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-   -   AOII Eliminates Legacy Policy (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=247126)

SWTXBelle 07-02-2020 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Rose (Post 2476617)
Sure, AOII could have given members more of a heads up or officially involved the overall membership more in the writing of this policy. If my sisters are unhappy with this change in policy, I’d encourage them to make it known to AOII members and the fraternity. I believe that we can have a respectful discussion (from all sides) within our fraternity’s membership.

Anyone is certainly entitled to discuss their opinions, and it’s great that you (and I’m sure many others in this thread) know AOIIs. However, I don’t see the point of attempting to speculate on the collective will of a membership that one is not a part of. I would give your organizations the same respect. If you know an AOII who is unhappy, encourage her to approach her sisters about this.
Given the hostile treatment I've seen given to members of organizations who have disagreed with policy changes they had no "head's up" nor were they consulted about, I totally understand if they don't feel like their concerns are considered valid and they don't want to subject themselves to abuse. If their opinion wasn't taken into consideration before implementing the policy, why would it matter afterwards? Is there any chance the policy would be rescinded?

What one NPC group does may influence what others do, especially if it reaches the level of being considered for a Unanimous Agreement. As to speculating on collective will, refusal to enumerate how members were included can be expected to be interpreted as they were not. If AOII members tell us they were not consulted, they will be taken at their word. "Oooooo it's a secret" is fine and dandy, but optics matter.


* ETA - Note that I don't expect to know what is in the document - the issue is who was consulted.

If Gamma Phi were to do the same, I'd expect my panhellenic sisters to take notice, too.

Cheerio 07-02-2020 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Rose (Post 2476617)
Sure, AOII could have given members more of a heads up or officially involved the overall membership more in the writing of this policy. If my sisters are unhappy with this change in policy, I’d encourage them to make it known to AOII members and the fraternity. I believe that we can have a respectful discussion (from all sides) within our fraternity’s membership.

Anyone is certainly entitled to discuss their opinions, and it’s great that you (and I’m sure many others in this thread) know AOIIs. However, I don’t see the point of attempting to speculate on the collective will of a membership that one is not a part of. I would give your organizations the same respect. If you know an AOII who is unhappy, encourage her to approach her sisters about this.
Any "respectful discussion" ought to have occurred BEFORE such a measure was finalized. And as others have mentioned, optics matter.

Iota_JWH 07-02-2020 01:43 PM
I am quite certain another NPC group had a legacy policy of essentially "A legacy will be offered a bid." This policy was in effect a few decades ago, not that is was adhered to then. I recall it only came into play when an Alumna made an angry phone call when her legacy was not invited back to a rush party. I wonder what happened when that policy was changed.

Titchou 07-02-2020 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheerio (Post 2476624)
Any "respectful discussion" ought to have occurred BEFORE such a measure was finalized. And as others have mentioned, optics matter.
Amen and Amen

SWTXBelle 07-02-2020 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iota_JWH (Post 2476626)
I am quite certain another NPC group had a legacy policy of essentially "A legacy will be offered a bid." This policy was in effect a few decades ago, not that is was adhered to then. I recall it only came into play when an Alumna made an angry phone call when her legacy was not invited back to a rush party. I wonder what happened when that policy was changed.
I don't know if any sororities had an actual written policy, but I know the expectation of many alumnae, in the past and up to today, is that every legacy will be given a bid. A great deal of stress and anger has been the result of that de facto, or simply misunderstood, policy. Whatever the policy, it is important that alumnae be aware of it and its limitations.

FSUZeta 07-02-2020 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 2476605)
I'd be interested in seeing some actual numbers in terms of how many WOC are going through NPC recruitment, and how many are given a bid. I realize that may not be possible, but from my admittedly restricted view, the problem is more a case of getting WOC to go through recruitment rather than those who do not getting a bid. I am also aware that this will vary widely amongst campuses, but i would be very surprised if the issue is not more one of getting WOC to come through recruitment instead of those who do being denied a bid. Are those who are coming through dropping out/not getting a bid in higher numbers than traditional PNMs? Are we attracting WOC in the first place? If not, why not? I'd think exploring those questions should be the focus before deciding the best way to proceed.
Thank you. I have often said that NPC needs to compile these numbers. Then we can have reliable information that we can use to affect change(if necessary) without emotional knee jerk reactions.

