HELP
 

Can someone provide a link for the Prejudism thread, I could not find it thanks.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I promised myself I'd stay away from this thread but it sucked me in. I find some things so strange about this whole thread. Two comments really stuck out to me.

1. At first I didn't see a problem if the BGLO brothers gave them the shirt, but then I saw that they didn't. Two years ago for Halloween, one of the brothers dressed up as another brother, who is Indian, dark, and with long hair (which was damn sexy and a lot better kept up than most girls!). That brother who was "ridiculed" thought it was hilarious. The white brother even colored in his face. I guess it just depends on what kind of sense of humor people have. ----- that was from PM_Mama

and the second

2. This came from the article about the bi-racial girl who was a member of an NPC sorority on Alabama's campus:

Though Houston enjoyed her time in the greek system, she said her race occasionally resulted in some uncomfortable situations.

She told of a Thursday night swap party where a fraternity member invited her on a date to a football game. The next day, she was told the fraternity's president had vetoed the date, saying it "didn't look right" to have a half-black woman accompanying a white man to the game.

At other times, the racial insensitivity was more indirect.

"Lots of times they would forget what they were talking about, and n-words would go flying like bullets," Houston said. "When I asked them about it, they would say, 'Oh, we don't think of you like that.' Well, you should, because that's what I am."



Both of these comments really bother me. What the hell is going on? What self-respecting minority, better yet, what self-respecting person, would re-main in a situation where they were not totally excepted for who they are. What bi-racial person would stay in a sorority where there are obvious racial issues, if you can use the N word with a straight face I have a problem with you and although she spoke up, she should have left the organization completely, especially if it happened "lots of times" s she stated. WTF, do you really need to be "accepted" and I use that word loosely so badly that you would subject yourself to that. Some people really need to get a grip.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The name Jackie Robinson comes to mind.

Who's losing sleep? I'd never lose sleep over a racism issue. Don't bother me none.

I think the real issue (at least for me, and I suspect this is what librasoul is saying as well) with what some have termed 'name calling' on your end is that your argumental style is very confrontational, and very personal at times.

Sometimes, good points you make get lost when people take portions of a post personally, and this limits the effectiveness of the post.

Re: Dum Dum Ditty
 

A quick question here; have you lived in all 50 states of The United States of America?

Very good points once again Rob.

Would you just answer the question?

You stated in another post about backing statements up with facts, so I would like to know if you have lived in all 50 states of The U.S.?

I think he was getting at how you post insults w/o actually calling people names, you know the "blublockers" and "aunt cleo" comments. Both aid in an argument losing credibility.

So To Sad, to let a good mind go to waste!

Read All Of My Signature!:eek:

Yes, racism stinks, and a lot of it is hidden. I think its hard for people that are not minorities to understand. For example, I have watched about 10 taxis go by before one stopped for me, the other taxis could be busy, but it could have something to do with me being a black male. When I was 12 I was accused of stealing a candy bar from a small mom and pop grocery store, sure they may assumed I stole it because I was young, or it may have been because I was black as well. Whos to say but I lean torwards the latter. The grocery store incident was my first experience with racism. Just thought I would share.

I AM An Old White Male!


Is there Predudjice!

????

Already took my teeth out and put in the glass!

My Feelings of disrespect are not with the Members of GC as I have come to Know and love you all!

My Problem is with a person who is trying to tear up a thread!


Get in my butt, you will not be the Virgins of Plato!

I get very tired of many things as being of short retention span.

But bashing everyone is not in my way of endouring my many pals on this site!


???? DO ANYONE GET THE POINT?????:confused:



"If you are an asswhole, at least be a perfect asswhole":p

Re: Re: Re: Dum Dum Ditty
 

Damasa is black.....






