LOL that is SO funny that you mentioned goat's blood because our chapter has a running joke about goat's blood. I've always been really gullible and when I was pledging SAI, the night of pinning, I asked one of the members what we were about to go through and she said, "oh nothing big." And then she yelled to the VP Membership, "hey did you remember the goat's blood?" and I totally freaked out. (And no, to non-SAIs, SAI does not use goat's blood, or ANYTHING weird like that, in our ritual). LOL We still laugh about it! :)

Buy back?? If we terminate for whatever reason, we have to surrender everything...no compensation...obviously it's up to us to surrender everything though and be honest about it because, save our member badges, we legally own everything....

Re: Breaking the Silence!
 

OFGS, Fred. Shuddup already--now how many times have you been banned from GreekChat? YOU need to hide under a rug.

Re: Re: Breaking the Silence!
 

YAY!!! Some drama for a change!!!

WOW am I relieved to hear you say that...I was hearing differently from some other sisters...although I think sometimes if people self-terminate for fairly friendly reasons (i.e. money problems) the sisters will buy things back from them to help them out.

the way I look at it, it's like when you don't make your car payments. You screwed up - the repo man doesn't knock gently on your door and say "could you pleeeeeease give me your car, if it's not too much trouble?" No, that puppy gets towed.

oh and Fred, go hang out at the Jack Chick website, it's much more your cup of tea (if you haven't renounced tea that is).

As a member of both a college fraternity and a Master Mason, I am obligated by ties that no earthly act can absolve. By the implict trust of taking such obligations I trust my fellow brother and expect the same in return. On the other hand, the breaking of such an implicit trust I consider it to be inexcusable. The 'ancient penalties' of Freemasonry are symbolic in nature only. (The only punishments handed out in a Masonic lodge are reprimand, suspension (for a definite or indefinite length of time) or expulsion, and that's only after a trial.)

Yes, it is true that with a little research and finding several well-written exposes of Masonic ritual that the ceremonies and modes of recognition of Freemasonry can be obtained. But that still won't get you past the Tyler's door.

Obviously, I am not at liberty to discuss specific aspects of the ritual of the Masonic Grand Lodge of Texas -- whose esoteric work has never been officially committed to writing (though there are unauthorized written ciphers of the work floating around) -- but the ritual language of Texas is so unique in the world of Freemasonry that it almost serves as an additional method of recognition between brethren. And I'm also proud to say that I am certified to teach the Texas esoteric work as well.

Well, Mr. Pharisee, "by their fruits ye shall know them" and we've known who you were for weeks--and not by your website either. I don't think that any of the oldtimers even bothered to read your profile--why should they even need to?

And why are you back? Having been banned, you surely realize that your abrasive posting style and emails to innocent GCers offended many. To be honest, you probably drove more people away from Christianity than you ever attracted.

Is this guy creeping the hell out of anybody else?

hmm sounds like that random preacher that used to visit my old college campus...had nothing nice to say about anyone.

I compare it more to a spouse who is married to a Medical Doctor, and the snoopy spouse is asking the Medical Doctor:
Honey, who did you treat today?
What did you treat them for?
and so on....

Basically, they (the snoopy non-doctor spouse) are asking questions that have nothing to do with them, and that they have no business asking. And the Hippocratic Oath that doctors take, and that they are to keep Doctor/Patient Confidentiality has nothing to do with the marital vows that they took with their spouse.

Excellent analogy, CP.
When I bring work home or otherwise telecommute, the institutional standards dictate my other half isn't even allowed **in the room** while I'm working on the medical documentation.

I'm finding out more and more it really is OK for spouses to not tell each other everything, esp in cases like this. Makes it easier to accept the prviacy of GLOs.

Adrienne
:-)
(Why am I still awake????)

yes!

Probably the same, if not higher. While revealing the secrets of your GLO to a non-member can result in reprimand, suspension or expulsion, along with the resulting mistrust within the brotherhood/sisterhood, the unlawful revelation of military or government classified information can result in heavy fines, prison time and in times of war or an exceptionally grave breach of national security information, even death. (Robert Hanssen, the former FBI agent who sold out to the Russians just barely squeaked getting a death sentence - he made a deal with prosecutors and agreed to submit to an extensive debriefing to determine the extent of the damage, along with letting his wife keep his FBI pension.)

