Exactly...so in a sense..your post is a contradtiction. Pledging is what forms a bond between the brothers and sisters of the pledge class. In some cases, hazing might help, in others, it might hurt. No one can really tell of the true affects of hazing, some ppl would take being hazed differently.

About the comment of not knowing how close you are to your pledge sisters, I'd have to disagree. I know, I'm probably that close with some of the guys that I pledged with. They are my "boys." But, I also am just as close with many of the other members, so it goes hand in hand.

d

Christi
If hazing is the reason you're so close with your sisters, then your ritual must be really lacking. You do, however, illustrate my point very clearly. Hazing creates a dissonance that makes you think you really deserve it and its great because you got hazed. haha. Tricks on you! You now feel that everyone should be hazed to bond. I'm sorry for what is evidently you're entire campus, that your chapter participation in ritual does not do that for you. It may prove that you might wish to reevaluate your ethics. Would you haze your best friend in high school to get closer to her? That'd be a bit strange, wouldn't it.

And not to insult your intelligence (entirely), but let me see if I'm getting this point of yours correct. Because some orgs don't haze, anyone with money can get in, yet if your hazed, only the best of the best get in? Is this so? So, the people who let themselves be hazed, and take your shit for the first full semester in school which is when more than ever they need to be learning and growing are the ones who are going to go out and be productive members of society and for your GLO. And it's the (speaking generally) meat heads who love/don't mind getting hazed, so that's what GLO's eventually fill with, and creates the stereotypes we've got, add perpetuates them....you are truly blind.

My thoughts are scattered now, I will try to reply less frustrated later, but to end...

Hazing is about creating friendships on psychologically-inspired false pretenses. I'd say think about that, but you're predispositioned against it already. haha. I'm sorry.

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/rough/twak.gif

To comment on Christi's post, our campus was just like that, except I was in the one sorority that didn't haze. And let me tell you something....money had nothing to do with our membership. We took quality women who wanted to belong to a quality organization and support our ideals.

You say because you were hazed, you're so much closer to your pledge sisters. Well, being 5 years out of school, I can tell you that I still talk to my pledge sisters at least once a week via email or the phone. We have semi-annual get togethers at the beach or something, and that didn't come because someone hazed us. It came because we all support and believe in our ritual and ideals. Many sororities on my campus believed in earning letters. We believed in the same....just via learning about the values and traditions, the ritual and ideals, that go with being a sister, and living your life by those ideas each day.

Finally, while we were going through our new member program, we were asked to do many things, but one that was most important was respect for sisters, ourselves and our letters. Hazing doesn't respect new members...it forces them to bond together to survive a period of time, and it also binds them in a resentment towards those who hazed them. I've seen it firsthand through friends who pledged hazing sororities, and it's truly a shame. I'm glad my sisterhood bonds came through respect, love and ritual. THAT'S what brother/sisterhood is all about.

Except you have the people like myself who respect themselves to much to be hazed...

HAZING SEPERATES THE WEAK FROM THE STRONG
 

LET ME GIVE YOU A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON MYSELF.

I AM A COMBAT VET (DESERT STORM - 1ST RANGER BATTALLION) WHO USED HIS GI BILL BENEFITS TO GO TO SCHOOL AT A MID-ATLANTIC STATE UNIVERSITY.

I PLEDGED TKE - AND I WAS UNDERWHELMED BY THE EXPERIENCE. I FELT THAT THE PLEDGE PROGRAM NEEDED REFINING TO STRENGTHEN THE TYPE OF MEN WE NEEDED.

I BECAME PLEDGEMASTER (HEGEMON) AND IMMEDIATELY INSTITUTED MORE MILITARY TECHNIQUES IN THE PLEDGE PROGRAM. OUR PLEDGES GET VERY LITTLE SLEEP, ( 4 HOURS/NIGHT), MUST GREET EVERY FRATER THEY SEE, CARRY A BRICK WITH TKE PAINTED ON IT, MUST GET EVERY FRATER'S SIGNATURE 3 TIMES A WEEK, HAVE EARLY MORNING BONDING RUNS, AND ENDURE ZEBRA WEEK. ZEBRA IS ONE WEEK WHERE THE PLEDGES EAT ONE MRE A DAY, WHILE GETTING NO SLEEP. IT IS HARD. WE LOSE ABOUT 80% OF OUR RUSH EVERY SEMESTER, BUT WE EASILY GET THE HIGH NUMBERS TO RUSH US.

