Well, just for me, This is getting a little out of hand.

I talked to a Gay Brother From Alfred U who is working his butt of to keep his Chapter throught no damn reason of the chapters! I called him LD! I also worked through Channels to help him!

Brother Hren, Who I am sure you know has become a very good freind and Brother, that I have never met, but talk with constantly and will be going to Their 30 Founders Day Reunion!

Yes there are People on any site who Bash Gays, but when you come onto a site and bash people who are asking or stating simple things for clarifications, do not under any circumstances get you necks out of joint!

As You yourselve realize, most people do not understand what makes you feel the way you do. I only know Brother Hren is a Brother and I will do what I can for him beacuse so! Not because his is Gay or I feel sorry for him!

It Breaks down, if your an asswhole/bitch then so be it!

That is to say some person who haw to show themselves to others to prove themselvse right!

Do not hold your flame to high or the wind will blow it out!

Hell no, I care for him as a Brother and a Friend! Get It?

Do not get offensive on this site please.

We have come to know each other very well and while we all have certain ideas, we still respect each other!:cool:

Please look at other threads and we wlould appreciate any input form and Greek Org, Brother/Sister!:D:eek:

please read for explanation
 

apologies to KD or DW for the personal umbrage taken.

I don't apologize for repeating words posted here when, on their face they run contradictory to the message which is allegedly trying to be forwarded. However nasty my words were received, understand that I was not the poster who proceeded from the judgement of "Stupid". Insofar as that is concerned, it was personal when I got here. Plus, many of the posts, no matter how much everybody "respects everybody else", this whole issue is a judgement debate over WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING. It is inherently invasive into lives not directly connected to your own.

That said, and without admitting to any particular motives for my posts, may I suggest that the following two things be considered, perhaps as lessons to be learned:

1. KD correctly pointed out that I don't know her from Eve, except for what she has said here, and therefore I am not qualified to make a personal judgement about her. This is true. It is also true for those folks who set up the Lambda 10 site and those folks who post their name and information there....it's not 'stupid' (those were someone else's words, but you get the picture). MORE IMPORTANTLY was the fact that I came out of nowhere and started attacking people I didn't know based on a something I saw that I didn't like.....does this sequence of events sound a little familiar to those on this board who have lived with a gay or lesbian? Like, perhaps, the sometimes endless character attacks and innuendos they suffer? For consideration, I also offer the comment leveled at me which implies that, as a newbie to the group, I ought not pass a judgement until I've been around a while and walked in the group's shoes, so to speak. The same should be said of gay and lesbian greeks everywhere when you have the urge to question their coming out, showing pride, or doing something you think is over the top (such as a girlfriend date to formal): perhaps one should consider walking in their shoes a while before forming an opinion.

2. Although no one has explicitly posted anything about disliking gays/lesbians, read through it all again with as clear a mindset as you can and see if you don't finish with a sense that there is something unsaid in some of those posts which feels an awful lot like bigotry. I don't suggest that this is even intentional, but the purpose of getting an education is to open your mind, and opening your mind requires introspection, so go ahead and give it another thorough read and see if you mihgt not agree; finally

3. KD, I'm sure you're going to be in the top of your class. Admittedly, it didn't take much to provoke you which was a cheap shot on my part. My point required someone to fight back through a solidarity manuever, which you did aptly. Good luck with law school.




"If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended; that you have but slumber'd here, while these visions did appear; and this weak and idle theme, no more yielding than a dream. Gentles, do not reprehend; if you pardon, we will mend..."

please read for explanation
 

apologies to KD or DW for the personal umbrage taken.

I don't apologize for repeating words posted here when, on their face they run contradictory to the message which is allegedly trying to be forwarded. However nasty my words were received, understand that I was not the poster who proceeded from the judgement of "Stupid". Insofar as that is concerned, it was personal when I got here. Plus, many of the posts, no matter how much everybody "respects everybody else", this whole issue is a judgement debate over WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING. It is inherently invasive into lives not directly connected to your own.

