@deltabetababy. The thing is that Kanye combined WITH Kim has reached a level of celebrity so high it's hard to compare to anyone else now or even in the recent past. Think of the times one or the other has dominated the news. Kanye's comments at awards shows including the one about President Bush, stealing the mike fromTaylor Swift, his antics with paparazzi, the fact that Obama just made fun of his comments that he's going to run for President in 2020. And then Kim and her reality show her " breaking the internet" photos, the televised mega wedding followed the quickie divorce, the two of them marrying and having a baby they named North West ( even they couldn't resist playing around with that last name) never mind her extended family, her former step fathers domination of the news, her sisters ex in it right now. And Kanye still a music star on top of it ...headlining the music festivals that the kids go to like Lalapalooza and making fantastic songs like FourFive Seconds with a white man whose exband indeed provides many a GLO party theme more than half a century since it was formed.

It's just hard to compare Kanye to any other artist working today is my point.

No, they don't deserve to labeled as such, but when you (the general public) put yourself out there on the internet, you are leaving people to make their own interpretations.

While we here at GC can have an academic discussion about what is truly blackface and what isn't, again, the general public is not going to do the same.

Historically white GLO's have had these blackface / ethnic costumed theme parties in the past. The fact that this NPC chapter had charcoal smeared on their faces and called the part 'Kanye Western' was enough to make people concerned based on past incidents of NPC / IFC / NIC orgs.

If these GLOs choose to sue and win, they've won the battle.

But, it is not enough to win a battle, you need to win the war.

Based on my understanding, all GLOs operate on a college campus as a guest on the campus. It is the university's choice to decide to recognize the GLO, and the university can have GLOs removed.

GLOs really need to think about the images they are putting out there. If universities feel that the GLO is a negative reflection on the school, then the GLO can be 'kicked' off campus.

One of the issues we're dealing with in my own org is media/social media image. Our undergrad chapters are being told to keep it clean and above reproach. The internet is forever.

Your understanding of the First Amendment is poor.

I don't get why you keep arguing this when what your saying is flat out wrong.

If you look at girls dressed up as miners with pans of gold in their hands and dirty faces and all you see is black face. That's your own bias. That's you looking for the race problem. It's you hearing "white GLO and blackface" and automatically assuming the worst.

There's nothing wrong with saying, Hey I jumped to conclusions and thankfully this isn't what I thought it was. But nope, you're going to keep digging your heels in.

I'm not quite awake and thought your abbreviation meant Piece of Crap. Which of course is also kind of appropriate in the case of these two.

Which leads to another question....have Kim and Kanye weighed in on this at all? I'm thinking his glee over more recognition overrides his urge to identify himself as an oppressed black man.

I was also wondering if he's made any statement...I'm sure they have publicists attuned to any mention of them in the media.

This is indeed a good point. I think that a Kim/Kanye party is less problematic than rappers/hos or something like that. I would also personally tell any chapter who asked me to stay far, far away from either one.

So, basically--you can't make fun or light of the antics of an especially ridiculous celebrity if that celebrity is a person of color.

Got it.

And in this case, the people not only made their own interpretations but then staged a huge public protest and smeared people publicly and in a very high profile based on that interpretation, and in a way that will undoubtedly unfairly impact them for the rest of their careers, and all this based on an "interpretation" which if you spend more than 5 seconds thinking about it critically, is completely erroneous and impossible to defend.

That is completely unacceptable. Completely, utterly, reprehensibly unacceptable. The protestors involved were so carried away by being victims of an act that never actually occurred AND, like I said, required mere seconds of critical thinking to realize never occurred, and they never stopped to realize they were creating innocent victims of their own.

It's absolutely disgusting. There is absolutely no excuse for what happened here.

For what it is worth, my chapter had a "Starring Val and his Leading Gals" (Val Kilmer) party hah.

But, and let's make this perfectly clear, in this particular case the man in question is literally the biggest celebrity figure in the media and has been for many, many years now. The only figure possibly bigger than him is his wife, a white woman, who was also very clearly a focal part of this event.

If this was, say, a "Master P Make Em Say UGHHHHH" party, it'd be very clear we'd have a problematic focus on race. Also, this particular party cannot stand alone...I understand that GLOs have a long history of offensive ethnic parties.