SWTXBelle 07-02-2020 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSUZeta (Post 2476631)
Thank you. I have often said that NPC needs to compile these numbers. Then we can have reliable information that we can use to affect change(if necessary) without emotional knee jerk reactions.
Or "feel good" actions that do nothing to actually address the issues.

PersistentDST 07-02-2020 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation (Post 2476610)
If a woman has had a certain NPHC group on her mind for years and she's done the required things but still doesn't get in, what happens to her? Is she shunned by other sororities because she showed her preference for one? Will she always have to be independent?
I can speak to that because I was denied before I made it. If you truly love that organization, you will try again when the opportunity presents itself. Many ladies don’t get in the first time they apply. I didn’t just want to be Greek, I wanted to be a member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Incorporated.

Ladies can choose to pursue other organizations as they like. I know plenty of ladies who had joined other sororities after being denied from one. It’s not a good look, but it’s their choice. They may be a topic of conversation, some Sorors don’t take kindly to that.

carnation 07-02-2020 04:28 PM
How many times can they try before it looks bad and they finally give up? It seems like people would be talking about them after a few tries.

PersistentDST 07-02-2020 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation (Post 2476645)
How many times can they try before it looks bad and they finally give up? It seems like people would be talking about them after a few tries.
As many times as they want. I know many people who have tired multiple times and it doesn’t look “bad” to us, it shows they won’t give up. There are many reasons why a woman can be denied, not just because they didn’t get the votes. We have a rigorous application process with specific requirements. “Persistent” is a part of my line name. I earned it because I didn’t give up on my dream. Delta is a lifetime commitment rather you got in the first try as an undergrad or the 4th try as an alumnae member. Some of the most rewarding experiences for me are watching women who had to wait (because of life reasons or being denied previously) finally be initiated. There is absolutely nothing like it. :)

robinseggblue 07-02-2020 11:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Rose (Post 2476598)
Actually, a few weeks ago thousands of AOII collegiate and alumnae members signed an AOII-member-organized and internally circulated petition asking AOII to do better with regard to diversity and inclusion.
I have to say that I'm impressed by this. Way to go AOIIs, trying to create the change you want to see within your organization.

There's a lot of work that needs to be done to make GLOs more inclusive and inviting to POC and especially to Black women, given the awful history of exclusion within the NPC organizations. I'm glad your members seem to be having hard conversations, organizing, and speaking up. That's a great first step.

carnation 07-02-2020 11:18 PM
We can have all the conversations we want and have loads of diversity discussions and insist on change, but if you've seen some discussions on GC this week, you'll know that many black women do not want to pledge an NPC group. They have their dreams set on the NPHC. I hope that they'll follow their dream of whichever council they want but for 20 years, I have been encouraging my daughters' black friends to look at NPC groups too and they aren't having it.

Also, the major problem with AOII's act, if you have followed that, was that they made a huge decision without consulting the membership. Their members certainly did not have any "hard" conversations. Always a very poor leadership decision and one that can cost them more money in donations than they can imagine.

PersistentDST 07-03-2020 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation (Post 2476695)
We can have all the conversations we want and have loads of diversity discussions and insist on change, but if you've seen some discussions on GC this week, you'll know that many black women do not want to pledge an NPC group. They have their dreams set on the NPHC. I hope that they'll follow their dream of whichever council they want but for 20 years, I have been encouraging my daughters' black friends to look at NPC groups too and they aren't having it.
...and many do want to pledge a NPC group. We are not a monolith.

We are diverse in where we come from, our interests and desires. If actives take the attitude that they shouldn’t put much energy into diversity because there is the NPHC, NALFO and MGC sororities, they are making unfortunate assumptions about many women that could be great additions to their sororities and would yield the same results they have had in the past. Every Black woman is not trying to be in the NPHC.

There are plenty of Black girls and women who would be open to the NPC experience (and MANY who already are). We can use Alabama 2013 as a prime example. More Black PNM’s were given a legit opportunity and since then I have seen more and more Black women running to their homes on Bidday. I wonder how many qualified Black women tried in the past and weren’t extended the opportunity or wanted to join but knew the odds were against them so they didn’t even bother.