That said, and without admitting to any particular motives for my posts, may I suggest that the following two things be considered, perhaps as lessons to be learned:

1. KD correctly pointed out that I don't know her from Eve, except for what she has said here, and therefore I am not qualified to make a personal judgement about her. This is true. It is also true for those folks who set up the Lambda 10 site and those folks who post their name and information there....it's not 'stupid' (those were someone else's words, but you get the picture). MORE IMPORTANTLY was the fact that I came out of nowhere and started attacking people I didn't know based on a something I saw that I didn't like.....does this sequence of events sound a little familiar to those on this board who have lived with a gay or lesbian? Like, perhaps, the sometimes endless character attacks and innuendos they suffer? For consideration, I also offer the comment leveled at me which implies that, as a newbie to the group, I ought not pass a judgement until I've been around a while and walked in the group's shoes, so to speak. The same should be said of gay and lesbian greeks everywhere when you have the urge to question their coming out, showing pride, or doing something you think is over the top (such as a girlfriend date to formal): perhaps one should consider walking in their shoes a while before forming an opinion.

2. Although no one has explicitly posted anything about disliking gays/lesbians, read through it all again with as clear a mindset as you can and see if you don't finish with a sense that there is something unsaid in some of those posts which feels an awful lot like bigotry. I don't suggest that this is even intentional, but the purpose of getting an education is to open your mind, and opening your mind requires introspection, so go ahead and give it another thorough read and see if you mihgt not agree; finally

3. KD, I'm sure you're going to be in the top of your class. Admittedly, it didn't take much to provoke you which was a cheap shot on my part. My point required someone to fight back through a solidarity manuever, which you did aptly. Good luck with law school.




"If we shadows have offended, think but this and all is mended; that you have but slumber'd here, while these visions did appear; and this weak and idle theme, no more yielding than a dream. Gentles, do not reprehend; if you pardon, we will mend..."

do i have to register to see this list?

cause i can't figure out how to do it without filling out that form, which i certainly am not doing

Cash, sorry sweety but not sure what your are taliking about! If you are a member of GC, you are a member!

What this discussion is about is the site that was posted about the Greek Gay Site!

I am becoming very upset about what this 1-2 person is putting on GC Site!

If you want to try to be Condosinding , Dont! It unbecomes you and what you are trying to stand for, and I and many others on this site are becoming weary of it!

It seems that your self importance with your situation is becoming underwhealming!

Now let us talk like adults! Get off your damn horse of Gayism and Be a Greek!

You have seen and read many answeres to you posts!

I will let One of My Brothers, who is Gay, Know what is on this site! He is one bad SOB!

So be nice and work with us or you have not any site to voice with other than yours!

You both make the decision, and We Will All Make the Decision!

Ball In your Court! What say You!?

:rolleyes:

wow, for once I understand one of Tom Earp's posts and I agree wholeheartedly!!!! And even more important, I could actually understand it!!!! :O)

Phins2left, thank you for your apology.

They went dormant in the early 90s........

They listed our former National President...........as much as most of our association doesn't like the guy I'm pretty sure someone did a fake listing.

Thank you for like clarifying that.

You beat me to it, but I also agree with Tom.

Phins2left, I would also like to thank you for your apology. I would also like to apologize if I inadvertently said anything that offended you. It was definitely not my intention, and I'm guessing that no one else intended to, either.

Personally, I can see both sides. While no actual anti-gay declarations have been made, and everybody makes statements that claim to support them, the tone of most of the posts certainly isn't welcoming to gay Greeks, and occassionally runs the risk of being downright hostile. I think the webpage is a great thing if it helps to unite homosexual members of GLOs -- face it, it can't be an easy thing to be in the closet and in a GLO, and it might not be much easy to be OUT of the closet and in a GLO. At the same time, though, if the majority of the listings on the site are fake (and enough of the names have been called into question that it seems likely that at least some must be fake), the site isn't helping anyone much.

However, if you're not gay and Greek, or at least interested in lending support to those who are, it seems like the webpage shouldn't really be any of your business. If you're concerned about the possibility of faked names, email the webmaster of the site and explain why you think the name's not real. Hopefully he/she will remove the imposter's name -- and that'll solve a lot more than simply complaining about them in this forum will.