But to say a party focused around a black and white couple, who are literally the most famous, mocked (in media), covered celebrities on the planet was based off of race and not off of the fame is stretching. I'll need way more proof.

Welcome to the reality of every unjustly incarcerated (who are mostly people of color) people.

Permanent life altering decisions based on rash interpretations and preconceived notions.

I think Kim identifies as mixed-race.

In any case, something doesn't have to be "racially motivated" to be racist. But in a general sense, people can be racist without trying or meaning to be racist, whether or not that's the case here.

I'm not comfortable with the theme, but I'm also not comfortable condemning it.

Its the context.

In this case for Alpha Phi it was:

1. 'Kanye Western' party
2. Dress like old time gold diggers, smear charcoal on face.
3. Charcoal on face is interpreted as actually being 'blackface', and not just dirt.
4. History of historically white GLOs having blackface / ethnic themed parties.


If the 'Kanye Western' party was done by any other group, then this backlash may not have even come up.

Given that about a year ago the historically white GLO fraternity in Oklahoma was caught on camera singing a song using the N-word, plus all of the recent protests over police killings and beatings of Black people, then that leaves any other incident after all this as suspect.

I'm sure the APhis meant their party to be innocent fun, but their actions are being judged and viewed through all of these recent social happenings.

People outside of GLOs are not going to ponder and debate what is blackface and what isn't. The way it is being seen by the public is this is just another group of white people making fun of Blacks because Kanye West is Black.

Kim is NOT mixed race. Her mother was born Kristin Mary Houghton of Irish descent. Her father was the late Robert Kardashian. Kardashian was Armenian. Armenians are a Caucasian people ( literally ....Armenia is in the Caucasus mountains. ) His complexion like Kim's was olive.

Wow - I don't even know how to process that. Any other incident is already suspect? That's quite a broad brush.

You said upthread that the treatment these women are receiving is comparable to that of those who are unjustly incarcerated. I find the comparison faulty, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think should happen when those unjustly incarcerated people are found to have done nothing wrong? Do you think those responsible for the incarceration/damage to reputation owe the incarcerated person an apology? If so, what do you think these women are owed in response to their undeserved condemnation?

So then you must be at least partially aware of how absurdly hypocritical your stance on this issue is. You are about one connection away from realizing what everybody else is trying to tell you. Make the leap.

My issue is not the theme. You can protest the theme. What you can't do is defiantly label a group of people as doing a specific heinous act, publicly shame theme and drag their names through the mud, when there is actually no proof it ever happened (and in fact, abundant proof to the contrary).

Yes, which was awful. And I wholeheartedly protested that and think the chapter deserved everything that happened to them. I also understand that actions like this will cause the offended group to be especially cautious of the institution as a whole. And yet...

If a person of privilege makes an uninformed assumption and unlawful accusation based on a stereotype, I have no doubt you would protest it (so would I). We must think critically about these things. That has to extend to both sides. If you are going to protest a heinous act and name names, you need to make DAMN WELL SURE it actually happened. The SAE racist chant absolutely happened without a doubt. There is video. There are witnesses. Same for when alumna at an SEC school (blanking on which one) blocked the pledging of a black woman.

In this case there is no evidence. In fact, it is blatantly clear to all who spend more than 5 seconds looking at the photo that it was not blackface. Nobody did their research here. Nobody thought critically. People jumped on a trope of "racist sorority" and ran with it without ever examining the evidence, you included based on your earlier posts where you clearly didn't even know what specifically the women were dressed as and clearly had not even seen the photos in question.

It used to be innocent until proven guilty. Our culture has shifted to guilty until proven innocent. You are arguing one step farther...you are actually arguing "GUILTY EVEN THOUGH PROVEN INNOCENT". How can you not see this???

To the red - that is a subjective statement. Since this situation has caused an uproar, it is not clear to all. Obviously, some saw the picture and thought, 'hey, that's cute', while others saw it as offensive.

Unfortunately, yes. That is why you had the response from the Afrikan Student Organization and the University.

Had there not been the recent incidents I listed, then this party from APhi would not even register as a blip on anyone's radar. BUT, since there have been all of these racially involved incidents, then *any*thing that even hints of negative racial involvement is magnified.

