Dr. Fran Becque is a woman. She was initiated into Pi Beta Phi when she was in college. Are you suggesting that Dr. Becque is an example of a woman whose achievements are so great that a men's fraternity might extend her membership? :confused:

Yes, I know, I've communicated with her, and I know she is a Pi Beta Phi sister. She is the closest person in the "Greek Universe" today that I can see to having that Potential. I'm not saying it is likely, but if it were to happen, I'd expect it to be a group with as little crossover with Pi Beta Phi as possible (either one of the NALFO or APIDA ethnic fraternities???)

Sorry to have taken this so off topic.

I wonder if anyone in this thread actually loves a trans person in their lives.

A person can be loved and can be included in parts of one’s life without including that person in all aspects of one’s life, including activities and memberships.

What she said. I loved a transperson who died. Still, that person was quite mentally ill and not in touch with reality a good deal of the time.

Why can’t we evaluate each transgender person on their own actions, values and merits…as opposed to just mass accepting an entire group of people…which, like any group of people, contains those from every walk of life (good and bad).

I’m a woman before I’m anything, and if someone is making women feel uncomfortable…well, that’s sketchy and I’m really not too interested in obligatory empathy for them because they belong to a certain demographic.

That being said…as important as defending women is to me…if someone is a woman and they are a crazy lying crackpot (Jackie from the Rolling Stone rape article comes to mind)…I don’t give two shits about them. Should I automatically empathize with someone who publicly accused members of an organization of a violent gang rape (that never happened) because we have the same body parts? Because I know what it’s like to be a woman or love a woman?

Nope, it’s time that transgender people stand or fail on their own actions and merits. You don’t get waived to second base because you’re transgender and in some ways, life is harder for you.

(FWIW I’m speaking of Artemis. Idk about the AI KKG member. But COME TF ON. Who gets a state capital internship with a 1.9 GPA????)

Well said.

Agreed. No one appreciates the “Special Snowflake’ of any sort.

Someone feeling uncomfortable around someone else may or may not be the "someone else" person's fault. Because there are a lot of people who are uncomfortable around Muslims. There are a lot of people who are uncomfortable around people of color. A person should not be banned from an organization just because some members of the organization feel uncomfortable around them.

I volunteered with my org for a long time and had many situations where a member was doing something they shouldn't and there are processes to deal with that. Those should be followed. Whether they are transgender shouldn't even matter.

Ultimately, the courts threw this case out because they are saying that it's not their place to deal with our internal membership issues and I whole heartedly agree. Last thing I want is the government getting involved in membership.

Women should get a boner-free sorority house, which they were not getting with Artemis around.

And does anyone feel like sisters who complained were totally ignored? "Oh, don't be silly, that's not even anything that should go to the honor court--you transphobic bitches."

Lol!!!!

Most college women I've worked with were mad that they couldn't have men upstairs and lived in co-ed dorms before they had an opportunity to live in a sorority house. Most are forced to live in for a year because nobody wants to live somewhere that they can't have alcohol or men in their own private space. I don't think most of them are looking for a 'boner-free' house.

The crux of the whole Artemis issue is that according to the women who sued, 1) her GPA did not meet the requirement that all other pledges had to meet to receive a bid 2) she was voted on in a way different from all other rushees that did not permit the members to vote anonymously.

If either of these things aren't true, or even partially true (if say there were other pledges with similarly bad GPAs who got bids) KKG needs to stop hiding behind "membership selection is private" and say that the women who sued are full of shit.

ANY person who came into a Greek org under such circumstances would engender resentment among at least some members, no matter who they were. Also remember...this is a 40ish member chapter. This isn't a "well the only people who know how things really worked out are the rush chairs" SEC type school.

No doubt they didn't want his boner, only certain boners.

Yes, and what they never understood was that if they were allowed to have their boyfriend, then their sisters could also bring home any random guy they happened to pick up that night.

I agree with 33Girl that the real issues are about whether membership selection procedures were followed. But again, that's not for the government to decide. It's an internal problem.

One of our roommates in Hawaii was a shy, quiet nurse by day. At night, she trolled for sailors down near Pearl Harbor and she would bring them back to her bedroom. The next morning, there was often some sleazy-looking sailor eating breakfast alone in our living room.

We all got good locks for our doors.

I hollered!

THIS!!

I am blaming you for the wine that just went up my nose, carnation!

Has everyone seen Kappa's guide for supporting LGBT+ members? There are a few mind boggling things in it, IMHO.

Requiring chapters to provide a single room for Transgender members with no additional expense to the member. The chapter's HCB would be required to pay the empty bed fee.

Allowing gay sisters, in a relationship, to live in a room in the house together, with the only worry being what if the relationship didn't work out and what would happen then? I'm sorry, but in my org no one is supposed to be having sex in the house, straight or gay. How is this fair to sisters who have boyfriends that aren't allowed to have sex with their boyfriends in the house?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Kapp...embers2021.pdf

First line: Every time I think I’ve found f my favorite Carnation post, you manage to come through with a new favorite!

Second line: YES! We reach women to speak up, say something when you’re uncomfortable, etc and they did. But it’s like women just automatically CANNOT express discomfort if the person is transgender- and that’s not fair.

I’ve worked in social services settings for years and one of the things that is always preached is that all the people participating have the same rights- to be comfortable, feel safe, feel heard, etc. no one participant is more important than another. I think it is applicable to many group experiences and especially group living experiences.

Just because women in college (some, not all) want to date men and have access to those men (of their choosing) sometimes in their bedrooms does not mean they should have to be comfortable with this situation. That’s like saying that if a woman is heterosexual, she should be okay with weird, gross people catcalling her because she likes men anyway so what’s the problem?

Spot on Winter.