As I recall, the original question was "Why would anyone list himself/herself on the Lambda 10 site?

I'm the guy Tom Earp was mentioning, and I'll try to answer that question from my own perspective.

I was too afraid to come out while in college, but I did as an alumnus and nothing bad happened. Nothing at all. In fact I'm now the President of our Alumni Association. All of us take turns bitching each other out but that has nothing to do with being gay or straight; that has to do with brotherhood!

I listed my name on the Lambda 10 site because I was not afraid anymore. Then I got an email from a kid I didn't even know. He was the VP of his chapter and asked me for some advice about coming out to the guys.

I'm sure I wasn't much help but he contacted some others too, and kept me informed about his progress. One evening at a chapter meeting he made his move and announced to his brothers that he was gay. In his own woeds, he was "shaking like a leaf", but he did it and asked if there were any questions.

First there was total silence. One brother began to clap and the others did too, then they all stood up and gave him a standing ovation. After the meeting, they took him out for dinner.

That's a cool story and I'm very happy for him. I wouldn't have known about it if not for Lambda 10. He contacted me from that site and I think it serves a very useful purpose and I thank Shane for creating and maintaining it.

I first learned about it from browsing my local bookstore and picking up a copy of Out On Fraternity Row, which Shane wrote. It's a very interesting book. It might be hard to find a copy of it now though. Pick one up if you can find it.

And that's why I'm listed there.

Jono
Lambda Chi Alpha

General Comments
 

Hello, everyone!

First of all, let me apoligize before if I do offend anyone who has posted, or will post to this thread. That is not my desire, nor intention. I just wanted to also add my perspective, which I hope will be taken just as that...a perspective/viewpoint of my experience.

I have actually went through and read the entire thread concerning this topic, and I have been both offended (and that's okay) and content with some of the comments that memebers have made.

I have noticed that generally everyone does indeed state that they would/do fully suport their gay brothers or sisters, and I think that is fantastic! I encourage you to continue to do so, and hope that you will also encourage your fellow members, alumni, family, and community to do the same.

Secondly, I am also listed on the Lambda 10 web site under my organization and campus. I did this for several reasons:

1) I owed it to myself (being gay and greek are both two very important aspects of who I am), so having a place (even if it is just on a web site listing) was very important to me.

2) I did it for my future brothers in my organization, and others in other groups, or even those individuals who go to the same University I did. I didn't want them to feel alone (like I often did)...I wanted them to know it was allright to say, "Yes, I'm gay......and you know what? I'm in a fraternity too." And I can be both, and I can be accepted, appreciated, and I should be accepted. I deserve that. They deserve that. You deserve that.

As for the validity of names (I'm not going to argue who is right or who is wrong, or what should be done) But, my organization is no longer on my undergraduate campus....so guess what folks...if you were to go looking for it...you wouldn't find it. But, I can guarantee you that I was on that campus, and I was in that chapter....in fact...I was one of the founders of that chapter. So it is by no means beyond the realms of possiblity that an organization that was previously there is no longer listed, or present on the school's or the organization's web site.

I dont' know if there is necessarily a fool/joke/tampor proof method to listing the names. And I'm sure if anyone has the time, expertiese, or willingness to help Shane or Lambda 10 verify those names or brainstorm ideas, he would be more than willing to listen and take those into consideration.

BUT, at the same time...what methods are there to prove that any of you belong to the organizations that you do? I was directed to this post through another listserve so, I haven't had the opportunity to check it all out yet. But, by browsing I have noticed that alomst everyone has their organization either in their ID or in their signature. My question is (and it's not to start an arguement). What methods did this site go through to verify your membership? Your campus? That you remained an active member and didn't drop out, get kicked out, or even graduated from your institiuion? I know when I signed up (like I said I'm new). They didn't ask any of that information or take any efforts or measures to secure any of that information. So, I guess what I'm getting to is.......Why is it so important for lambda 10 to verify that information (and for you to have to have that verification) when there is no one doing the same here? I don't see hundreds (an exageration) of posts questioning the validity of any of the groups/organizations/campuses that people claim to belong to on here....where is that? So, I guess in some respects I can see why some people might think that some homophobic comments/ideas/concerns have been made on this list. I by no means have any proof or reason to think that anyone is a homophobe....I'm just making a general statement about the posts as a whole body.