WE HAVE A REP MUCH LIKE THE ELITE FORCES WHOM I SERVED WITH IN THE MILITARY. WE ARE VERY SELECTIVE AND NEITHER CONFIRM OR DENY WHAT WE DO. WE HAVE THE "TEKE MYSTIQUE"

I GRADUATED WITH A 3.80 GPA IN JUST THREE YEARS, PURCHASED A SMALL BUSINESS AND HAVE GROWN IT INTO A MEDIUM SIZE BUSINESS WITH ABOUT 80 EMPLOYEES. I HAVE STAYED ON AT CHAPTER ADVISOR. WE HAVE KEPT THE PLEDGE PROGRAM HARD.

WE HAVE AN ATTORNEY ON RETAINER. HE COSTS OUR CHAPTER $400/SEMESTER. I MATCH THE CHAPTER CONTRIBUTION FOR THE ATTORNEY. HE HAS BEEN TO OUR ADMINISTRATION AND HAS POINTED OUT THAT MOST OF THE HAZING POLICIES VIOLATE THE FIRST AMENDMENT. AS A RESULT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TURNED THE OTHER WAY AS A RESULT OF WHAT WE DO.

OUR FRATERS KNOW THEIR RIGHTS. IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO THE FRATERNITY - THEY KNOW:

1. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING TO EVERYONE.
2. CALL THE ATTORNEY IMMEDIATELY. WE PAY THE MONEY, SO THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM.

WE HAVE HAD TWO INCIDENTS WITH THE POLICE THE PAST FIVE YEARS WITH HAZING INVESTIGATIONS - AND WE HAVE BEEN CLEARED BOTH TIMES - BECAUSE WE KNOW OUR RIGHTS. WE KEEP THE BROTHERHOOD SACRED.

PLEDGING A FRATERNITY SHOULD BE HARD. BUT EVERYONE OF THOSE WHO HAVE COMPLETED OUR PROGRAM WILL TELL YOU THEY ARE PROUD OF IT.

WHAT DOES A PLEDGE LEARN? THEY LEARN THAT THE HUMAN BODY CAN ENDURE A LOT MORE THAN THEY THINK THEY CAN. THEY ALSO KNOW THAT HARD WORK AND PERSEVERANCE IS REWARDED.

SO, IF YOU WANT TO BE IN A NON-HAZING GLO, THAT'S UP TO YOU. I PREFER EARNING LETTERS. SO, RESPECT US FOR WHAT WE HAVE EARNED.

TEKE IS STRONG

Re: HAZING SEPERATES THE WEAK FROM THE STRONG
 

What do new members learn from getting very little sleep, carrying a brick around, and eating only one meal a day? :rolleyes: If you want them to bond in a constructive way, send them to a survival camp or a team building program.

And during all of this "boot camp", when do your new members learn what TKE is really all about? Your founding principle is "to aid college men in mental, moral, and social development.", as stated on your website? Also stated in your principles: "We believe that the essential elements of true brotherhood are love, charity, and esteem; love, that binds our hearts with the sturdy chords of fraternal affection; charity, that is impulsive to see virtues in a brother and slow to reprove his faults; esteem, that is respectful to the honest convictions of others and that refrains from treading upon that which is sacred to spirit and conscience;" When is this emphasized and learned? During the early morning bonding runs??

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but I truly believe you do TKE a disservice by airing your hazing in public, and saying it is what makes your chapter. And those of us who weren't hazed...we earned our letters and respect our tradition through love of sisterhood/brotherhood and living up to our ideals and ritual.

I agree with Shadokat. Most TKE chapters don't haze. The extent that your chapter goes is horrible. TKE is not the miliatry and you should not treat it as such. TKE is a social fraternity. Social is the main word. If you are about the miliatry you should let us all know your chapter name. I know you must have that miltary honor. If you think it is right to haze the way you do take it to internationals and the court and lets see who is right.

TKEISSTRONG,

the first amendment reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

How are your school's anti-hazing rules in violation of this amendment? I don't mean to be angry here, and I really would like to hear this argument. I'm all for freedom of religion, speech, press and assembly, but did the Founders(of the country and of TKE) really want us to paddle our pledges and have that "right" guaranteed under the constitution?

