*stands up and cheers*

Oh and on fragging (I know you didn't say this damasa): nice way to reduce the lives of innocent people down to video game terminology.

Well, it has to be called something, doesn't it? Everything has a name.

It would be unwieldy to have to tell people you needed to use your programmable electronic device that can store, retrieve, and process data everytime you signed onto your computer, right? :)

uh, just so you know, that term has been around since at least the Vietnam war.

as per dictionary.com:

I'm gonna have to say, way to go gamer geeks for using MILITARY terminology.

Kitso
KS 361

Chemical weapons factory found in Al Najaf... Thanks Chemical Weapons Inspectors.. Took you 12 years. We found it in 3 days.:rolleyes:

The term "fragging" has been around at least since the Vietnam Conflict. It has been used since then by the military and media.

*edit*

Sorry Aggie -- didn't see the first part of your post above. You're correct.

As for the Chemical Plant, at least for now, only FOX is calling it a "Chemical Weapons Factory." Others are being a little more conservative until the military experts confirm what was being manufactured there. It is pretty suspect that it was apparantely pretty well hidden from both air and ground levels.

Nice way to reduce the lives of innocent people down to cartoon terminology. :rolleyes:

Hey Kettle, this is Pot, did you know you're Black??

Kitso
KS 361

Someone throws a grenade into a tent where officers are.

When grenades and people mix - people are blown to smithereens.

Thanks for the clarification on the term fragging - and yes, it has to be called something, but why not say what it really is? Words like 'fragging' put too much of an empty rhetorical spin on things. I think if we said what really happened during war - showed it in all it's technicolor gore and 'glory' - people might be a lot less likely to support it.

But then, I'm the same person who won't see violent movies because I think it makes it too easy to dehumanize people.

If the factory found tonight turns out to be a factory for chemical agents I think we'll have the validation and justification for war that is sorely needed. We know it's there. If we've found it then I think any valid objections are going to disappear (unless you just believe that bombs are always wrong).

Unfortunately I see a side of this that might not be so good. If Iraq's leadership knows they've been found out they lose any reason they had NOT to use WMD before. They will now be MUCH more likely to unleash them.

This may need a little more clarification. The word is not just something out of a vivid imagination.

The term "fragging" comes from fragmentation -- which is the type of grenade used. I think that word speaks for itself.

There are also smoke grenades, concussion grenades and many other types.

I have a question for the people who have stated that they are against the protests because they are blocking traffic, making noise, ect. Are you against Pro-War marchers as well who block traffic and chant "God Bless America" in the streets? Traffic is still being blocked and noise is still being made. Just a question.

It's obnoxious either way.

It just makes no sense for people to be protesting anywhere except Washington. The state governments have nothing to do with the war, and it's just as stupid and useless as a pro-war march. Honestly, I've never witnessed a pro-war march, so I wouldn't know if they block traffic. I know making a symbolic statement is important and principles too, but the only people you're affecting is regular citizens and their jobs, it's not furthering any cause to stop the war.

It's people with nothing better to do on an afternoon...

76 to 70% of Americans polled still support Bush's policy.

I have actually witnessed some pro-war demonstrations. There has been a family camped out on an overpass for two days waving flags and playing music over I-35.

Ok I just think it's sad that some people feel it's necessary to simplify someone's war stance as Pro or Anti-American. If you live in America, work in America, and appreciate the lifestyle which living here affords you, then I would have to say that whether you are for the war or against it is a moot point. If you fit the above criteria then you are PRO-AMERICAN!! :p

I seriously doubt anti-war protesters want to see America destroyed. They want what they think is best for their country just as much pro-war citizens do. Please keep that in mind the next time you go to flame someone or call them names.

Also in my experience people only verbally attack others when they have nothing intelligent to say.

Just food for thought..................;)

Yeah, actually (some of you may not believe this), but I think Pro-War (or Pro-Troops) protestors who block streets, start fights, shut down bridges...etc., are also pretty idiotic. All they are doing is disrupting normal life, which we all should continue to live.

What concerns me the most in this whole war, is what if we DON'T find chemical/biological weapons or other weapons of mass destruction? Geez, the USA would look like real idiots. Or what if Saddam purposely allows the US to just march 50,000 troops into Baghdad, and then nuke his own city?