A final few comments and I'm done with this posting (I promise...thanks for being patient).

As far as gays in your organizations, or your neighbors, or your sisters. I cannot absolutely guarantee you that their is a current member who identifies as a lesbian, gay, or bisexual person...do I think at sometime someone you know from that group will come to that realization? Yes, but that's my opinion from my own personal view points and experience. Are there gays in every fraternity and sorority (nationally). I can say from my experience (I'm a fraternity and sorority advisor) that there are most definately lesbian, gay, bisexual members in almost (if not every organization, fraternity, sorority, team, club, etc.) I have met a lot of our gay brothers and sisters...they are there....you just may not see them.

One final thing, as far as calling Inter/national fraternities and sororities to verify membership. I do not know if that is necessarily the best way to verify that info. For one thing, Usually organizations are very guarded with that information....they don't want to offend/turn-off/allienate any of their members by giving out their personal information....I also don't think that it would necessarily be a good business practice for them. (Yes, I said business.......they are indeed businesses, with values, purpose, goals, and customers)

Secondly, I know from reading both copies of the books from Lambda 10 (Out on Fraternity Row & Secret Sisters) and from my own conversations with other advisors and headquarters staff (and gays work there too!) that some (not all) but some organizations have encouraged their members not to participate in the books or series for whatever reason, so I don't necessarily believe that they would be all that cooperative.

Okay....I think that's about it....sorry it was so long. I just had a lot to say, I guess. I hope that it has made some of you think, some of you happy, and yes even some of you mad. There's nothing wrong with being mad or offended or angry...it's what you do with that, how you approach people, and how you treat people that matter.

I also encourage you to check out the Lambda 10 site fully. I know that many of the postings have talked about studies and surveys about homosexuality. I know that there is a survey on the site (by Doug Case) that is a survey that deals specifically with this issue. If it is no longer there, I'm sure Shane would be willing to email it to you, if he still has it. (Sorry Shane, don't mean to volunteer you as the premiere spokesperson!) Also, in the September issue of OUT there is an article about gay and bisexual fraternity members.

Good nite to you all, and if you have any questions please feel free to email, or post on the list...I will try to check sometime soon.


O.P.I.E.
*********
"Behold, how good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in UNITY!"

Opie25, is this the same Doug Case that is the head of IFC at San Diego State University? I was just wondering........

DeltaSigStan:

Yes, Doug is one of the Fraternity & Sorority Advisors at SDSU.

-o.p.i.e.

Article
 

Here is the link that should get you to that article I mentioned. If you have time check it out.

http://www.lambda10.org/research_study.htm

Thanks!
 

JonoBN41 and Opie25 --

Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful posts. I appreciate them very much, and I'm sure others here do as well. Lots of good food for thought and inspiration, too.

Here's why I think Lambda should spend more time verifying members than Greekchat does -

But first, yes, you are absolutely right, there is no reason on here to believe anyone is who they say they are. That's one reason secrets and chapter business should be kept off this board.

But - do you know my name? Do you know who I am? No. If you were to read all my posts, you could figure out what chapter and group I claim to belong to, where I went to school, when I graduated, and where I live now. There are maybe one or two gals on here with connections to FHQ who know my first name, and with that information could *perhaps* find out if I'm a poser or not. Most people on here, except maybe Tom Earp, are similarly "hidden."

The point is, if I'm posing, and not a real Greek, I'm not using someone else's name to do it. I'm not claiming to be Beth Petrowski, Mu Mu chapter of Nu Nu, class of '92 at Nebraska State, where in reality my name is Duaine and I never went to college and have never been east of Idaho. I may not be a sister but I am not appropriately someone else's identity.

However, the Lambda site does allow for that. I could pretend to be that one snotty girl in Pi Pi I couldn't stand, put in her name and chapter with my contact info, and SHE would be listed. Whether she is gay or not, that's not fair to her. Listing should be HER decision.