I see many schools that already have diverse chapters across the board, so not only can it be done, it has been done already. They must be doing something that provides a welcoming environment for everyone. And it shows that many Black women and other WOC are, in fact, open to the NPC.

When I arrived at my alma mater, I did not see one Black woman in the NPC. By my junior year, I saw a few Black women in a couple of chapters. Now there’s a few in ALL of the chapters. I saw chapters go from generally ignoring us at organization fairs to introducing themselves and telling us about their sisterhoods. Even though I wasn’t interested, I felt welcomed for the first time. Clearly, that has made the difference for many WOC at my alma mater.

SWTXBelle 07-03-2020 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PersistentDST (Post 2476699)
...and many do want to pledge a NPC group. We are not a monolith.

There are plenty of Black girls and women who would be open to the NPC experience (and MANY who already are). We can use Alabama 2013 as a prime example. The first Black PNM’s were given a legit opportunity and since then I have seen more and more Black women running to their homes on Bidday. I wonder how many qualified Black women tried in the past and weren’t extended the opportunity or wanted to join but knew the odds were against them so they didn’t even bother.
Point of order - Gamma Phi Beta at the University of Alabama pledged a black PNM in 2003, making her the first. https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/artic...s/606110528/TL

PersistentDST 07-03-2020 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 2476700)
Point of order - Gamma Phi Beta at the University of Alabama pledged a black PNM in 2003, making her the first. https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/artic...s/606110528/TL
Apologies for the lack of knowledge on that and I’m glad that someone gave her an opportunity for Sisterhood.

Sororitysock 07-03-2020 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTXBelle (Post 2476700)
Point of order - Gamma Phi Beta at the University of Alabama pledged a black PNM in 2003, making her the first. https://www.tuscaloosanews.com/artic...s/606110528/TL
Quote:
Originally Posted by PersistentDST (Post 2476701)
Apologies for the lack of knowledge on that and I’m glad that someone gave her an opportunity for Sisterhood.
True, but they paid for doing so for over a decade and guaranteed themselves a spot at the bottom of that hierarchy. The other chapters saw what happened to them and learned the lesson of what happens to sororities that bid black women. It wasn't until 2015, when the actives of multiple chapters rebelled against the alumnae, that things changed. Each year we see more and more black women in the NPC there, so there obviously was an interest but an understanding that it wasn't possible.

carnation 07-03-2020 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AOII Rose (Post 2476704)
This type of all or nothing remark is exactly what I was talking about with regard to making generalizations about an organization you are not a part of or privy to information about. I have seen this all over this thread, and by looking at usernames and signatures I believe that I have seen only one AOII other than myself.

I came on this thread to present the fact that AOIIs are taking action to amplify the voices and interests of WOC within our organization and asking the Executive Board to step up and start taking decisive steps toward increased diversity and inclusion within the organization. That is relevant within the context of this decision being revealed, whether AOIIs specifically asked for changes in the legacy policy or not, because these changes were rolled out with the intention of breaking down barriers to membership for non-legacy PNMs.

I completely agree with my sister (I think!) who said:





I and many other alumnae are hoping that this is a first step and not just a "feel good" action. We are the ones with skin in the game regarding this, since our daughters will no longer be considered legacies during recruitment to an organization that is dear to us. However, I see this as a necessary step in order to put everyone on equal footing and make sure that everyone has the same chance during the recruitment process.

Of course, as I said, this is a first step and should in no way be considered a one-and-done "feel good" action. I am confident that AOIIs will do our best to hold our XB accountable for that.



I completely agree with PersistentDST here. There were Black women in all the chapters at my undergraduate campus and there were thriving NPHC & MGC organizations there as well. It is possible to give WOC a real choice of what type of experience they want to have, and that is something that we as the NPC should commit to and strive for.



^^ This right here too!

There is *a lot* of uncomfortable and hard work that NPC organizations need to do to be truly welcoming to all PNMs, no matter their background. Like I said, I think that we should commit to it. I obviously have no influence in any organization other than my own, but I am proud that my sisters are taking action to commit to this.