Below the belt! ;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Dum Dum Ditty
 

Ok you totally lost me on this one . . . Way over my head.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dum Dum Ditty
 

I believe she means as in WELL-ENDOWED (as in the stereotype) :rolleyes:

Re: What are you saying?
 

so let me get this straight, blackface and nooses is just clean fun? that's news to me. why was it stupid that the photographer published the pics? they hired him for that. if it was just clean fun, then it wasn't stupid.

i highly doubt that. the que's giving their letters to another organization? right, that'll be the day.

i highly doubt that. the que's giving their letters to another organization? right, that'll be the day. if someone who's not frat was wearing my letters, their taking if off, or i'm taking it off them.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dum Dum Ditty
 

Oh, now I get it. He has a big d*ck or something? :confused:

Yup this is a stereotype.

But remember...

ALL sterotypes are based somewhat upon a certain truth!!!;)

But seriously...

I LOVE reading posts like this! It really makes me realize how fortunate I am that I attended a university that this kind of discussion happened back in the 1950's. Here we are in 2002, and people are still up in arms about racism and about "who didn't get in because of his/her skin color". When I sit here and look at my fraternity composite on my wall, and see African-American, Asian-American, Hispanics, Jewish, Native-American, and maybe even an Hindu or two, I realize how lucky I am. Because each of my brothers has taught me something different that I will treasure for the rest of my life. I have been to a Passover dinner, observed the beginning of Ramadam, celebrated Chinese New Year, had authentic Mexican food at the home of one of my brothers, as well as enjoyed an extremely WASP'y Thankgiving dinner at the home of one of the more affluent brothers (and that was a sight to behold-I think that I was the first black man to ever sit down to dinner with them!).:)

It really doesn't matter who's right here, because the simple fact of the matter can be summed up in a quote by a man who had extensive knowledge of life in Alabama:

"...Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere..."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

As long as even something so minute as fraternity/sorority rush can have this affect on so many people, and can stir such emotion, things are not better, nor will they be for a long time. Thank you all for sharing your feelings, and making me realize how important true brotherhood is to me...

I really wasn't going to do this but since everyone wants to jump down Neicy's throat for every little word she says, I have to get some things straight about this comment that was made. PM_Mama you live in Detroit? Or do you live in the suburbs that surround Detroit? I'm sorry but the city of Detroit is less than 10 percent white (probably less than 5 percent white) And YES whites did choose to segregate themselves from the black people. If you look at the history of Detroit, as soon as black people started to move in the neighborhoods, the white people moved out. And if you are saying that the black neighborhoods are the projects, then I guess Detroit is one big project, because white people tried to get as far away from black people as possible.

I'm sorry to get off of the subject, but from the looks of it NO ONE is staying on the subject at all on this thread which is really getting on my nerves. For the record I just want to say that I agree that Alabama is ONE of the racist states in America. Neicy didn't say it was THE RACIST, she just said it was one of them. My mother's family was born and raised in Alabama and one of the reasons why they left to come to Detroit was because of the racism. Even though Alabama has improved since then, whenever my family goes and visit, they encounter more racism in one week than I had to endure my entire life. But anyway....

CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF THE THREAD!!

Not to get off the subject, but you're talking about my city
 

I LIVE in Detroit, not AROUND Detroit, but smack dab on the west side. Detroit is one of the most segregated cities peroid. It's not from lack of beautiful neighborhoods. To be honest, my "minority" neighborhood is nicer than anything you will see in Southgate (which is three cities and a township away). Which is probally why non-minorities are moving back in droves. Example: When was the last time you drove through East English Villiage or Indian Village?

Back to the topic:
What alarms me the most is how anyone can view the UA "situation" as anything funny, or make light of it. Even if my Bruhs gave those boys anything with their letters on (which I am positive they did not) does that condone the act or the connotation?

The bad rep wasn't the only reason she wasn't given a bid. In fact, it was the third strike against her. (Please note that, as an alumna, I did not vote during 2001 recruitment. What I report here is only what I observed.)