One case in point: about three years ago I was part of a survey team to redo floor plans for the Alternate Joint Communications Center, located inside Raven Rock Mountain on the Maryland/Pennsylvania state line. The AJCC (or Site 'R') as it is also known, is the relocation site for the Pentagon in the event of a nuclear war. (Reportedly, but for obvious reasons, never confirmed, the Vice President was supposedly sent there during the September 11 atacks.)

We got to survey practically every room in the place except for one, and that's because we didn't have TOP SECRET-RIDICULOUS clearance. (We only had a SECRET clearance.) In many locations we had to make arrangements ahead of time to allow the people working inside time to 'sanitize' the area and cover up any classified information laying about. Certain other areas were designated 'no lone zones' (anywhere there is anything dealing with nuclear command and control) and we had to be within sight of our escort at all times.

I am still bound by an agreement I signed when I was granted the clearance (and again when I left my job) that requires me to not disclose specific details about the facility, security measures and so forth.

(BTW, what I've mentioned about Site 'R' above is NOT classified. I am free to say this: the Alternate National Military Command Center (within Site 'R' - the primary's in the Pentagon) doesn't look anywhere like Hollywood's depiction of the war room in the movie WarGames. Just picture government issue blah. :) )

Just out of curiosity...was it a guy named Brother John that had this South American wife that tells everyone they're going to hell for wearing pants, listening to rock and roll, being in GLOs, etc? If so he comes to my school too. They're fun to argue with.

lol yep.. that's him. i thought that guy only went to the school i transferred from.. then i heard he also went to another nearby college campus.. and when i transferred I saw him here too.. and I also learned on GC he makes his way around the country :P

LOL that's so weird, I thought maybe he only went to mine, until you posted that. They're hilarious! I'm a Christian, but that guy was over the top. One of the days he was on campus this semester, I talked/argued with him more than anyone there. It got to the point where I was yelling at him because he wasn't listening to me, and his little wifey told me I was "evil, an abonination to God, a sinner" and asked me to leave. It was so funny. For days after that random people saw me around campus and were like, "hey, you were the girl that argued with the preachers all day!" LOL :D

HO, Ho, Ho, Tis The Season to be Jolly!

But The Season Brings out Fruit Cakes Gallor!

Dont like Fruit Cakes as the Nuts get in between My Teeth and Gums!

Man, does Wally, my Dentist ove this time of year!

Also have a customer at the Shop who is now my resident Physco Dr!. She is retired, but loves me, so will give advice frreeeeee, especially after I talk about some on GC!:D She thinks it is Great!:cool:

Now, Houston, I have a problem, DINNER! What to fix!

Shrimp sounds so good, but is a one time meal!

Have to cook for the rest of the week! Ah, Gooy Buns, will mix up a batch, maybe Chopped Sirloin With Cheese in the middle for later in the Week!:D

Maybe I am getting burned out by the Crainal Rectoids on site or just getting fried by OTW talking about nice weather in Aloha land,

Or ZEKE, who is one of the Best and always happy with the N Lady, or no cream in my coffeee that I so not drink! Beer is King!

Am I becoming a degenerate in a maudalin time once again?

Do I try to Give EC Shit for looking for him for 30 + years?

Is this disjointed?

My Christmas Present to me was a electric nail gun! Dont know what I will do with it, but got one!

Look out false GCers, I am armed!:D

i don't get it, how are you not going to be initiated, but you have letters at the bottom of your page?

I know for a fact Gamma Phi Beta has a rule that says you cannot forbid a new member/pledge/associate from wearing or using letters. To the best of my knowledge, most NPC sororities also have this rule. I personally never wore letters before initiation, but I did have them in my GC signature. I'm sure it's different for the NPHC.

Starang21, In Chi Omega, we can wear letters before we are initiated, it is just the crest we are not allowed to wear until after initiation :) Just thought that I would clear it up!

Pi Phi's new members can only wear the words "Pi Beta Phi"; they can't use the Greek letters or the crest until after initiation. There was a thread on this awhile back but I have no clue how to find that one!

ahh, thanks for clearing that up.