I still believe that everything will be uncovered and we will prevail, proving that Saddam really is a bad guy. I am confident that George W. wouldn't lead the American citizens into this battle without concrete evidence.

I am Pro- American

And we needed to start a war to clarify this point?????:confused:

I don't know if your response was positive towards me or negative, but here goes. Starting the war does not clarify this point, it will end his reign as a dictator and let the Iraqi people live like human beings and not like animals.

I never had a real little brother, but I did have a real big brother, and I can remember time and time again when he used to beat things out of me. You know, "did you tell mom?" as he nails me in the arm until I said "Yes, now leave me alone".

Saddam has lied to the international community for the past 12 years, ON TOP OF killing thousands of his own people with chemical weapons, executing his own military officers and women and children, as well as Kurdish people. It is time someone beat the truth out of this bastard, and the USA is the only country willing to do it. If we didn't step up to the plate, who knows what this ruthless asshole could have done.

I am Pro- American

DagnyGirl, the 9/11 terrorists lived in this country, were educated in this country, and enjoyed all of her goodness and benefits (some of it contrary to their religious beliefs) and were still anti-American.

ZZ-kai-, I heard today that we found a chemicals weapon plant which was very well hidden. It was unnoticeable from the air since it was camouflaged by paint and sand that was glued on.

MSKKG~ I was referring to american citizens, not people who hang out in this country for a while. I thought I made myself clear on that point. Obviously the terrorists didn't have America's best interests at heart but they weren't Americans in the first place.

Just to mix things up a bit, I want to point out that we gave Saddam a good amount of money and weapons to invade Iran years ago. He was just as bad then as he is now yet the US saw fit to support him. Now before people start posting that I am wrong, do your homework. It's not something talked about in the media often, but Tom Brokaw mentioned it a few days ago.

Happy posting! :cool:

What does that really have to do with anything though?

I don't see that so much as a valid argument for NOT going after Saddam. Perhaps as a reason FOR it as in we should clean up our own mess.

I'm sure if you gave the powers that were a crystal ball so they could have seen the planes crashing into the twin towers they wouldn't have done what they did. At the time though we had a much greater threat -- remember the USSR? At that time it was more about survival of our way of life. All individuals, Saddam, Osama, etc. were united against the USSR because it was in the best interest of all parties involved.

Sure the past between the US and Saddam is discussed often. Watch CNN? It comes up quite a bit. I just don't see how it's very relevant anymore.

Of course it's relevant. Isn't that why we take study history -- to learn from past mistakes?

And in that vein, I think everybody should read this article about the war

http://www.mndaily.com/article.php?id=5288

because it made me laugh. It's not exactly hard-hitting journalism, but I think it's entertaining nevertheless, just because it resembles so many many other debates I've had about the war.

Theoretically what some part of it boils down to for the EU is the question, "Is a preemptive war a just war?"

Here's two anecdotes.

Let me preface it by saying my credentials - I've graduated with a double major (B.S.) in Government and International Politics, concentration in international relations; and economics.

These anecdotes are about Saddam Hussein.

First, when he was Vice President of the Ba'th Party to Gen. Bakr in 1966, he did torture prisoners, in fact witness claim Saddam himself lifted one bound prisoner and dropped him in a tub of acid and watched his body dissolve. The veracity of this could be disputed since it was reported by Iraqi defectors but it of course could have happened.

Second, when Saddam was a young man he used to be a street vendor, and one frequent customer was an Iraqi Jew. He later encountered the man, who was a prisoner. Instead of torturing the man, when Saddam found out about his status, he barged into the room the man was about to be executed in, and ordered his release. The Iraqi Jew could not figure out why until two decades later when he realized Saddam was the young vendor he had bought cigarettes from and had tipped him well.

There are two sides to everything--that is my point, and to think your opinion is the one that should be universally shared is a very limited view and intellectually it just isn't good. If you want to present your opinion as an argument, then make a strong argument with evidence.

I'll continue to pray for the soldiers abroad in the conflict.

Two quotes:

"The true mark of an intelligent man is to hold two conflicting notions in his mind and debate them internally." - Thomas Edison

"I may not like what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

my sister sent this to me, so now i'll share it with you all:

"Trying to Help" by dennis miller

Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion on this issue:

(1) Between President Bush and Saddam Hussein... Hussein is the bad guy.