The first and foremost reason that she was cut my my house is that she was a junior. We don't, as a general rule, take juniors. We usually don't take many sophomores, either. Sometimes there will be 2-3 sophs in a pledge class. Is this a fair practice? Probably not, but rush at Alabama is extremely competitive and we can make quota and house total without taking older rushees. I don't think there are any houses at UA that will take juniors during formal recruitment, unless the girl is outstanding (has a 4.0 or better GPA and/or is Miss Alabama or something). There are probably 3 or 4 houses that will consider juniors during COB. The reason for this is that it's better for the longevity & continuity of our chapter to take girls who will be there for 4 years. I know that there are threads here at GC that encourage juniors/seniors to go through rush. I think that is fine and that they could probably make outstanding members. Many schools' greek systems aren't as competitive as Alabama's, and a junior may have no trouble getting a bid at a different school. I would not encourage a junior to go through rush at UA unless she has nerves of steel and doesn't mind being cut very heavily. I would tell her that she should find out which houses COB and focus her concentration on those houses.

The second strike against M.T. is that she was rude. She basically told my sister which house she wanted to belong to. While my sister was talking to her, she looked at the floor. She was extremely uninterested in our house. That would have gotten any other rushee cut as well. In fact, we did cut other women who were disinterested. We can only invite back so many people and if we invite back a woman who has blatantly indicated that she wants to join another house, that closes the spot for someone else who might be really interested in joining us. Melody also made some other rude comments, which I will not get into here. I'm not sure that I can disclose *specifics* about rush conversation.
I would also like to add here that most of the women in our house had met Melody prior to her going through NPC recruitment. She does not give the impression of being a nice person. This, also, would have caused anyone to be cut.
The bad reputation is the third strike. It also ties in with the other women having already met Melody through classes, etc. But not only did they have a bad impression of her, the entire NPC/IFC system had a bad impression of her. Why? Because she went to the press the summer before going through recruitment and called us all racists. All of those stories that got picked up by the AP wire... just imagine if someone went to the press, gave an interview, and said that everyone in your house was a jerk or a bitch or (insert your own insult here), and made you all look bad on a national level. It's very insulting and it doesn't make you want to like that person. Also, it was widely rumored that a particularly anti-greek professor had put Melody up to rushing to prove a point. I don't know if that is true, but when he was asked about this, he would not deny the rumor.

Many hundreds of women go through rush at UA every fall and some of those women don't get bids. Some don't get bids because of their appearance. Some don't get bids because of their age. Some of them don't get bids because they have a bad reputation. Some don't get bids because they come into the houses and announce that they can't afford the dues and they are only going through rush to meet people. Some don't get bids because they fall through the cracks during bid matching. There are a lot of reasons that people get dropped, and the vast majority of them aren't fair. Many of these women can pursue COB or spring rush and will eventually get into a house. Some of them won't.

And yes, I'm sure that there are girls in our house who have not-so-nice reputations. Every house seems to have a few... the difference here is that they didn't have these bad reps going into rush. If they have done something to gain a bad rep on campus after being initiated, they are pulled up to a standards committee and can have their membership terminated.

I also want to clarify that the situation with the IFC fraternity men wearing shirts from an NPHC fraternity took place at Auburn U, not UA. Big difference there, as any football fan can tell you. :)
And, again to clarify, I was TOLD that men from the NPHC fraternity had given their shirts to the IFC men. I don't know if that is true, but it is what I was told by people who were there. I am not condoning what they did, I was just reporting what I was told. Furthermore, to the person who said that NPHC members don't give their letters away, you should walk through a thrift store here.... you can get block letters, T-shirts, embroidered polos, etc. with just about any letters you like. I'm not saying that you should buy them or wear them if you aren't a member, but it does happen. I saw a homeless guy wearing a Theta bid day shirt a couple of years ago.