I remember the thread carnation mentioned, but your guess is as good as mine as to what the thread was called.

Alpha Gamma Delta new members are allowed and often encouraged to wear their letters prior to Initiation. The only thing they are not allowed to wear is the Badge.

As Geeky Penguin said earlier, this applies to many [but not all] NPC organizations [as carnation pointed out with her GLO].

In my SAI chapter(I say MY chapter because I'm not sure what other chapters do, or if this is a national rule), you are not allowed to wear ANYTHING that says SAI(spelled out OR just the letters, or the crest, not anything), don't think we're allowed to carry keychains or anything, until initiation.

Personally, I agree with this policy 100%. Because
I know most GLOs if they have such a policy, can wear letters spelled out, or can wear anything but not the crest, etc. I understand not wearing the crest, because you don't know what the stuff stands for. Well...then why should you be allowed to wear letters? You don't know what they stand for either. I know the Tau Beta Sigma chapter here has the same policy. I mean..I'm sorry...if you don't know what the stuff stands for, you shouldn't be allowed to wear it yet. I know that wearing them shows pride, etc, but also, when you have to wait until initiation to wear letters, it means more (IMO) to be able to wear them.

Thoughts, anyone????

I was told it was hazing if my NME was to say "Kathleen, no wearing letters until November 1st." We were "strongly encouraged" to wait, but we couldn't be ordered to. Our chapter is very sensitive to hazing issues because we are the only NPC and there are big hazing problems on campus. I can't think of a single girl in my pledge class who did wear them, but we could have, if we chose to.

Oops, let me clarify. The MITs are not ORDERED to do so; we let them know that we think it best for them to wait to wear/carry letters. However an MIT last year carried an SAI keychain and we didn't say anything about it(hazing issues, as you stated).

It is totally amazing!

How in the hell do yo get New Members to wear Letters, Colors, or New Associace Pins?

How do You get Actives, to wear Letters, colors, and Badges!

What do you do to get Members to promote Your Organization.

What by wearing t-shirts promoting everything else that don't mean s^&t!

What is wrong with this picture? :confused:

alpha xi delta has verrrrrry strict policies, most more strict than NPC policies. Which is a very good thing. The definition I was given of hazing was anything that separates a new member from a sister...so we were allowed to wear and have letters before initiation, and go to chapter, just like the rest of the sisters. The only thing was that we didn't know ritual. That was it. There are some things that are kind of tradition in our chapter, like not wearing a jersey or lavalier until you're initated. (because you get those things from your big at initation, usually) I also noticed that most new members didn't put letters on their car until they were intiated either. But every chapter and organization is different.

I was also told that as a "pledge" I was not allowed to wear letters until initiated. I was completely fine with that and while I was a pledge I didn't feel it was right to wear something that I did not know the meaning of, but that was just my personal feelings. We are apparently mistaken. There is no mention of this rule in our C&S and there is actually a thread about this in the Pi Phi forum on the Bid-Day t-shirt thread. It was clarified by our Director of Academics, Karen Gunther in this thread. I'll post the link.

Bid Day t-shirt thread

edited to add: It is considered hazing when new members are not allowed to wear/have, carry, etc the same things as active members, I know by our headquarters and I assume NPC. My chapter in no way was intentionally hazing, but we were all under the impression that it was a rule.

Likewise for AEPhi. New members can wear things that say "Alpha Epsilon Phi" or "AEPhi", just not "AEF". The reasoning is that new members don't know the full meaning of the letters yet, so they shouldn't be wearing them.

It made it that much more special to me when, the day after initiation, I wore letters for the first time.

Kappa Alpha Theta has the same rule, at least at my school.

In the strictest sense, I can see where this might be considered "hazing". New members are being forbidden to do something that the sisters have a right to do. But new members are also forbidden to wear the badge - is that hazing? Besides, new members are just being told not to wear letters... that's a far cry from "here, finish this keg" or "you're not allowed to shower for the next week".

(Hmmm... this thread sure strayed far from the original topic. But that's ok... :) )

It's not a national rule, although many chapters have such policies in place. My college chapter allowed pledges to have "SAI" or "Sigma Alpha Iota" but not "SAI".

