gamma girl: What I meant is that we have a different pledging program. We can and have to cut women before we pledge them. Then the pledge requirements come into play, we cannot take everyone unless it is informal recruitment. But I do understand what you are saying that you can deny membership after the fact, we can deny before they pledge, and have to because we have limits on how many PNMS we can take per semester.

I remember that GSS had a PC of 60+ one semester and they had their hands full, another reason it is good to limit membership.

Actually, chapters of APO can deny membership to anyone who does not meet established pledging requirements. Each chapter is allowed to create its own pledging experience with its own requirements, as long as they follow our membership and risk management policies.

It is pledgship that we are discouraged from making selective. We usually do not offer bids or pre-select lines or pledge classes.

Of course there are always exceptions.

My Fault
 

Lexi,

Now I understand a little better what you were saying. Now we can't deny BEFORE we start, but after is a different story and that was the non-completion of service hours. A lot of ladies come into the sorority not fully understanding what a commitment it is...knowing that you HAVE to have a minimum of 15 service hours PLUS other things that the chapter is doing. A favorite quote amongst GSS sisters is, "It may be easy to get in, but it's hard as hell to stay in" :D

I should have known what it was you were trying to say; I have assisted with Rush @ GSU a year or two!

In response to the statement that "music organizations that try to do non-music philanthropies often get shot down"... My chapter has done things that are both music and non music related, without much controversy or anything. I think that no matter what the nature of your organization, any work for the common good should definitely be appreciated. If any organization that emphasizes philanthropy were to try to bar another group from helping their fellow humans, I would definitely question their sincerity.
Also, Alpha Chi Omega was founded as a music sorority, and many other NPC organizations were founded as things other than "socials" (I hate that term since we're all somewhat social!). Check out their website and read about the history of their founding. It's really pretty cool!
Roses,
Heather

I guess I'm confused as to what we mean by "fellow Greeks."

I'm in an NPC sorority, and consider anyone in an NIC, NPHC, other NPC sorority, a local, or Beta Sigma Phi to be a social Greek "like me." (Even though of course there are differences.) I would consider GSS and APOs service Greeks - certainly Greek, but not "like me." (We had APO on my campus, and at times the majority of APO was in NPC and NIC groups). With the musical groups, the fact that they're varying so much from campus to campus is interesting. It sounds like some chapters are functioning as social Greeks, whereas other places they are more professional or honorary.

The difference is, I don't consider honorary and professionals to be Greeks. Their orgs have Greek names, but affiliation in one is usually not the primary affiliation for the member.

The variance from school to school amazes me too! I know someone above mentioned Alpha Chi Omega (I think?) and that it was founded as a music sorority, but is now considered a purely social sorority. At least on my campus, that's how we view our chapter of DO. Like I mentioned before...for me my decision to go through Rush didn't really have anything to do with music...I like it and all, and I liked that a lot of our focus is on that, but I certainly wasn't thinking of any sort of professional boost, you know what I mean? Heck, I didn't even find out that we were a professional sorority until well into pledging.

I'm confused about the statement that affiliation isn't usually the primary affiliation for the member... maybe that's something that applies more to the service/honor orgs? For us, by becoming a DO you have to agree that it is your primary affiliation and that you will not pledge any other sorority... is that different for the other orgs? I'm confused that some orgs can have dual membership... isn't some sort of statement like that required? Or is it just ignored?

Also: In these groups - do you not go through Rush and recieve bids then? What do you mean you can't prevent anyone from joining...do you just continually accept new members, instead of having Rush each semester and being able to choose who becomes part of your group?

Ginger: I think the primary membership thing is; I'm a KD, an NPC group so I cannot join another NPC group, but I can join an honorary/service/music(Order of Omega, ODK, Rho Lambda...SAI....APO...GSS and so on) I am not aware that any other groups have the same restrictions....meaning if you are a GSS first, you can pledge a NPC groups as well. To me KD would be my primary membership...no matter

As for intake, it is my understanding that groups outside of NPC do not have a formal recruitment as the NPC groups, their intake is more similiar with our informal recruitment and they have to pledge everyone who wishes to be a members then initiate those you finish the plegding requirements. I am sure they have an intake time period that is once a semester or year not year round...

Hope I got that right!

What I meant was that in an NPC, NPHC, NIC, sometimes in a service org, and in musical orgs that are mostly social, people identify themselves publicly as that org - not so much with honor societies or interest groups they are in.

For example, I call myself an Alpha Xi Delta. I am in Sigma Tau Delta (English honor society), Gamma Sigma Alpha (Greek honor), and Order of Omega (Greek leadership), but I don't think of those as "the group I belong to," although I am proud to be a part of them. Similarly, people who are in Alpha Chi Sigma (chemistry interest org), don't generally identify themselves first and foremost as ACS, but whatever Greek group they belong to (if they do).