(2) If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing, keep this in mind: the UN has Libya heading the committee on Human Rights and Iraq heading the Global Disarmament Committee. Do your own math.

(3) If you use a Google or Yahoo search and type in "French Military Victories," don't be surprised if your CPU panics at its inablility to respond to your inquiry.

(4) If your only anti-war slogan is "No War for Oil," hire a pit-bull attorney and sue your school district for having allowed you to slip through the cracks and robbing you of the minimum education that any non-troglodyte deserves.

(5) You can take this one to the bank: Saddam and bin Laden will NOT seek UN approval before they try to kill us.

(6) Despite the common belief among some, Martin Sheen is NOT the president. He only plays one on TV.

(7) If you are anti-war and even an outright "America Basher," to bin Laden you are still an "infidel" whom he wants dead.

(8) Be careful: if you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy," but not in the danger that Hussein poses, the only job you may be able to get is as an Ivy League college professor.

(9) Even multi-culturalists who try to browbeat us into believing that all cultures are equal deserving of respect have trouble explaining the past 500 years of Islam.

(10) Whether you are for or against military action, our young men and women overseas are fighting to defend our right to speak out on these very issues. They deserve our unreserved support.

I hope this helps. ...... (Dennis Miller).

with respect to all,
monica

I like the Dennis Miller list....how about that? Not bad. Mr. Miller.

He can suck my left a$$ cheek.

My how eloquently put, though I don't know that I would want a complete stranger sucking on my butt.
Normally I don't like him either, but for once I think he actually has something remotely intelligent to say.

It would have been way better if he were more informed. Like if he didn't intersperse references to bin Laden as if he is synonymus with Iraq.

The only one that makes any sense at all is number 10.

Just curious, T, which of Miller's 10 points do you disagree with?

That's a great post regarding what Dennis Miller said. Thanks for posting...

See because you agree, that means it is intelligent.

Would the list be ignorant if you didn't agree?

Tell me where I said that I agreed with it? I don't believe that I posted that. I was just saying that I liked it. I don't see you jumping all over DZHBrown because she made a similar comment.

I now see what I normally don't get involved in the more controversial postings on GC. Simply put it doesn't matter what my personal opinion is to anyone on here does it? Because regardless of what I say, there are those who will misconstrue whatever comments I make.

Reading this entire thread is making me pretty sick to my stomach. I think it is ridiculous that ANYONE and I mean anyone whether for this war or against is has had the audacity to call anyone a dumbass, ignorant, stupid, curse at or belittle anyone because they don't happen to agree with your opinion. If you haven't done it then I'm obviously not speaking to you. If you have you should really take a step back and think. Bickering back and forth over an internet message board is doing nothing for this country or our solidiers risking their lives to protect this country. For the people who are for the war who say that now is not the time to speak dissenting views, why don't you start by showing a little respect for the people you "interact" with on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis on this message board. It is like a small community. Being hurtful and disrespectful does not help you get your point across it just makes you look like an ass. Telling people to leave the country if they don't agree with your opinion makes you look like an ass. The point is whether we agree with this situation or not we are in it as of now. And this is for everyone, before worrying about someone blocking traffic protesting for eithier side why don't you consider how you are treating you friends, neighbors, and others you come into "contact" with whether they agree with you or not.

While I don't feel like I've been overtly rude to anyone, I just wanted to ask a question....
You seemed (and I could be wrong) to direct this post at the people who support military action. Do you feel that the anti-war people who have been rude and belittling should think about their actions, as well?

Re: Re: Re: In response...
 

I'm guessing that everyone's that's upset about "people calling each other ignorant for disagreeing" is looking at this post.

If you look carefully and re-read it, nowhere will you see the words, "you are ignorant, because i disagree with you". In fact, the adjective "ignorant" is directly followed by the noun it modifys(? help me out here english majors) "statement".

So, when we read the WHOLE post and don't just see one word and jump to conclusions, we see that what i was calling ignorant was the statement, "BUSH and his lies" not librasoul for disagreeing with me.