To everyone: I am very interested to hear your throughts on exactly how the University of Alabama can integrate its greek system. If black students aren't interested in going through rush, how do we give them a bid? How do we make black women go through NPC recruitment? How is it wrong that we didn't pledge Melody when we cut her for the same reasons we cut dozens of white women? I agree that it's sad that the University can count its minority members of NPC/IFC groups, but until there are black students attempting to gain entry, I don't see how we can force them to join! If you can explain these things to me and formulate a reasonable solution to the problem, I'd be happy to take your suggestions to the greek life office at UA. I'm sure they'd be glad to hear that forced integration among social groups is that easy. Heck, they'd probably put you on the payroll. :)

To Bama_Alumna
 

I think that the way to get more of a diverse greek system, the IFC and PHC at University of Alabama should look at how other schools who have a diverse greek system do recuitment. But do the sororities and fraternities at your former school really want a diverse greek atmosphere or are they happy the way things are right now.

I don't know if Christina Houston (one of the biracial women apart of the greek system at UA) is trying to get more minorities to come out to Rush, but after hearing that her sister use the *n* word, I know I wouldn't be rushing to be apart of that system. Who knows what other racial slurs people use there.... I think before people start to try to get minorities to join (they would only be doing that just to say they have a diverse system)the people in the IFC and PHC at UA should go through extensive diversity training.

Nothing in the UA Greek system will change unless the racial environment on that campus changes. I DOUBT that somehow all the really racist people just happened to end up in frats, and the rest of the campus is totally normal and integrated. Chances are that the social life in that campus is completely segregated, and that is just reflected in the greek system. The UA Greeks can't MAKE black people pledge if they don't want to, and I somehow doubt that many of them at this school want to, simply because of the environment on this campus.

That doesn't mean that the UA Greeks are entirely free from fault. The fact that no black girl (not biracial, but BLACK) has EVER been accepted is HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY suspect, and I really have a problem believing it is solely due to a lack of interest here. Race is playing a factor, whether some of you would like to believe that or not.

This whole argument over how racist Alabama is or isn't is kinda pointless. Everyone's experience is different, and none of you can be totally right or wrong because anecdotal experience means squat if you don't have figures to back it up.

Neicy81, you should really take a look at the way you post. Your style is really condescending and offensive to everyone you reply to. And I have yet to ever see you back up claims with empirical data. Anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean much in a good argument.

Tom Earp- can you believe I actually kinda agree with you? I have had to break down folks in the past too sometimes, and I HONESTLY can't say that I thought you were wrong in this case. Almost every time that Neicy has ever responded to a white poster it has been with rudeness and condescension. It's highly unnecessary, and I can see why you lost your temper. If some of the black posters on here were being honest they'd probably say they agreed with you too, but party lines and all....


Rudey- LOL. LMAO. You crazy.

Neicy,I ,thank you for the comopliment!
Maybe your are getting the idea.

Make your point and not attack!

You do have many great points that are brought up and rightly so!

You Are a member of GreekChat and remember that as you have your opininon!

Thank You for yor post! I thjink You will be a good member after all!:)

Breaking down a remark doesn't make it any less condescending or rude then when you were originally posting it. I am sure that sarcasm is just your way of expressing yourself, and that's fine but what I am letting YOU know is that it is EXTREMELY offputting. People don't like beings poken down to, and it leads to personal fights, not good conversations.

If you want people to actually discuss the topic of conversations instead of your nasty attitude then you might just want to try and LISTEN to what people are telling you instead of just brushing it off. It's not about a style of debate here, it's about simple RESPECT for others. Sarcasm is all well and good, but if you think it's respectful, or that people should just let it go in conversations, then you must not be too good with the people skills.

Do things your way if you please but don't be surprised or act all defensive about the responses you get. You only get the kind of reactions you ask for with your snotty posts.

[trying to cipher post]

To answer the last question first:

"Nasty attitude" may just equal "turning constructive criticism into another 'why I am correct' diatribe" if nothing else. Ponder that.

Else - I have no clue where you got:

-your posts rep everyone on GC
-"empirical data" is lovelyivy's thing - nope, that's a LIFE THING, and key to forensics.
-that just not calling people out equals respecting them

Step outside your brain for a bit, ace, and realize that there's an off chance that you're not absolutely correct about everything you say. It's a tough lesson, one I had to learn the hard way, and one that separates an intelligent person from a brilliant person.