I'm going to go out on a limb and call TKEISSTRONG's bluff....he's not really a TKE

I agree completely that hazing in the true sense of the word must not be perpetuated. However, I must say that a lot of great bonding-type activities and fun traditions have been eliminated in the name of anti-hazing. I think I mentioned a few on another thread, such as the fun Big Sis/Lil Sis scavenger hunt we used to have....nobody ever complained and it was a fun time for everyone.....nope, can't do that, "making" the pledges search all over (and pick up little notes and gifts from their big along the way) is hazing!!! As with so many other things, it has been taken to the extreme and ruined a lot of the special aspects of greek life. Please understand, I am not condoning true hazing, ie: scaring pledges, forcing them to do chores, etc, making them do embarrassing things such as walking around campus in goofy clothes, or otherwise hurting them. I am talking about perfectly inocuous things that have been wiped out (such as making a decorative paddle for your little to hang on her wall) because the implications might offend someone.

Late to the party, but ErikaXO I happen to agree with you 100%.
Too bad some just don't recognize when enough is enough-take it to another level leading to someone getting hurt. There was so much positive from many of the exercises, but the brutal, physical stuff, alcohol and activities interfering with grades spoiled it for everyone- including the pledges.

Erika
I agree.
Hazing is bad.
Fun is Good.

Annoying people saying that fun things that pledges have to do constitute hazing....well these people suck.

Thanks Mom and Sig.....you know the more I think about this the madder I get. It is another symptom of a greater problem.....the "taking it to the extreme" syndrome. Next thing you know, somebody is going to actually try and claim harrassment or "hazing" of some sort by their professor for MAKING them do a 30 page paper.....as a matter of fact my mother was an English professor at an area university and she had a student who habitually had "car trouble" whenever she had an assignment due and didn't show up with it. After two or three times of this my mom finally told the girl she wasn't going to accept her paper. Well this little b!*@# told my mom she'd be hearing from her daddy, and ran home and raised you-know-what. Next thing you know, daddy calls up and reams out the department head, who calls my mom in and tells her she HAS to accept the paper, and she can't take off at all for it being late. What total BS. It's all about taking personal responsibility. Of course we all know the girl was totally lying about her car trouble, she was just lazy and didn't do her work on time. But even if it had been true, ok fine maybe once or twice. But after that you take responsibility for the fact that you need to find a reliable mode of transportation to class, be it catching a ride with someone else, taking a bus, walking, or maybe even trading in the junk heap for a car that drives!!!! But nooooo, whine and cry about it enough and it'll be taken care of for you. What's she going to do when "car trouble" is keeping her from getting to work? Her boss isn't going to even TALK to Daddy, the boss is just going to fire her!!!!

It's no different in a lot of these greek situations. A lot of these hazing rules came down not so much because all of these things which have been banned are really hazing.....it is a matter of people trying to cover themselves in a litigation-crazed world. Take the case that occurred at Kent a while back. At an event that involved a number of chapters (I believe it may have been Greek Week Greek games) a bunch of guys from a fraternity were jumping into a mud pit for fun. One of the younger guys (he may have been a pledge) decided to join them and dove in headfirst....well he ended up landing wrong and broke his neck.....his parents ended up trying to sue the fraternity, the other fraternities and sororities "involved" (anyone who was at the event) AND the university. I'm pretty sure it got dropped (something about negligence on the part of the son who dove in completely of his own volition)

OK, you want to hear a REALLY bad one? Try the sorority member who was slowly killing herself with a severe eating disorder. Her sorority sisters were growing increasingly concerned for her life after numerous attempts to help her. Finally, in desperation, members of the chapter contacted her parents, who brought their daughter home and got her into treatment that saved her life. So imagine the chapter's astonishment when the parents filed a lawsuit on their daughter's behalf......the crux? The chapter violated their daughter's right to privacy by telling THEM about her eating disorder!!!!!!!! Ok, hello??? These people are saying that the chapter should have kept their mouths shut and let Calista Flockhart starve herself to death....and they'd have been OKAY with that? I can just see them at the funeral, weeping over her coffin. "Yes, our little girl is gone, but darn it she went with her right to privacy intact!!! God bless those Omega Mus for preserving her civil liberties!!!!" Um, NO! They'd have still been calling the firm to file suit, only it would have been gross negligence for not intervening!!!! My chapter has specific policies in place regarding situations like that now, in order to help the sister while covering themselves.