My litmus test (and this is terrible, I know), would be, if someone goes over to a fraternity house, gets way drunk and dies, what is the newspaper going to print about them? They won't say, "FuzzieAlum, a STD, was at the Pi Pi house when she died." They'll say I'm an AXD. They might say, "Dionysis, an APO, died at the Pi Pi house." Or "Ginger was drinking with her SAI sisters at the Pi Pi house when she died." But if SAI was primarily a professional interest group on your campus, they might not mention it.

Does that make any sense? Sorry to introduce so much death into this thread!

Fuzzie: That was funny, but a good example!

SAI and APO are not honorary...

DZ: was that directed to me? I meant anything but NPC...sorry, I changed it...I know they are not honoary.

Dionysus sums it up for my campuses
 

Texas Tech and Texas A&M are pretty much as Dionysus describes below...

I believe any group that uses Greek letters are greek, however I dont consider professional or groups such as yours to the "same" type i guess.

Are you a secret society, i mean do you hold ritual that only initiated members see? If so it sounds more like your org is turning into or is a "social" GLO you just arent labeling it as such. Then I would say yes.

If not then I just dont think it is the same. But that is just my opinion and I think those orgs are good to have.

But yes I do consider you Greek.:D

Yes, SAI is a secret society. I wouldn't say we're "turning into" a social org, as we have ALWAYS had secret ritual.

As far as being social or professional, the government recognizes us as a social organization, although we have some professional aims. Of course, I realize that just because the IRS says "yep, SAI is a social group" doesn't mean that's the case on every campus!

Exactly, Fuzzie. I think the most devestating change would be that any women in both NPC and SAI would have to choose between their two groups. I'm sure SAI would be on the losing end of that, simply because (as this thread has brought to light) on some campuses SAI is "just" a professional group. If someone is in a really fun, really close AXiD chapter, and a relatively low-key SAI chapter, it's not hard to see which one they'll choose. We currently have over 90,000 initiated members. I can't imagine how many we'd lose over something like this. Unless NPC changes the rule and allows those in NPC and SAI to keep both memberships (under a grandfather clause), I'm sure we won't be applying for NPC membership anytime soon.

I have a question for my fellow service and music greeks.

From my observations, some service and music GLO's do STRICTLY service and music. Other service and music GLO's are actually SOCIAL hiding behind service and music letters. I admit, my chapter leans toward the latter (sp?) one. Possibly, that can be the source of my :confused: when it comes to boundaries. I just don't see the big difference between my organization and the rest.

How much do you all do that is service/music? And, how much do you all do that is "social"?

BTW I don't consider honor and professional (except DSP) GLO's as "greek".

We have four members of Delta Omicron in my sorority AGD.. two are executive officers, so I guess it is okay.

On another note, Farmhouse and Alpha Gamma Rho are both at my school. Farmhouse and AGR do rush with all the other NIC fraternities, because they are apart of the IFC. AGR still has a set percentage requirement of Agriculture majors in their chapter but Farmhouse doesn't. They have majors from all over the school and are actually one of the larger fraternities on my campus.

Ceres is on my campus, but because they are not NPC they don't rush with use, they only do it within the Ag. Dept. But, they are not exclusive to Ag majors, you can join if you are any major from what I understand.

Okay, I think I understand a little better now...

I think most of my confusion is stemming from that DO, at least where I went to school, functions as a social sorority and not a professional one. We hold formal rush and have absolutely no obligation to bid everyone that rushes. In fact the year before I pledged, we were trying to set up with the other social sororities on campus to hold our Formal Rushes together, but it for some reason it got voted down. We hold initiation and ritual. We are members for life. We have a clause that specifically states that we can not be a member of any other social sorority, although we can be in a professional or honourary one like STD.

I'm absolutely shocked that there are DOs that are members of other social sororities - like I said before, we were taught that that is not permitted per Inter/national, although maybe that's changed since I've been in college.

As to whether most of our activities are music based or social based...I'd say a good mix of both. We do most of our philanthropy work with music emphasis (ie. music in our schools month, etc.) but we also do other philanthropy (when we're allowed to!). We do a lot of socials, though, too, whether they be sisterhood events or mixers/formals with other organizations. I thought that's the way all the DO chapters were, but maybe not...

When I said that we can't formally deny membership, I didn't mean pledging requirements. What I meant was that we cannot deny membership based on subjective criteria. For example, if someone had a reputation (true or false) of being a "slut", we cannot deny her membership because of that. We don't "cut".

APO cannot deny anyone the chance to PURSUE membership. Whether they are successful in that pursuit is another matter entirely.

Exactly.

What?
 

All I have to say is the College of William and Mary. If you know the greek history surrounding that, there should be no questions as to who's greek and who's not.

Some things to think about.
 

I (the start of this thread) have thoroughly read all posts and have some thoughts on various things.

I think many of you have the wrong perception of SAI. SAI is NOT an honorary society. It is called a fraternity for women because it functions as a fraternity/sorority in that we have ritual, rush, pledging, badges, the whole nine yards. Yes, the "focus" is music...but we don't just have meetings, discuss music, and leave. No. We have meetings about musical things, of course; but we also discuss sisterhood activities, fundraisers, recruiting possible new members, etc etc. And when we have social functions, sometimes music is a theme...but usually not. We'll all go out to eat, or things like that.