And part of that means putting our money where are mouths are and taking actions that will present challenges for us, like letting go of the legacy policy. Again, I see this only as a first step. But if you think that this policy change won't affect me personally, you are wrong. And yet, I am willing to make this sacrifice and more to have a more inclusive organization.

I hope that you will ask yourselves what, if anything, you are willing to change and to give up to make your organizations more inclusive. I'm not here to tell anyone what they should do or give a prescription, but I'll just leave you with that thought.
I think some of you people think that down here in the South, we're lazing on the porches strumming our banjos and thinking of ways we can keep out non-whites. Well, too bad you can't see my Facebook.

There are a lot of us who have quietly worked for diversity for years, often achieving it, without any need for Grand Statements or Woke Proclamations. And yes, some of my family has been involved in this and yes, SEVEN are AOIIs.

There was no need to screw up legacies with the little they get. There was no need for AOII to send their patsy to Greekchat to proclaim the Great Thing they have done. DG has already sent theirs.:rolleyes: We were expecting this.

Now you can go back to your exec folks and report proudly that you spit out your piece and that you convinced all of us that we now believe that your disastrous PR move was the best thing since cell phones.

Only we don't. You failed, bye.

SWTXBelle 07-03-2020 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnation (Post 2476714)
I think some of you people think that down here in the South, we're lazing on the porches strumming our banjos and thinking of ways we can keep out non-whites. Well, too bad you can't see my Facebook.

There are a lot of us who have quietly worked for diversity for years, often achieving it, without any need for Grand Statements or Woke Proclamations. And yes, some of my family has been involved in this and yes, SEVEN are AOIIs.

There was no need to screw up legacies with the little they get. There was no need for AOII to send their patsy to Greekchat to proclaim the Great Thing they have done. DG has already sent theirs.:rolleyes: We were expecting this.

Now you can go back to your exec folks and report proudly that you spit out your piece and that you convinced all of us that we now believe that your disastrous PR move was the best thing since cell phones.

Only we don't. You failed, bye.
So predictable. I always look at the date someone joined, and the number and content of posts. I think I'm a little insulted that some think we aren't smart enough to figure out what is happening.

Cheerio 07-03-2020 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sororitysock (Post 2476442)
Like Delta Gamma, Alpha Omicron Pi has eliminated preferential treatment of legacies during recruitment. Changes include:

-Chapters will not be required to invite legacies back to the first invitational round of primary recruitment.

-Legacies who accept an invitation to the final preference party, like all PNMs who attend our preference party, must be placed on the chapter’s final bid list per the NPC Policy. This means that legacies do not have to be placed at the top of the bid list.

-If a legacy is released, the Alumnae Advisory Committee (AAC) should contact the AOII relative via telephone or email as a courtesy to inform the AOII relative of the legacy’s release.

https://www.alphaomicronpi.org/news/...1ysKwp_QI6lRaA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iota_JWH (Post 2476626)
I am quite certain another NPC group had a legacy policy of essentially "A legacy will be offered a bid." This policy was in effect a few decades ago, not that is was adhered to then. I recall it only came into play when an Alumna made an angry phone call when her legacy was not invited back to a rush party. I wonder what happened when that policy was changed.
LEGACIES still exist, with a CHANGED definition, now in AOII. AOII didn't eliminate legacies, AOII only eliminated special treatment of legacies. When a daughter is born to an AOII, said daughter is still defined as an AOII LEGACY.

AFAIK AOII has NEVER defined legacies as young women who shall be offered an AOII bid no matter what. A legacy who shall be offered a bid automatically, as in Iota_JWH quote above, appears to me to be MORE than a legacy; she's an automatic sister with the absolute right to wear the initiation pin of her mother from her date of birth.

carnation 07-03-2020 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheerio (Post 2476736)
LEGACIES still exist, with a CHANGED definition, now in AOII. AOII didn't eliminate legacies, AOII only eliminated special treatment of legacies. When a daughter is born to an AOII, said daughter is still defined as an AOII LEGACY.
I don't think anyone cares if they're labeled a legacy if the special treatment is gone. It only comes up during recruitment.


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