. At large, established systems such an opportunity does not now exist.
Free enterprise for sororities does not mean that they have to give up formal rush. But, if you want to see more women in the system, and fewer drop out of rush, then remove the caps (total) and restrictions on rush (quota). Let XYZ sorority earn their pledge class, and let lower-standing-but-ambitious ABC sorority pledge as many as they want in formal rush. To say the low-performers can always rush later like saying the law is fair because prohibits kings as well as beggers from sleeping under bridges. In the minds of rushees, when formal rush is over, it's ALL over. Often, sororities forced to open rush afterward lack confidence to be effective and are stigmitized as being not good enough.
If rush is wide open from a numbers standpoint, then the different chapters will rush differently. They won't all have the same skits and all sing the same praises of the Panhellenic Ideal. Those who are more aggressive will be rewarded; those who are lazy will pay a price. I've heard some on this board imply that "a pledge class of 75 or a chapter of 200 is unweildy." Why? What do you care? What business is it of yours? If So-and-So sorority is the one everyone is dying to join, let them pledge 100 if they want. If their chapter grows to 300 or 400, then according to those who say it's "unweildy", that sorority will collapse under its own weight and someone else will take their place. The fact is that those things just don't happen. In a free system, there's always someone who's lazy and loses their grip on the top spot, and there's always someone else who's ambitious and wants to take it from them. In a free system, the rushees are impressed by the dynamic sales abilities that sorority women are then allowed to show.
Here's a simple question: in a sorority formal rush, if quota is 35 and total is, say 100, why can't the small 30-member sorority pledge 50 or 60 girls in formal rush if they can get them to join? Panhellenic can provide no legitimate answer to that question. "It's the rules", they say and cast their eyes Heavenward as if to say I wish we could help you but we can't possibly violate the sanctity of The Rules, even if it makes sense.
What would such changes accomplish? Well, free enterprise would bring more women into the system, and the system would be forced to add new chapters to meet increased demand. Women might start out wanting to join XYZ because of their reputation, but once exposed to the unconventional rush tactics of ABC, they might find they like that experience more.
Isn't all this kind of what you had in mind, James?

Firehouse,
Your reasoning makes a lot of sense. I think you are probably right.
One point: you ask, "if quota is 35 and total is, say 100, why can't the small 30-member sorority pledge 50 or 60 girls in formal rush if they can get them to join?"
The answer is yes, according to NPC rules, they can. Now, the individual campus may restrict to quota during formal rush, but after Bid Day, yes, they may pledge up to total, and have a new member class of however many it takes to get up to total.
Someone please set me straight, but I believe NPC is testing out going away from "chapter total" to a concept of "average chapter size" or something like that.

this i agree with...almost 100%! i completely disagree that some groups lack confidence with the cob process. for some smaller chapters, they are MUCH better at the relaxed and less fake process known as COB. i completly agree with the rest of this statement. some rushees would rather not be greek at all than consider going through cob. there are definately people (greek and nongreek) on campus that will look down on the chapter or two that have to cob...which only makes PNMs want to be a part of that chapter less.

it is kind of annoying because in reality, there is probably nothing bad about the chapters who need to cob. it is hard to break out of a cycle, especially if your campus is steeped in traditions and if the repuations continue...even years after they have changed.

my biggest pet peeve during this time of recruitment threads occurs when suzie pnm writes that she didn't get asked back to any houses she wanted, so she dropped out. we all are trying to be supportive and say, "oh honey, give cob a try" when realistically, the chapters that invited her back....are the ones who will be cobing....and are the ones she felt like it would be better to drop out of recruitment than to even go to their parties. do you think she is really going to go to cob? no...i hate that we pretend she will! (sorry this just makes me aggravated)

This needed to be quoted and I added the emphasis.

I'm not sure exactly why you wanted to emphasize that James, but it is absolutely true.