The trouble is neicy... I don't know if it's necessarily your fault -- but whenever you enter into these discussions the entire thread subject shifts to your confrontational style and away from the subject...

How can this help your argument?

This will be my last mention today about confrontational style... But realize that people form impressions of you quickly. These impressions will effect the way that you are perceived from that point on. On something like the internet where typing is the only way to communicate you have to be careful not just of what is said but how it is said.

If something is said in a way that is aggressive, condescending, etc.. It typically works against you and obscures whatever point you had.

I'm not just talking about neicy. I'm talking about neicy and lots of other folks on here. Remember that by getting aggressive you just shift other people into defensive mode and you end up with a stalemate.

OK neicy, as an example I have picked out a post you made earlier in the thread.

IvySpice said:

I can't speak for Neicy, but my ears did perk up, and I think that's a problem. Sure, we've all heard terrible things about race relations in the Deep South, but to whatever extent I can, I'm trying to base my opinions on personal knowledge and not on reputation. It's too easy to just say, "Well, it's Alabama, so of course everybody there is racist," especially since there are plenty of covert racists in the North. Other people know more about Alabama than I do, and I want to hear as much first-hand knowledge as I can before drawing any conclusions.

Now I do not necessarily agree with this post. You CAN'T rely on personal experience alone because too many people don't share it. You have to look for data that points to how widespread a problem this is, and how many people it is affecting in a REAL way. Personal stories don't do that.

But you responded to her by saying:

You can base it on personal experience or knowledge if you want but the history as well as what's going on NOW can't be erased or denied.Do you watch that news?Regardless if you're in Alabama or not, you should not be so naive or surprised to know that this wouldn't happen in Alabama.Come on wake up and smell the coffee!

Comments like "Do you watch the news" just belittle the intelligence of the person you're talking to. Telling her to "wake up and smell the coffee" simply because she had reservations about your sweeping indictment of Alabama was just as condescending. THAT is disrespect in my eyes.

Why not just point out to her the long history of racial struggle in the state and cite examples? Why not tell her what is really going on instead of telling her to "wake up?" THAT is how you reach people.

This is just one example- I am not going to go through all your posts, as there are really far too many of these kinds of comments for me to go into it in depth, but I did want to show you what I meant. It would be one thing if you told her of your personal experience, and maybe pointed to history citing distinct events but telling her to watch the news and wake up and smell the coffee just doesn't cut it in ANY argument. You can't argue on some sort of assumed knowledge, you have to point to exactly what you mean or your argument just seems specious.

Aggressive and disrespectful ARE two different things, but you are going towards disrespectful far too often for many posters. Can you see that?

OK... being from a very diverse State and an integrated greek system, I must say that I think it is sad that the sororities haven't had the chance to expand their sisterhoods to include diversity because I believe that is one great thing about being in a sorority is it provides you the chance to meet people you may not have met under any other circumstances. I have friends of all different ages, religions, majors, etc... and I know I'm a better, more rounded person for it. I believe every sorority and fraternity should give that opportunity to their members.
There is no one reason for this lack of integration. Instead of fight about it, which is going to make NOTHING change, why don't we all, no matter if you're from Alabama or Oregon do whatever we can to make sure that we are inclusive ?

Furthermore for those that are saying they haven't been to Alabama, so what???What about the Halloween episode at Auburn that made a mockery of a prestigious black fraternity?Who hasn't heard what life is like in Alabama?


Okay.... here are my two cents:


I am a native of Alabama and a member of the group of women dedicated to bringing a multi-cultural sorority to the University of Alabama.

I know there are A LOT of stereotypes about southern life, especially life in Alabama. It is unfortunate that the ignorant actions of few reflect poorly and seem to suggest the views of all. I am not saying the south is an Utopia of racial harmony. What I am saying is that racial inclusiveness is a reality and happens everyday in the south... in Alabama.... on the campus of the UA.
You CAN NOT base the actions of a small group of people and label everyone racist. It is unfair. It is untrue.