Thanks for letting me know, Lady Pi Phi! However, I bet that if the rule isn't there now, it was in the past. We were in no way hazed and not being able to use the letters, along with wearing tiny wine and blue pledge ribbons, wasn't considered hazing when I was active.

I don't think either should be considered hazing now. Like aephialum said, you don't let new members wear the pin--is that hazing? I remember that minutes after the post initiation party, we all tore upstairs and put on the Greek-letter shirts we'd been saving and ran outside and put the decals on our cars! It was special and wonderful and worth the wait!

I don't understand how anyone can wear letters not knowing what they mean--but maybe that's just me. I guess a lot of it is walking around in letters, looking cute. I don't think I wore any letters until after Initiaion. but that's probably because I didn't get any until the post-Initiation party.

These rules, well-intentioned and all to stop allegations of hazing, are only going to increase the sense of entitlement some new members have going into the new member education process anyway. What's so special about initiation, or staying in a group through thick and thin, if you wore the letters and everything right after Bid Day?

Oh yeah--what do you tell someone who's upset because their significant other is in a group and can't tell them the secrets. "Get a life/grip" isn't working anymore. ;) This isn't about Mr. Munchkin03, but a friend whose boyfriend is in some co-ed literary society and she wants to know what they do (from what we've heard, they do things that are a little sketchy--like make-out orgies and group showers). How do I tell her that that stuff has NOTHING to do with our rituals? :confused:

I agree completely. I remember when I was pledging, I couldn't WAIT until initiation so I could go buy keychains and stuff. And I did, the day after initiation...I actually bought 3 different keychains(LOL I'm such a Greek Geek), as well as a car decal and lisence plate. It meant more to me when I finally got to own the stuff, y'know? I know that during pledging I wanted to have a lettered t-shirt SO bad, but I'm glad that I had to wait. :)

I'm just taking a wild stab here, but I'm going to guess that just about everyone on here will say that their organization's policy (at the time they were pledging) as to what they can and cannot wear is the right one. It's all in what you're used to. Personally, I don't care whether XYZ lets its non-initiated members wear everything, nothing, just letters, or whatever - as long as members understand and abide by their organization's policy.

Just responding to this nut makes me a nut, I guess
 

I guess you just conveniently disregard those numerous portions of the Gospels where Jesus commands his disciples to keep secret the things they have seen or to keep his teachings secret until after his resurrection. Not to mention his deliberate use of parables that some would understand and others would not -- "Let him who has ears to hear...."

Ah, selective memory and selective reading can be so useful. One should never allow the complete picture to get in the way of one's prejudices.

CardinalSM~ do any of your chapters new members ever wear letters prior to initiation. In our chapter we're told that while we are allowed, letter are something that are earned as you learn about Chi Omega. So all of our pledge classes never wear letters out of respect for older, initiated sisters? I've never really heard of memebers wearing them before initiation...but maybe just because that's what our chapter does.

(italics added)

Our policy (Alpha Delta Pi) is like yours - if it even has an appearance of hazing, it's out! We, too, get our first lavalier after initiation, but again, it's tradition.

I have to admit that this thread is the very first time I've ever heard of a new member needing to "earn" her letters, in any GLO. I am in complete amazement that y'all don't consider that hazing, yet consider wearing a ribbon with your colors hazing.

honeychile

I think the reasoning behind it is if the pledge doesn't know any of the meaning behind the letters, she shouldn't wear them. Remember the t-shirts with Chinese characters on them? Apparently they meant nothing and people in China were laughing their butts off at the idiots wearing t-shirts that said "blue madly cat" or something of the like.

ASA can wear letter shirts as soon as we are bid, but our letters (in Greek and English) also correspond to our open motto - Aspire, Seek, Attain. I would not want to wear letters if I had no idea what they meant. We did have to wait to wear/own crests until after initiation and it really made them special.

In my opinion, some of the things that are considered hazing, like scavenger hunts are a little ridiculous, but it's considered hazing because our inter/nationals are trying to protect themselves and the chapters.

I don't feel I was hazed in anyway. My pledge class received our first letters from our big sisters right after initiation. I think it was special and well worth the wait. I personally didn't feel right about my letters before I was initiated.

But I can see why this would be considered hazing.