Y'know... the discussion of Kappa Sigma's requirement that all members believe in a higher being, has me wondering if any other GLOs share that requirement, and if they would expel full members if it came to light after initiation. I know the Masons have that requirement, and I'm guessing that's where Kappa Sig got it, but are there any others?

I'm particularly interested to know if any NPC sororities have that requirement, since NPC rules stipulate that if you depledge, you can't pledge another NPC sorority for a year, and if you were initiated, you can never be initiated into another NPC sorority. (AEPhi has no such requirement.)

We had a great ritual workshop this year with an International Officer that really delved into this topic. As our ADPi chapters are home to women with varying backgrounds, we realize that although the sorority is founded upon Christian ideals, the biblical references are merely historic references of the sentiments at the time your GLO was founded. As a sister of Jewish descent, I appreciate my GLO educating me of this consideration. I view these ideals more as human ideals, and I am not offended or left out.

Pi Beta Phi had a series of similar-sounding values workshops for all our collegiate chapters this year. The emphasis was that while some values are Pi Phi-wide (sisterhood, loyalty, etc, etc, etc) that others such as religious faith are individual and should not be called into question by Pi Phi. I thought it was really helpful and meaningful to see the position of Pi Phi on these issues and it made me proud to be a sister. :D

Pi Phi Friend-- I think its great that our GLOs and so many others are recognizing our diversity, and retaining the meaning of everything, while still keeping PC with member education! Just another reason its great to be Greek! :)

Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia does not have such a requirement.

There are quite a few fraternities with this requirement. It's in the pledge manual. It's in the ritual. It's in the oath. For these groups, a man who does not believe in god is not to be initiated. But of these groups, most offer some additional guidance for what to do when a prospective member balks at this during the initiation - and the general consensus is that it's OK as long as the guy professes a belief in some kind of higher authority.

Also, none of these groups have any provision for what to do once someone IS rightfully initiated. There are only 2 grounds for expulsion in most GLOs – failure to meet financial obligations and conduct unbecoming an XYZ.

To my knowledge, no fraternity has ever sought expulsion of a member who lied about beliefs or who later changed his mind. Personally, I would support expulsion for someone who lies - not because I really care so much about his beliefs, but because a man who is willing to lie about his values in order to gain some benefit is a man I don't want in my organization. Lying is “conduct unbecoming an XYZ”.

As for someone who sincerely professes a belief in god and then later changes his mind, I personally do not support expulsion , though I can see why many would disagree. But in my opinion, beliefs are not “conduct” and therefore not a valid basis for judgment whether they are becoming or unbecoming of an XYZ. For example, is it possible to not believe in god, but to still conduct yourself as a Christian? I say yes, basing this purely on following the very simple teachings of Christ (whether you think he’s the son of god or just a historical figure). Christ’s teachings were extremely simple – it’s people like Hatchett that attach all the other gobbledygook to it.

Remember too that the people taking these oaths are usually teenagers. I think it's unrealistic to expect a person's opinions and beliefs to be the same a decade later.

wptw

WPTW,, good to see ya on the Boards agin!!!:)

I think this maybe getting a Little to Hattachitized!

"GOD IS UP THERE, devil is down there"!

I remember something from a Loooong time ago the Hell is on earth, and heaven is being not on earth!

So I guess I am in Hell, but at least I am in good company!!!!!:D

Damn, this thread is starting to remind me of the left over enchiladas and refried beans I had last night!;)

Oh well what the Hell-o, I am just watching Diagnosis Murder too!

Cannot stand to do one thing at a time!:D

I think that it makes sense that some fraternities have this requirement, as quite a few of them have some ties to Masonry... and I know Rainbow Girls have the same requirement.. (belief in some sort of supreme being) Phi Sig doesn't have such a requirement...
I'm pretty sure.. (and I've been around Masonic orgs. A LOT) that all of the Masonic orgs. require such a requirement and that is why some of the fraternities share that requirement....

Jews for Jesus is a Christian group. In fact their sponsors are none other than southern baptists who find that their goal in life is to convert others.

-Rudey

Jews for Jesus is a group of Christians who feel that since Jesus was a Jew, all Jews should convert to Christianity. It has nothing to do with Jews believing in Jesus. While most Jews do not deny that Jesus existed, we don't believe that he was the son of G-D or the Messiah.