Most of the people who drop out of rush do it because they were cut from the "top" houses. No one goes through rush wanting the bottom tier chapter. Everyone wants to be in the top houses, that's one of the reasons they are known as the best. So naturally, if everyone wants to be in the top house, that house will not have to worry about making quota... They will get all of their top choice PNM's. They are never going to have to COB. So, the girls who drop out because they were cut from their top choice has almost no chance of getting COBed by that chapter.

The reason that I think we try to talk these poor PNMs into COB is because once they get past the "I have to be in the top house" idea, they are VERY likely to find a sorority that they will be more at home in than they could have thought possible.

I have said before that when I went through, I did not get my top choice house... BUT I decided that being GREEK was the most important thing to me. And in the end, I ended up in a sorority that I have been SO much happier with than I think I would have been had I gotten a bid from XYZ. I LOVE my sorority, and I would not change it for anything.

So, I think we encourage COB because we want these girls to be open-minded and take a look at what they might not have paid any attention to at first glance.

If anyone thinks I am wrong with any of this, please feel free to let me know. :)

Why is Rush so cut-throat at Big Greek Schools?

Because so many of them know that this is the One Big Thing in their lives.

But Lindz928, your bottom tier chapter was 120 girls lol, twice the size of total for many chapters in the NE.

Puts things in perspectives.

Alot of those schools might not have 45,000 students and more than 800 PNM's each year.

Also, I realize that 120 seems like a large chapter. But, when all but one other chapter has at least 175, and the majority of chapters have 200+, you must see how it can look differently.

ETA: I do see what you are trying to say though.

i wouldn't agree with that...mainly because i only went through rush in order to become a member of the house that was considered the "bottom chapter." why? because the other three houses on my campus had very, very, very open hazing practices....and still do. i never really thought that getting food thrown at me in the middle of the street next to the president's house was a part of sisterhood. my chapter was considered the "bottom" because we didn't haze...and because we were younger than the other chapters. i am not saying that this reasoning works at most campus....or any other campus for that matter.

eta: cob is great for women who never really considered going through formal recruitment...but in my experience, very few of the women who dropped out of, or were dropped from formal recruitment end up going through cob.

THEY CAN!!! They can open bid until they get 65 girls, and they don't have to do it all on bid night...they can take all semester to do it if they want to, they can take a second pledge class if they want to. If there's a Panhellenic out there preventing this, they are violating Green Book regulations. The only time this wouldn't be allowed is if there is a colony on campus. (Although if there's a chapter this far under total there shouldn't be a colony on campus.)

We SUCKED at formal rush...I would say at least half of our sisters came through COB. And guess what, when they printed our pledge classes in the paper it didn't have asterisks beside the girls we got through COB instead of formal and bid-matching. We never had a problem with it - but I know there are chapters who when they have to do it, become just sort of paralyzed and end up shooting themselves in the foot.

Wow, Pinky. I can't beleive that that stuff still happens at schools. :( I'm glad that you took the high road and pledged somewhere that you knew would make you happy. It makes me sad that so many others would let themselves be put through that. I know my sisters would never have done that to me.

bump!

What we did last fall was revamp the release figures. Basically, if "top-tier" chapters (and/or chapters closest to campus total) had girls they knew they probably weren't going to extend bids to, they had to go on and release them earlier. It meant that girls weren't thinking that they just might be an ABC when that group knew she just didn't have that "ABC sparkle" that they wanted from everyone they pledged. That way PNM's weren't going to XYZ, ABC, and LMN for pref, ranking them in that order because XYZ and ABC were top-tier and LMN wasn't, but getting a bid from LMN.

The way I summed it up for my mom when she asked about it was "We're not going to be catching XYZ's leftovers." Meaning that we weren't going to be preffing girls that had wanted another sorority so badly she'd have suicided them pref night if they hadn't cut her. We were going to be preffing girls who had been cut from XYZ and ABC, but had still gone to other group's parties and decided she still wanted to find another home.

Which is not to say that we don't cross-pref with top chapters. :D It's just easier on us when we know a girl's not coming to us with her heart set on something else.