As far as the Miller link, i believe he was referring to Hussein and bin Laden and Saddam as separate entities that both wish for the destruction of Americans. More of hey, Apple and Orange are fruits(2 separate things) as opposed to Red Delicious and Granny Smith(2 types of the same thing). Although, you could argue that they both are evil leaders, but i don't necessarily think that Miller is implying that they are in cahoots.

Kitso
KS 361

Yes you were wrong in your assumption. I purposely used the word ANYONE in large capital letters. Maybe I should have put it in bold. ANYONE means ANYONE. I also stated that if you were not guilty then the post didn't pertain to you. I have seen rudeness on both sides but in this PARTICULAR thread I haven't seen anyone who was anti-war use insults or name calling. I could have been wrong, if so I am SURE someone will point it out. My main point is that belittling people doesn't help anything at all and I think you are assumming I am anti-war. I am not anti-war, I just support the right for everyone to use their rights to free speech in this democratic country, whether I like what they are saying or not.

Wow. Greek togetherness...and stuff. I know we have hundreds of different takes on the war. What sucks is that no one person is right. Or completely wrong. But how come in a time of need we as Americans can't come together? It worked really well after Sept. 11. I know that not everyone shares the same opinions regarding the justness of the war and the alleged rationales BUT we are all Americans. We all know someone who has been shipped off. And we're all worried about a certain someone (friend, sibling, spouse). If nothing else, we should all unify and be thankful that we have people who will (and have) give their lives in OUR defense. I have no problem w/ everyday people protesting (within reason, without causing physical harm to others!) for either side, but I have a huge vendetta against these celebrities who try to jump on some pathetic bandwagon and try to be human shields or whatever. If they really wanted to help, why don't they donate their earnings to the poor hungry children of Iraq, who are probably going to lose their parents. Or hell, donate money to any of the millions of starving impoverished people in the world. Or better yet, be a human shield for the people in the ghettos of Chicago, LA, NY, etc. There are people in need all over the place. But of course they're too shallow and sheltered to find out for themselves.

And a certain person by the name of Dennis Miller can shove it for the comment he made about Islam. Defaming anyone's religion is in poor taste, especially when he probably knows zilch about it. Maybe he should sue his home school district for denying him an education. :rolleyes:

Just for the record, I really believe in that Voltaire quote I included earlier.

And also for the record, I'd never call someone who call someone an ignorant dumbass. I may call them ignorant, though (after all, we're all ignorant about some things, aren't we?).

I posted something with a little thought behind it instead of a knee jerk response and I'm looking forward to similar responses and thought. :D

VirtuousErudite and Bro2B -- amen to both of you.

And as for the Dennis Miller list, it was ridiculous. Once again, it's a perfect example of somebody taking an extremely complex issue and making it way too oversimplified, and in the process it loses most of its meaning.

(1) Saddam = bad guy? Way too oversimplified. And even if Saddam is worse than George W. Bush, that doesn't mean that Bush can't be a bad guy too. (Note: I am not saying that he IS, because I don't really feel it's my place to judge. I'm just saying that just because one side is bad doesn't mean the other side is necessarily "good.")

(2) So we're not supposed to have faith in the UN? So for some reason we don't have an obligation to listen to them, because we are in some way more special than all the other countries? Am I just mistaken, or was it the UN that ordered Iraq to disarm originally? So Iraq has to follow UN orders but we don't?

(3) Heh. Granted this was a code put in as a practical joke, so it has no bearing whatsoever on military events, but it's still funny.

(4) I sort of agree -- but then there are plenty of ignorant statements on the pro-war side too. Such as most of Dennis Miller's list . . .

(5) And we're not seeking UN approval before we kill them, either. So that puts us on the same level as Saddam and Iraq. Way to take the high road.

(6) What does this even refer to?

(7) And bin Laden has what to do with Saddam, again?

(8) I haven't heard anybody talk about a vast right-wing conspiracy. Am I just out of the loop?

(9) Cheap shot, and not especially relevant to the issue at hand.

(10) Agreed.

Seriously, folks, if you thought the Dennis Miller was "intelligent," you're deluding yourself into thinking that anybody who agrees with you is brilliant. I can see liking it, finding it funny, or even agreeing with it, but is it intelligent? Give me a break.

Particularly #9. To lump islamics like that was unneccessary...and I'm not even Islamic.