My last post
 

I didn't know Jews for Jesus is a Christian group. My whole point was that people can believe Jesus existed, and respect his message of love, without believing he was the son of God. Therefore, a non-Christian wishing to join a GLO's based on Christian principles would probably still feel comfortable in their initiation if the initiation contained that kind of a Christian message. I was trying to help the PNM feel more comfortable about that. That's all :)

That being said, there are sororities that have had non-Christian founders, or were non-sectarian from the beginnings. But unless a sorority defines itself as a "Christian Sorority" and that usually very easy to find out, then I wouldn't worry too much about initiation conflicting with your beliefs. Good Luck!

Question, for anyone...I am sure that many initiations require the new member to kneel before taking vows. If you are not permitted to dicuss this, them please do not divulge private info. But my friend who is Jewish told me that to kneel before another is against her beliefs. So her sorority let her kind of "squat' instead. I didn't get a chance to ask her more about it-the kneeling part-not the ritual! Anyone know what this is about? Just curious.

edited for spelling & my power went out in the middle of typing this!

RE: Jews for Jesus
 

For some information and a chance to make an informed decision about this group here are some links.
http://www.jewsforjesus.org
http://www.jfjonline.org/about/statementoffaith.htm
http://www.jfjonline.org/about/history.htm

For instance I read that they were founded by a Jewish man, the majority of staff is Jewish and they use Jewish evangelism, not Christian evangelism which one may assume.

Re: RE: Jews for Jesus
 

So if a Jew for Jesus tells you something, he's right?

http://www.exjewsforjesus.org is one link off the top of my head to help discredit them.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22je...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 That should help with the reading to make informed decisions.

And please for my own sake please tell me what Jewish evangelism is and what Christian evangelism is.

Then we can start on what makes a Jew because in most people's eyes, once you believe what JFJ believes you are not Jewish but Christian.

-Rudey

Re: RE: Jews for Jesus
 

I have never heard of "jewish evangelism" Jews do NOT try to convert others. It doesn't exist. Conversion to Judaism is an extremely lengthy process to ensure only those who truly believe will convert.

And like other people have said, once you believe that Jesus is the messiah, you no longer are recognized as a Jew, but rather a Christian. Jews for Jesus are ethnicially Jewish, but have essentially renounced their Judaism.

it is absolutely a 100% Christian denomination. The whole point is to try to convert Jews into Christians.

-Rissa

Re: Re: RE: Jews for Jesus
 

We used to convert to Judaism but the practice stopped as a form of protection. I believe a few reform groups are more open to it these days, but on the whole we don't believe in it.

-Rudey

Re: Re: Re: RE: Jews for Jesus
 

I do know that the reform groups are more open to it. I'm reform, but like I said, we dont actively recruit- we wait for people who are interested in conversion to come to us. My Rabbi's wife converted before they got married.

Re: My last post
 

Interesting. I never ran into that situation in all my initiations and installations.

But if I did, I'd probably get really mad and yell

http://www.i-mockery.com/GeneralZod/sticker-large.gif

wptw

There's another word for Jews for Jesus. They're called Christians.

All Major Religions Acknowledge the Existence of Christ...

That Is All:)

What she said. Also, not only do most Jews believe that Jesus existed, but most believe that he lived an admirable life. We just don't believe that he was the Mesiah.

Also, Jews for Jesus is an organization that I find insulting. Once you believe that group's tenets, you are no longer Jewish. Please don't redefine my religion to meet your agenda.

And I also mostly agree what was said about Jewish evangilism. For the most part, we don't try and convert others in these times. There are a few exceptions; some Hasidic Jews, particularly the Lubavich, seek to convert Jews to their sect of Judaism.

Also, there is now a very small evangelical movement in the South that is recruiting Christians, who have a literal belief in the Old Testament. There was an article in the New York Times that cited this congregation: http://kolemeth.net/

I want to point out that the Hasidim only try to recruit Jews. They would not attempt to convince non-Jews to convert. So it's not really an exception.

Judaism does not proselytize, and in fact, if you approach a rabbi about conversion (into any movement), s/he is supposed to turn you away three times to test your convictions.

It depends on your org. Chi Omega's open motto is "hellenic culture and christian ideals". I'd talk to your new member educator or vice president or what have you and voice your concerns. No one is going to make you do something that is uncomfortable!!

I'm very impressed this thread hasn't been locked and deleted after all the other threads of today!

Kudos to everyone for not feeling offended over a debate on religion!

The issue with Hasidism is sort of grey, because they don't exactly consider reform Jews to be real Jews.

That synagogue, in Marrieta, was actively recruiting as of the 2002 article in the New York Times.