I'm finding this discussion really interesting. Even though my school wasn't vicious, it was still competitive and lots of girls dropped out rather than get invited back to houses they didn't want. I'm sure there was tons of stuff going on behind the scenes that I never picked up on. I mean, when I rushed, I was totally clueless, so this is eye-opening for me.

I have heard about a new panhellenic formal recruitment proceedure where . . . .

"Quota" sororities or "top" sororities HAVE to cut more girls on the 2nd day then say a middle or low sororities, that way the "top" sororities cant string along some poor girl who is a great pnm but "wants" only one specific sorority. That way she is forced to give other sororities another look or not go greek.

I would say (I went to a university with 4 sororities) that out of 120 girls going through recruitment, EVERY SORORITY wants the same 75 girls, and another 25 are still great girls (but, maybe aren't quite good at playing the recruitment game) and 20 are maybe questionable or unknown (i.e. no rec or seniors or questionable ethics or grades or whatever)

I have found that with all of the sororites looking and recruiting different girls, meaning . .

Alpha - wants 50 - grades-involvement-personallity-community etc
Beta - wants the same 50 cause of grades-apperance-involvement etc
Gamma - wants 50 cause of campus involvement-financial stability
Delta - wants 50 to make quota

with quota being 25 (for example) and

alpha and beta going for the same girls and having to cut the others that gives

delta and gamma a better recruiting chance and still the "top" sororities get the girls they want anyway.

I have heard that has already started at a few large SEC schools and it was a success for everyone involved but especially helped the middle sororities who don't necessarily compete with "top" sororities but are strong sororities in their own right.

I don't know if that answered any questions but I found that interesting and I am looking forward to seeing how it works at smaller greek universities.

Last time I checked (which was when I signed up), Auburn's recruitment registration form asked your parents' occupations. My mom and I joked that maybe some chapter here wouldn't have cut me so quickly had I listed my dad as an "independent cattle rancher" instead of a "mill worker." I find it kind of funny that some chapters really do seem to care--I can think of a couple right of the top of my head that seem to have tons of girls whose dads have their own businesses or are higher-ups in some company in like Birmingham or Atlanta and such.

yea I heard that AUBURN and ALABAMA started it what last year or 2003 or 2004 and Both ADPI at BAMA and AU said it worked great for them.

I am sure it is easier for the bid matchers in the end because the lists are more streamlined. I don't know I guess I will find out this year as recruitiment advisor I might understand it a little better then I did as a delta member.

bump for 2006!

I don't get it....
 

What happens when there are 5 housed chapters, 2 "best/popular", 2 "mediums" and 1 really "low"?

The 2 tops are in the 120's for members, the mediums are pretty close to that, and the low has around 70. The school is about to add a sixth sorority but why would they do that if the 5th one can't make quota (and hasn't for at least 5 years)?

Also during a year that a colony is coming aboard is it ALWAYS the case that the quotas will be reduced?

Re: I don't get it....
 

The decision to add another group is up to the school. None of us can really answer why they would do it. The large groups may want another so that quota will go down and they may only need to persuade one more to go along with them. The whole majority rules thing.

Anytime one more group is added to recruitment, without an increase in the total number of women going through recruitment, of course quota will go down. It's simple math.

120 / 4 = 30

120 / 5 = 24

Now, if the colony just comes onboard and doesn't participate in recruitment, then no quota shouldn't go down (assuming the total number of women going through remains unchanged).

Last fall I was chatting with Bama's Asst Dean of Students (aka Greek Advisor). Bama has been blessed with continued increases over the past several years in the number of PNM's going through Formal Recruitment and therefore larger quota's. The focus of our conversation was perhaps Bama needs another GLO on campus.

He said it was in the early stage of consideration with the Administration. However based on the last experience when we expanded, they would consider inviting 2 GLO's on campus the next time. With such a strong, established group of Chapters many of which have been on campus for 90+ years, it's too hard for the new one to compete.

This reminds me that I ought to check back with him and find out what the status is. I haven't heard anything since that conversation.

What happened? I take it that the expansion wasn't successful, but did the new chapter acquire a house, etc.?