Sorry to ramble, but it just drives me crazy that things like this are allowed to go on. Everyone is always coming down on the evil greeks...(God knows we Chi Omegas have had some of the worst accusations made on us lately!!!) but nobody is expected to take any personal responsibility. If you don't like something, just call your parents and if they can't get you your way they'll call Uncle Ralph down at the firm.....what is this teaching people about real life? How are these kids, greek or otherwise, expected to be able to handle the pressures and inevitable discomforts of life on their own? If a fraternity member can't handle learning some history about his chapter and being expected to attend some pledge class bonding sessions with his brothers, how is he going to handle the stress of a real job? There are always "dues' to be paid in life.....by taking this whole hazing thing too far we are intimating that anything that you HAVE to do is bad, anything that makes you put out any effort is unfair, that everything comes easy. And as I said in my last post, it takes away a lot of the most special and enjoyable parts of the greek experience that set it apart from the GDI life.

(Oops....I tripped getting down off my soapbox.....anyone know a good lawyer???)

I just want to let you all know that I posted a very long reply under the TKE board where I addressed this.

I am taking all of these comments in and am doing some soul-searching.

I won't rehash the long essay I wrote on the TKE board, but this has been a learning experience for me. (It's what I get for having a big mouth)

Lets just say that I'm doing some thinking, and I want to thank you for your input.

TEKE IS STRONG

i like your brothers comment

hazing promotes brotherhood, like fucking promotes chastity

haha, that's great!

1. Hazing is illegal. Period.
2. Who here thinks that the founders of their GLO wrote in hazing as a part of the original ritual? Not me.
3. I'm not going to argure with the people who think hazing is ok. It's like trying to convince someone their religion/faith is wrong. You believe what you want to/are taught.
4. Bottom line. If you haze, your charter will be pulled. Period.

No, I wasn't hazed. If I had been, I would have dropped my GLO. Simple as that. No degredation or wanting to belong is worth that. Eventually, there will be an end to the cylce. And it will be because someone brags a little too much about their "proud tradition" of hazing. And their Nationals will find out. Which will result in #4 above. Your charter will be pulled. Period.

SirToad--

What do your new members learn from getting yelled at, sleep deprived and paddled about your brotherhood? I'd love to hear that, because I don't see anything constructive in those activities. If making them afraid and tired, thusly having them resent you and making that the bond that ties their new member class together is what you're looking for, I guess you succeed.

Apology
 

I am listing this post, which BTW will be my last post here.
For a long period of time, I have been abusing the internet, and have been "Acting Out" on it.

Thanks to fraters of TKE, I have now come to the realization that my behaviors are wrong and am now in therapy to overcome my compulsive behavior on the internet.

I am not a chapter advisor for TKE, and have not been a vet in any war. This was made up because as my doctor says, "You did it for the thrill of it." Unhealthy behaviors like this are part of my disorder, which I am now seeking to correct, along with other destructive internet behavior.

I plead with anyone who reads this board to eliminate physical and mental abuse of any kind. I think that if you are asking if it is, that it is.

I also want to aplolgize for the remarks I made here concerning hazing - again it was all made up.

I have taken a big step in my recovery from my destructive behavior, I have admitted that my life is unmanagable because of my behaviors on the internet. It is a great weight off my shoulders.

I apologize to any one I may offended, and again, I plead with you that all GLO's, need to follow the advise of their fraternity and eliminate destructive behavior.

Certainly a social fraternity should be that, and not something to "die for."

Shawn A.

Shawn, this site can be a very posotive place for you to be unless you are in screw you mode! As you have seen on this site, you have not only friends in the TEKES, but in all Fraternitys and Soroitys!


We are Greeks and if push comes to shove, we help our own! We take enuff heat from the outside world for stupid and mnoronic acts by the few, but againg we all take the brunt of it!

It is your decision of course to drop out of this site, but you may be making another mistake! Hang for a while and see what is in the air!

This may help you more than an over price pschyo ologist! We do not take money and we will work with you!:)

We all have problems at one time or another but give us a shot! I for one, if you get out of line will be happy to tell you along with a lot of other GChaters!;)

Fraternally Yours,