These women would be owed an apology. But if the evidence hangs on the picture of the chapter members that was posted, it would not be hard for someone to try to connect their appearance in the photo with other photos of white people in blackface. It is too close for comfort. And as I told DTDAlum, interpretation of the photo is completely subjective.

The gold-mining costumes in the photo were probably the most benign costumes at the party. As far as context, the CALIFORNIA Gold Rush shouldn't be a context so remote -- especially for students at a university in CALIFORNIA.

To soft-peddle what the Afrikan org and the University did as a "response" is grossly minimalizing what they actually did -- which was incite hysteria and punish based on nothing whatsoever. The students in the orgs unjustly attacked and punished absolutely deserve an apology and at the very least an official statement to clear the reputation of their orgs.

I doubt the official statement/correction would get the attention that the original accusations and "response" did, but it should. The UC Davis student newspaper further embellished the false accusations with its own version of events as if these were fact. I wouldn't want articles like this hanging out there about my org when the accusation is just not true:

http://www.theaggie.org/2015/10/14/racist-offenses-embarrass-uc-system/

Question for those in the know:

Have the sanctions on these orgs yet been lifted? It seems like this is a long time (at least 10 days now?) to punish these orgs with no evidence of the accusations.

Perhaps the admin is waiting and praying that a blackface photo actually does surface?

Question for the legal expertise on the thread:

Can an entity or org independent of the GLOs file a complaint or legal action against the university (regarding violation of 1st Amendment rights) without the endorsement/cooperation of the GLOs?

***ETA link to interesting article on the topic:

The Anti-Free-Speech Movement at UCLA

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/the-anti-free-speech-movement-at-ucla/410638/

I haven't checked in the past 24 hours, but last I looked the Alpha Phi chapter still had their Facebook, twitter, instagram STILL shut down and I have yet to read any kind of response from either that chapter or Alpha Phi nationals. I do know that the chapter was instructed to take down their social media sites during the "investigation". I'm frustrated ! Why isn't their national org giving them any support? I had hoped that the chapter, or nationals would have immediately sent a letter to all members of the chapter, the brand new pledge class, etc. telling them to hold tight, we are here to support you and help you through this! Instead, nothing! And new members have dropped out! Can't say I blame them either! They were scared. They were immediately judged and labeled as racists. Imagine what their parents back home thought? They probably called their daughters and told them to drop out immediately. I really think that Alpha Phi and Sig Ep have taken a big hit and they are deeply wounded. And what good is really coming from this? The Afrikan group was very very quick to harshly judge--and many have been deeply hurt. Did this fraternity party RUIN the fall quarter for the Afrikan American group???? Well, I do think that the fall quarter has been ruined for many members of Alpha Phi and Sig Ep at UCLA. I just do not see how anything good and valuable is going to come from this situation.

And wouldn't this have been a great opportunity to bring the Afrikan American group members together with IFC and Panhellenic to actually TALK! Talk with respect. To really listen and seek to understand. Without threats and name calling! Without intimidation tactics. Maybe then something could have been learned and understood on both sides of the situation.

No, it is absolutely damn well not subjective. A first reaction to a photo? Yes, subjective. A general sense of unease or offense over a party? Sure, yes. To declare it as "blackface" when it is not? No. Not subjective. At all. Disgusting.

This is not a gray area. The photo was either blackface, or it was not. While the men and women are entitled to feel uncomfortable about a theme, and even speak out on that theme, they needed to sit down, THINK CRITICALLY, like adults, before making a rash and 100% incorrect accusation and taking it so publicly. They did not just protest to say they were uncomfortable, they specifically said people were dressed in blackface. That never happened. That is not open for interpretation. They can decide to be offended, but they cannot claim something happened (especially that damning) that never did.

It's clear we don't agree. I just think your stance on this is egregiously unfair, completely ignorant, and cold.

"It looked like that man was jumping in a car to hijack that woman! It turns out after the evidence surfaced, she actually invited him in and they knew each other. But there has been a history of car hijacks in this area, and you know, this is all just so subjective, so if I interpret it as a hijacking, let's protest and charge him and put it in jail because that's what IIIIIII thought it was."

Regarding who can sue here, I would imagine any individual in these chapters who has been adversely affected, or any of the chapters themselves, potentially house corporations, anyone who has been damaged in terms of income or reputation or even being prevented from hosting a party or having some outside entity like the school restrain them from posting on social media, would probably have standing to sue.