I'm not sure when the last expansion occurred at Bama because it was prior to my moving here, so sometime prior to 1994. They were given/leased/purchased (don't know the specifics) the house of a closed GLO on Sorority Row.

The "new" Chapter is strong now (numbers wise) and have always had a close-knit siterhood, but it certainly struggled in those early years and still does to some extent. Their numbers aren't even close to the size of the other Chapters on campus. They gain the majority of their members through open Recruitment, not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just that practically every other Chapter routinely reaches quota during FR and they rarely, if ever, do.

A lot of the problem is the mindset of incoming PNMs onto a campus with such a strong Greek history and traditions. Many come in saying I want to be an ABC or nothing. They also don't wish to belong to the least "popular" Chapter. They'd rather be GDI or try again the following year. (Don't shoot the messenger here, I'm only reporting what I hear and see.)

Many people believe that it's unfair to have all but one Chapter at or above total while that one struggles with numbers. The competition is fierce for good girls. There are also financial considerations because obviously more members means more money coming in that can be spent on improving the physical house and doing fun activities. Which also makes them more attractive to PNMs.

That is why the current thought process of the Admin is that if we expand again it should be by 2 GLOs. Thus no one Chapter is the "low man on the totem pole".

The last expansion at Alabama was in 1989, the "newest" chapter is 17 years old.

Here is my question, who would expand at Alabama? Three chapters have closed in the past 20 years. One of those within the past 5 years, and one within the past 15 years.

There are two other chapters that closed one in the 1970s (I think) and one before that.

Also the amount of PNMs being released from Alabama's recruitment is 65 plus the 49 who didn't receive bids, out of the women not receiving bids I would say the majority did not maximize their options.

University of Alabama Greek Life

If anyone is interested you can find U of Alabama's Sorority Growth Charts and Recruitment Stats here on the UA/Greek Life website.

I am not sure which sorority you are referring to zzazbama. I am unaware of any that have closed within the last 5 years. One is no longer participating in formal recruitment and has relinquished their house to the University, but they are still active. Their situation is rather unique and not what I was referring to earlier. As to which GLO's could potentially colonize on campus, there are currently only 15 of the 26 Panhellenic organizations represented.

But as I said earlier, this came out of a casual conversation I had with the Asst Dean of Students. I have no idea when or even if it will happen. All I was told was that Admin is looking at the Recruitment numbers, the current Panhellenic membership numbers, the status of the Greek System as a whole as well as the projected growth rate for the University. Part of the Admin's plan is to significantly grow the University student population over the next 5 years and that plan is already well underway.

Another factor I forgot to mention earlier was that many of the Chapters have grown too large for their current (physical) houses. The fire marshall is starting to have fits. I can only imagine she turns a blind eye during Recruitment. Soon many houses may need to expand (which there really isn't any where to go but up and considering the age of the houses that will be costly) or alternative locations on campus need to be found for things such as Chapter meetings, Initiations, etc.

I'm starting to think it just ain't a Bama thread without someone telling a lie or repeating a rumor about this particular sorority. (Not you obviously, Zillini)

I think the idea of two expansions is actually really good if those groups would then be able to avoid the stigma of being new - otherwise there might just be two groups being stigmatized. Would there be housing for them? I know the housing situation is going to be changing (or maybe has already changed) due to the stadium reconstruction/expansion.

I've discovered it's a fairly common misconception. The prevailing notion here seems to be that if a GLO doesn't participate in formal recruitment it must be because they closed.

The GLO in question simply decided that the time, effort and expense involved with formal recruitment was not worth it when compared to the number of pledges they ended up with. Their energy and resources would be better spent on open recruiting. Sadly, I know it broke their heart when they turned over their house to the University. But they simply didn't have enough numbers to manage the costs.

Good point about the possible stigma, but at least there would be 2 groups. Misery loves company philosophy I guess. (Just a little joke folks.)