Exactly! Is there a woman alive who doesn't know what it feels like to always be on guard because of past experiences? My grandmother and my mother have both talked about how in their youth, men they knew and men they didn't would make random grabs, make unwelcome sexual comments, and so forth.

It's no different now except we get the message that we're supposed to shut up if a man transitions. We have the right to speak up without being shamed or ignored!

I think she’s Bi, personally.

I think *winter* and carnation get the Common Sense Award, with Zack winning the male division.

In reality, it's hard to believe that this is even under discussion. Only up to 1.7 percent of the population are intersex, but they need to be in a sorority, AND live in the house?

Hi. I'm going to chime in with the millenial perspective no one asked for. I know there are plenty of women who have devoted decades of service to their sororities and view acceptance of trans members as a seismic and incomprehensible change. I happened to grow up in a place where acceptance of trans people has been common place for a long time - but I have family members whose experiences and opinions are VERY different from mine. Something I've heard from them a lot is frustration that it feels like they can't have any conversation relating to inclusion of trans people because it just ends with them being yelled at rather than heard. That's completely justified- people should be able to have conversations without feeling talked down to or yelled at. On the other hand, I think a reason a lot of people my age and younger end up frustrated is that they feel like folks who are skeptical of including trans people in certain groups - sports teams, GLOs, etc. - often speak about trans people in an invasive way you just wouldn't speak about a non-trans person. I personally can't say I've ever seen another GC thread that spoke so candidly about a collegiate member's sex organs or speculated on their sexual orientation. I fully believe it's possible to have a civil conversation about how trans or non-binary members fit into GLOs but I would hope it could be done in a way that is respectful of particular individuals.

Intersex and transgender are two completely different things. Intersex means (oversimplifying) you were born with genitalia that can have features of both biological sexes. That is nowhere near the issue here.

The terminology has changed a lot over the years. Terms that were totally acceptable years ago aren't now and no one makes grand announcements when they change; you innocently use them one day and people go for the jugular. And a lot of people are demanding that everyone use their preferred vocab and that won't be happening.

I stand corrected. I was doing my best to cover all bases without going through the whole alphabet LGBTQ+ bit.

FWIW, I’m only three months away from being a millennial. I was raised around all kinds of people, including transgender people. I’m not exactly straight myself.

Just because someone doesn’t agree with the actions of a particular individual does not give anyone the right to just assume they’re some closed minded person who just fell off the back of a turnip truck.

Perhaps if people stopped collectively talking to “us” that way, they’d get further.

You're absolutely correct - I don't mean to suggest that someone's opinion is a reflection of a lack of education or experience on their part. I also recognize that generalities based on age aren't going to capture the nuances of opinions- again, poor phrasing on my part.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I guess for me extending membership to people with male genitalia is dissolving the single sex barrier sororities had up until recently. It doesn’t matter if they feel that they are women. Physically they are not. It’s the same with allowing males to compete on female sports teams. A mediocre male athlete still has a testosterone advantage despite taking female hormones, as proven by the UPenn swimmer. . How fair is that? Why is the NCAA willing to compromise the integrity of womens sports, and negate the chances of hundreds of female athletes success for a minute minority of athletes who couldn’t achieve greatness on the male side of the sport. And why is it that sorority leadership is willing to compromise the comfort and safety( as some of the KKG members expressed in the Artemis article) of its initiated members, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of alumna donations that are drying up, because of these new policies, which were decided on by a committee behind closed doors , not up for vote by the membership at large? These actions marginalize women. The first sororities founded in the Midwest were begun to offer friendship, support, and a haven of safety and comfort to women who were often not welcomed in a male dominated student body. Women need to stand for women first. It should not be “well, if you aren’t comfortable around Artemis or you feel that sororities should not extend membership to transgender people then there’s the door.” It should be, “I hear you sisters. Your feelings are important to us. Let’s take this under consideration and have the entire international membership decide.” But that’s not happening.

YES!!!! YES!!! HEAR HEAR!!!!!

Bravo, FSUZeta! Yes!

FSUZeta killed the entire thread with this response. Everybody put on your nuclear blast glasses.
https://youtube.com/shorts/8pztSupdQ...OzVvQTITNZZzCf

Edit: she dropped the bomb from the FSUZeta bomber plane, with honeychile as the pilot and carnation the copilot. They said “Drop that shit, FSUZeta!” Lol

It seems this forum is woefully uninformed regarding current research in respect to transwomen participating in athletics, so it's unsurprising that you also share a majority opinion that trans women are not women. A forum filled with TERF's is surprising given the origins of so many sororities - exclusion from places they felt capable of contributing to equally (not to create "safe spaces" for the women on campus as others have mentioned). I can only hope that none of you represent your organizations leadership currently because the lack of understanding of the current collegiate experience is very apparent and it is those younger members that are the lifeblood of our groups. There will be no hill left to die on if this is where you feel like planting your flag.

:rolleyes:

Do you notice something about this thread? People of varying opinions were having a civil discussion without name calling. And then you showed up. Your opinion is welcome unless you are unable to express yourself without reverting to elementary school playground insults. Please refrain from name calling or you will be banned. As to the hill? It will have crumbled much sooner without alumnae donations.

I'm sorry, I'm genuinely confused by what you mean? How am I breaking any rules? TERF is an acronym that means Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. The ideas being shared here align with the ideas of someone who is excluding transwomen from feminism. It is truly disappointing that this forum sees my own opinion on the matter as a "childish" attack. I am merely expressing my viewpoint on the issue being discussed.

Additionally do you believe young people will never make money and donate to their organizations? That's a surprisingly short sighted perspective that only current donors are the future donors as well.

No, you are not just expressing your opinion. Calling someone a TERF is intended to be an insult. This won't be tolerated here.