That post offended me, and this thread should be locked and/or deleted.















J/K :p

I love you Russ! :) Happy Pesach!

Love you too! :D Happy Pesach right back at ya!

Russ,
that's not true. They are Jews if their mothers are or if they converted. Their practiced religion however is another discussion and who do you think does accept it outside of the Reform movement?

As for Hassidim, you're all trying to pin something on the Lubavitchers which are an Eastern European sect. They don't try and convert you. They only look for other Jews, of any denomination, and try and make them more devout. That is something every religion does.

-Rudey

I'm not an expert on Hasidism, by any stretch. I worked in a Hasidic restaurant for several months, many years ago, and that's what I go by.

Now not to be totally ignorant and completely hijack the thread, but I'm curious, because I've know about the whole mom being Jewish thus children are Jewish as well.....so if my mom was Jewish, then automatically I would be Jewish even if I didn't want to be? Isn't religion more about your faith and less about being born into it? I guess I just wonder how that works because couldn't I choose not to be Jewish then and be Buddhist or Christian? Just wondering.

Someone is born Jewish and doesn't hold the faith or do anything and later on decides to become observant. He is and was a Jew.

Someone is not born Jewish and is Catholic until they decide they like Judaism. They are not a Jew until they convert.

Judaism isn't just a religion...that's probably pretty difficult.

The liberal Reform movements might recognize someone whose father was Jewish and not mother but that isn't accepted by a lot of other movements.

So the answer is yes and no.

-Rudey

I just thought that I would tell a semi-funny story:

When I was a freshman my next door neighbor in the dorms was a devout Christian. She was a wonderful, sweet person. She was of Jewish descent and was also very interested in that heritage. I'm not sure if she converted to Christianity at some point or if she was raised believing in Jesus as the Messiah. I don't *think* she was part of Jews for Jesus--I think she just considered herself a "Messianic Jew". I don't know much about it really. After our freshman year she ended up transferring to a college in Israel. I was always a little confused by her. I think she did events both in Hillel and GCF (Generals Christian Fellowship). I don't really know what was going on with her religious life. Oh well.

Anyway that's not the funny part. She was also a really talented vocalist and pianist and wrote original religious songs. WHICH SHE LIKED TO PRACTICE AT 6:00 IN THE MORNING. Now, Susan is not a morning person. Nor is she hyper-religious. So, Susan was not too happy to be awakened every morning by these songs.

The end.

Ok I get the conversion thing, because that is how I am now Catholic...though I didn't really convert because I was never baptised to begin with, but anyhow...how can you be considered a Jew if you don't practice the faith? What if the mother was a convert to Judaism...does that mean the kid isn't a "real" Jew? I guess it's that I don't understand how Judaism is not just a religion.

Again, this is all questioning because I don't really understand, not because I am questioning faith.

Once the mother converts, she is a Jew. There are events that the child needs to have done but they will be Jewish.

And to be honest with you, it's really confusing so people have tried to figure out if the Jews are a people a religion or a nationality...everyone has different answers.

-Rudey

Well i just wanted to say Happy Passover and Holy Week...and I feel for Chi Omega,it was mentioned to me.It is more of a moral issue rather then praising Jesus and such.We have many non-Christians who are in our chapter and they just do not participate in anything they feel uncomfortable in doing.I honestly can say that you will not have a problem,as long as they have the respect for your beliefs then its all good in the neighborhood.:D

Thanks. Appreciate the answers...I feel somewhat more enlightened.:)

Interesting fact: There were a lot of Jewish members of the Theta Beta Chi Omega chapter at IU when I was there...in fact, I think that chapter had one of the highest amounts of Jewish sisters, after AEPhi and SDT...I think either Chi O or AXiD had the most Jewish members after those two.

Did you go through RCIA? I was under the impression you had to be baptized in order to do that...

I almost had to whip out the masonic police on you. I hold my masonic heritage very dearly and hving dad, uncles, grand dads and so on all masons i was getting kinda concerned there.....but if these are public OK!:)

Yeah, it's OK. The bibilcal scripture pertaining to the first three degrees of Masonry are not kept secret witihn the Fraternity. Many volumes of masonic literature that are available to the public mention these and other scriptures referenced within our Fraternity.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cutiepatootie
[B]I almost had to whip out the masonic police on you. I hold my masonic heritage very dearly and hving dad, uncles, grand dads and so on all masons i was getting kinda concerned there.....but if these are public OK]