The stadium was expanded several years back. Gotta rack my brain for the specifics, apologies if I don't remember it all correctly. Since the stadium backs up to sorority row, 3 houses were purchased by the University. 1 NPC and 2 NPHC Chapters. I know at least 2 were given sites at other locations on sorority row and they rebuilt, but I can't remember about the other. I could check it out if anyone's interested. (Sorry, I don't keep up with the NPHC Chapters as well as I should.)

The stadium is undergoing further remodelling. So far we haven't heard about any more possible land acquisitions, but you can never rule anything out.

Yeah, the old Pi Phi house was right up under the stadium and they were given a new location. Apparently their current house has everythin a sorority could want!

For some reason I thought AOPi and Theta may have had to move with the newest expansion. That probably was just another rumor, though. ;)

I went on a tour of the new Pi Phi house a couple of years back. It was absolutely beautiful and so well laid out. Add to that brand new pipes, air conditioning, heating system, etc. The costs we spend in maintenance alone are massive. And our house is younger than several others. Needless to say I left green with envy.

Sorry GeekyPenguin, I forgot to address your question about housing should new GLOs be brought in. That is another issue being looked at by Admin. There really isn't anywhere for them to go on sorority row. Where do you put them? Would it hinder their potential growth to be seperated from the others? Many other campuses don't have traditional fraternity/sorority rows, but this campus is very traditional. So the answer is we have to wait and see.

That's okay. I'm pretty familiar with Bama's campus, and I was trying to figure out where new houses could go that would be close. The only thing I could think of is to put then in the lot behind ChiO (that's parking right now) but I don't think that would be very popular with all the current sorority members. ;)

I wasn't aware that the sorority I thought was closed was still active on campus. I knew that they had relinquished their house and were no longer participating in formal recruitment. I stand corrected. They are a great group of woman and I am happy that they are still active.

Also I beleive the last time an expansion was done at Bama, two organizations came onto campus, only which one is left.

I also wonder where a new house would go?
I agree that many of the groups have out grown their houses.

I think we'll just have to wait and see.

A lot of people are probably saying the same thing:

At schools with established, competitive Greek systems, it can be very difficult for newer and smaller chapters to grow. At UGA, there were 18 groups when I pledged (although one of them did not participate in 2005 recruitment, so there are only 17 involved in recruitment now)... and it seemed that certain girls were always fighting over certain groups. I was told from the start that "XYZ, ABC, and GHI only pledge girls who grew up in the south, so you shouldn't bother with those houses" (and sure enough, 2 of the 3 cut my Yankee butt after round 1). Likewise, I was told that "DEF and JKL are the houses for girls who are really involved on campus" and decided to focus on those.

At a school with so many GLOs, I saw sororities compartmentalized a lot, and thus small groups of sororities competed with each other: the Southern houses competed, the Prom Queen houses competed, etc. It seemed to be not so much cutthroat on the whole, but cutthroat between particular groups of houses.

So if expansion were to happen, and if it were NPC expansion, then the eleven organiztions that might potentially or theoretically be interested would be

Alpha Epsilon Phi
Alpha Phi
Alpha Sigma Alpha
Alpha Sigma Tau
Alpha Xi Delta
Delta Gamma
Delta Phi Epsilon
Phi Sigma Sigma
Sigma Kappa
Sigma Sigma Sigma
Theta Phi Alpha

Not sure why exlurker is stating the obvious :), we could list the "who is not represented on the campus" stats for every campus in the US & Canada but the point is that the campus is NOT open and many of these groups would not throw their hats in the ring even if it was.

This is like a GC discussion I had with someone else about extension at another school where one group is small and nearly a dozen are at or over total. Do they really need another group or is the campus kidding itself? There does not HAVE to always be a weak group. I believe it was U of Missouri who used release figures this past Fall and EVERY group took quota. Nobody is weak and everyone benefited. Now will expansion occur there in the future? Possibly. Does it have to? Only if the groups feel they need to lower overall chapter size and new member classes get to be cumbersome (i.e. they can no longer fit chapter meetigns in their present locations etc).

Soap box retracted,
Denise