On a separate note, the women in this sorority know we face some barriers. There are people on our campus who doubt us. There are some of you here at this site that doubt us. That's okay. We're cool with that. We just can't wait to prove EVERYONE wrong. To those who have sent us well-wishes and support, we thank you! It means a lot to us!

Let me clarify one thing: we are not trying to eradicate racism on our campus. We saw a need that was unmet. We met so many women who felt discouraged concerning joining a sorority based on their class standing, race, religion, etc.

This group was started to let every woman on campus know that there is a place for them in the greek system here at the Capstone. It shouldn't matter if you aren't blonde, blue-eyed or if your parents don't hold country club memberships. It shouldn't matter if you're a transfer student or a junior. We wanted to break down that unseen barrier.

We have and never will say that the women who choose to join NPC sororities are racist. Just as the incident at Auburn illustrates, there are "bad apples" in every bunch. :) I know several women who are in NPC sororities and I know them to be kind, intelligent, warm and decent individuals. I know that in the face of tradition, it is hard to go against the grain.

There is a refrain from a very famous song. It speaks of change. It states that change is a long time coming. This is true about integration of the greek community here at the Capstone. Steps are being taken. One day it will become a reality.

I don't try to speak for anybody but myself. What I was trying to show you is WHY you might be getting the reactions that you are from so many people who have an issue with you.

What do you keep hearing people say here: You have good points but the way you express yourself makes it hard for people to even acknowledge them because you are extremely abrasive. I am giving you the heads up on my POV because it's mine, I can, and I felt like it. You don't like it, don't read it, don't respond. This is probably the last message I write to you anyway, because frankly it's just like hitting my head against a brick wall- you refuse to even consider the points and feelings of others.

Clearly you are too defensive to even consider the possibility that you are ever wrong, and will just continue to dismiss anything that I or others will say. That's fine, no skin off my back. Just don't expect the reactions you get to change either.

That's what I get for trying to help the young and callow, lol.

Thank you for reminding me why I haven't been here in months.

Heaven Help Us!!
 

GOOD GRIEF...!!!!!

CAN WE ALL JUST ACKNOWLEDGE AND/OR ACCEPT THAT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT DEBATING/DISCUSSION STYLES AND LEAVE IT AT THAT? :confused:

A DIFFERENT STYLE DOES NOT MAKE YOU RACIST/CONFUSED/ETC...IT JUST MAKE YOU DIFFERENT!!!

WHY HAS THIS THREAD TURNED INTO A "SAVE NEICY81" INFOMERCIAL? :mad:


Moving on.........

TempleOne,

Thanks for coming in here and letting us know the deal behind the new MC sorority that is coming to UA. i wish y'all nothing but the best. If you wouldn't mind indulging me, I do have a few questions :D

Do you yourself feel that with Ms. Twiley's name being largely associated with your sorority is giving you guys a "reputation" already?

Also, why did you guys specifically choose a MCGLO as opposed to an NPHC or LGLO ?

Geez even I know that if you do not water a plant, it will not grow!

It seems that No Matter what anyone says, it will not deter a single minded person!

Dont Post and Thread will die!

Thank you for you time!

I thought we were here to help each other not rip us apart!:confused:

Racism is everywhere... most (like the Auburn incident) is hidden
 

"Furthermore for those that are saying they haven't been to Alabama, so what???What about the Halloween episode at Auburn that made a mockery of a prestigious black fraternity?Who hasn't heard what life is like in Alabama? "

To whoever made this comment... there was also blackface incidents at: Ole Miss, U of Louisville and Dartmoth(sp? Ivy League School) in the same month as the Auburn incident.

Racism goes on in some form in most places in the US.

sincerely..

born, raised, college educated in Birmingham Alabama Black Man..

Swamp Thang..

Re: Heaven Help Us!!