I'd love to see them go after the University, any administrator who was complicit in anything adverse and especially this dumbass Afrikan group. They all need to be made examples of or it could happen to any one of our chapters.

Any of our chapters who have ever been involved in any event where someone showed up with face paint (yes, that is all that happened here) could be in the same position, guilty and damaged until proven innocent. We need to ensure that there are consequences for universities which violate our civil rights and for students or organizations which slander and libel us.

That is exactly what the Oklahoma SAEs are doing right now. I hope they win big. If they do, maybe these bullies will realize that this isn't something they can get away with.

Does anyone have an update? Chiolu, do you know what is happening at this point?

I am afraid that this will just be swept under the rug leaving two greek chapters very deeply bruised and their integrity not supported at all by administration. This has been a hard one for me to let go of because of the absurdity and lack of support for the fraternity and sorority involved. I will, however, let it rest. But if anyone has any follow up information please post.

File some lawsuits!!! If we don't create consequences for the assholes involved in attacking our chapters, it will happen again and again. If this sort of thing had happened to my chapter, we'd have made it into a literal federal case.

I'm just going to put this out there.

There are legitimate reasons to protest, but I don't believe in rioting - when you put other people in danger or damage someone else's property/credibility, you no longer are protesting.

Look, I'm a Hispanic guy - third generation. The Hispanic people in this country have been wronged and mistreated for decades, and I've seen some ridiculously bad, poorly-executed Mexican costumes in my day (Halloween, Cinco de Mayo, etc.), but I have never been offended.

Blackface is/was a bad idea, but another bad idea is frightening other people and putting their lives at risk. I'm with Kevin, sue anyone and everyone who organized the protest/riot and anyone who made a death threat.

The university should have called a cease fire and arranged a town hall meeting for all sides to come together and vent their frustration and offer apologies. Instead, it became a mess.

After seeing the news about the fake-baby-bump shower for Kim, I think the matter is settled in my mind. Mocking these two is a-okay.

Wait, what?

It wasn't even a baby shower, it was a surprise 35th birthday party!! And, yes, Kanye invited guests to stuff things in their shirts in order to look pregnant. The cake read "Happy Pregnant Birthday Kim".

See here: http://www.elle.com/culture/celebrit...irthday-party/


And.......is it just me, or does it look like Kylie Jenner jokingly stuffed her BUTT in this picture?? :eek: If so, that would be a bit ironic given the topic of this thread........


https://pmchollywoodlife.files.wordp...arty.jpg?w=600

I completely agree with you, NWguy. Something that was in bad taste and perhaps unwise has spun completely out of control. The reaction is far worse than the offending incident which might not have been offending had it been understood.

From the media I've reviewed, it seems some, instead of admitting that this might not be the best cause du jour around, have instead decided to double down. What credibility those individuals and organizations did have is in question now.

I'll try to get an update.
I do know that (mid-October) members of both groups were not wearing their letters due to death threats.
The CIA and FBI were involved.

From someone In-The-Know and a reliable source within the system.
I would not post such information without substance.

I agree, considering your position, I made the necessary edits and deletions. I apologize if my tone was off-putting.

Good for a laugh if you still have yesterday's newspaper (10/31) is the Mallard Fillmore cartoon strip.

"Halloween Costumes that are Still Okay" #1 "Swiss Person" "(even a stereotypical Swiss Person)" arrow points to goofy looking man in Lederhosen, embellished suspenders, swiss hat. To this Mallard says "Swiss people won't be offended or even care. But MORE importantly...People who are offended for a living won't care either!"

God Damn, PCNess has gotten so out of hand I can hardly stand it! You can't do this, you can't do that, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!:mad:

The news media reports only the bad news of Greeks and damn little of the Great we do.

While this is my thinkings, I am sure if others think about it they will become the same of mind.

We as Greeks need to speak out to any and all who will listen to us! We do so much good and because of a few stupid members we get stuck in the he heart of what we believe in!

So, let your voice be heard and do it now! How many Greek Members are there in Congress? Well, a bunch!!!:cool:

Not that our undergrads always "read" and "abide" ,but at least the message is being sent.

https://www.pikes.org/about-pike/new...themed-parties