Also, at least one person on here said not just that the chapter at that school didn't currently exist, but that it never existed. Many of the folks on here are pretty dedicated to their sorority and just because that info isn't on their national website doesn't mean they don't know it. I can go home, look in my 100-year AXD history, and see all the chapters ever chartered up until a few years ago (and the newer ones I can remember).

My point is that revealing ANY facts about a person, especially something that is still considered sensitive (whether fairly or not) should require some serious proof or fact-checking, and I don't believe the Lambda site is living up to that. You're right, maybe a national won't confirm if X is a member - but I don't know of any national sorority that wouldn't share a list of former and current chapters, and Lambda isn't even bothering to make sure the person's existance is a possibility, let alone a likelihood or a certainty.

Fantastic point, FuzzieAlum! :)

Anyway, I'm keeping my mouth shut (or my keyboard, rather) about this thread from now on... ;)

FuzzieAlum:

I understand your point, and I am glad that you are concerned about people being misrepresented. I certainly would never want to be misrepresented either.

At the same time, however, if someone was able to go ahead and get the chapter listings from every national organization and go through and try to verify that information. Which they could do by doing an extinsive web search, contacting a HQ's, or through a Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities (But it hasn't been updated for several years...so the listing wouldn't be 100% accurate). Would that still resolve the issue and make people feel better about the site?

That process is still not going to "fix" what some see as a problem of verifying membership for that individual to that chapter. It would still be possible for someone to misrepresent themself just the same....the only thing that could be verified using your example (if I'm reading your post correctly) about it would be that there indeed was a chapter of that organization on that particular campus.

I thought the concern was people misrepresenting themself as members of our organizations, and not neccesarily finding the proof that a certain chapter was at that campus. In which case, going about and verifying chapter listings only provides a half proof. Correct?

Does that make sense to anyone? If I'm not clear please excuse me.....I overslept this morning, and am a little behind, and still find myself replying here! Go figure!

Thanks for listening.

o.p.i.e.

I agree with verifying who's who. I know the Alpha Gam on the site is not a member nor is the school she listed where we've ever had a chapter.

Opie, you're right, and what I was suggesting was just a half meaure. It certainly couldn't prove someone was entirely what they claimed they were.

That's why I have mixed feeling about the site. I'm glad there's a supportive place for gay Greeks to go if they need it. But in using the "real" details, it runs the risk of being incorrect. Part of me thinks it would be better by avoiding those details, like GC does, but that would have the deleterious effect of suggesting that gay Greeks need to hide their identity.

I'd like to think that this wasn't a problem in my chapter (I mean, we had one sister who was GLBA president when we gave her a bid), but I know there were others on my campus who struggled. My boyfriend's roommate depledged his fraternity and subsequently came out. He never did initiate. Knowing many of his brothers, I'd like to think they would have been supportive, but that doesn't mean I'm right, and it would have been nice for him to have somewhere to go. I'm sure coming out for him was an issue with lots of people other than his brothers, but if he had known they would be there for him it could have made the rest of it easier.

Perhaps it's possible to leave the site as is, but if a complaint about its accuracy is received, to ardently try to investigate it at that point. If there was no Alpha Gam chapter at that particular school, there is the extremely slim possibility she is an alum initiate, but it ought to be looked into. But having inaccurate info posted opens the door for a lawsuit, since we live in a sue-happy country.

Question, maybe Lambda 10 site is just trying to get members!

Hell yes I know Jono is a Fag, Queer, or what ever you may want to call it! He is also short, and 1/2 that is a joke between us on age!

Yes I am Straight, but seem to talk to him many times a week and have the pleasure of going to His Chapters 30 Ann!

One of the Brothers from another Chapter that has been on this Site is Gay! Yes I have been in contact with him! I and others have been working to keep the Chapter there!

What the heck, We are BRO/SIS of the same Organization!

Are you A Jew, Black, Asian or what ever and not be a member of your Group!? Da Dont think so!

Do I only have white freinds? Ask around this Site and you will get you answer!

If you are so rabid about people different, then look into your inner self!

:) :o :(

I'm sorry....I don't think I follow your last post Tom. Is that for me, or just a general comment to the thread?