We wear SAI shirts, carry SAI keychains and ID holders, and sport SAI lisence plates and decals on our cars. When we dress up, we always wear our badge with pride. How different is that than, say, an Alpha Gamma Delta chapter that the members wear the lettered t-shirts, carry AGD keychains and ID holders, wear their badges, and sport AGD paraphanellia on their cars? It's NOT different. Our chapter is very close, as are most chapters. We are sisters, we pride ourselves in being members of such a wonderful sisterhood, and maybe our focus is music...but as far as sisterhood goes, I can tell you right now we are just as close as say a chapter of AGD would be. My sisters are some of my best friends.

SAI is for life. There are many, many alumni chapters which work closely with the college chapters.

I get the feeling from a few of the posts I've read that some of you don't consider SAI greek because of the music part. And why? Because I can't TELL you how many social greeks on my campus have snubbed me because they consider music people as 'band nerds' and 'choir geeks'. One girl even told me that "band geek sororities are the joke of the entire greek community." :mad: Now please, don't think that I look down at social GLOS; I do not. I only look down on the certain individuals who have snubbed me and my sisters, as well as members of Tau Beta Sigma.

That's my two cents.

So being in orchestra makes me a nerd, eh?

They give me money to do it! (and I like playing)

Here's my feeling on SAI.... They could be considered on the same level as other sororities on their campus (or do you prefer women's fraternities?) but they don't apply to Panhellenic... (I'm talking out of my ass here so if I'm wrong someone feel free to correct me). Some campuses I'm sure would allow SAI to apply to be part of the mainstream greek community if they wanted to. But they don't. That's what makes them "not one of us".

But still greek.

Re: Some things to think about.
 

Though I am not a member of your fraternity, I know of SAI, and often converse with the members here at TSU. You and I both know that SAI is just as greek as any other fraternity or sorority. This also applies to my fraternity, Alpha Phi Omega, and Kappa Kappa Psi, Tau Beta Sigma, and Gamma Sigma Sigma.

You don't have to explain your organization to NOBODY! You hear me. Keep doing you thing, and let others think what they may.

Re: Non-social GLOs...do you honestly consider us fellow Greeks?
 

I've been reading this thread with great interest, trying to sort out my thoughts. To start, I am an SAI as well as a Kappa. I think SAI is a great organization, but I had a VERY negative collegiate experience. I guess the question of whether SAI and other music GLO's are considered on the same plane as NPC, etc. groups varies from school to school with the attitudes of the members of both groups.

I went to a school that houses one of SAI's oldest continuously operating chapters. It is one of the few Midwestern schools with a conservatory of music, music in general is a pretty big deal there. I joined Kappa first, at first I did not have the grades to get into SAI (but I worked my butt off and pledged a term later). I had always planned on joining SAI because my best friend is a Sinfonian, and from the start I considered it to be something completely different from Kappa. Kappa was for social promotion, SAI existed to improve my life and the lives of others through music. At first, things seemed ok. As time went on though, the divisions between the two groups, as well as SAI versus the other two NPC groups on campus, widened.

I think it all started when a girl I'll call Ellen wanted to pledge. During Rush, we were going down the list of girls who expressed interest in SAI, talking a little bit about each from her biography. No, nothing bad, just "she plays in the band but she's actually a biology major," things like that. The VP-Rush, when she came to Ellen's name, got really excited and said "Oh, she's so excited about joining SAI because she had a really bad experience during [NPC] rush." I should have left right then, for that was a sign of things to come. The truth is, Ellen was only interested in one group, and when they cut her before pref, she started bad-mouthing her rush experience rather than give the group that DID invite her back a shot. She passed this attitude on to all of her friends, a group of about 10 or 12, none of whom rushed NPC. Those 10 or 12 stuck together a lot, and as juniors held all the major positions in the group. As more NPC women joined SAI, the chapter began to divide between those in NPC groups and those who thought they were snobby elitists. Once they were in positions of power, they began to speak in a very holier-than-thou tone regarding not only the NPC groups, but the women who were members of both. They considered themselves more dedicated, better members, etc. This caused a rift that is still there three years after I graduated. Many members of both NPC GLO's and SAI took alum status early, because they feel the same way I do. They didn't want to deactivate because they respected SAI and what it stands for, but they were too uncomfortable in the group.

Today, that SAI chapter does all it can to tell the world they are not anything like an NPC group, and I really think it goes too far. As an example, DG approached SAI, asking if SAI would put together a team for Anchor Splash. All the NPC and NIC groups put together a team, and so did some residence halls and the Outdoor Recreation Club. SAI said "Oh no, we're a professional organization, we don't do things like that," and ignored DG's response that Anchor Splash was open to all groups on campus, and that it was for their philanthropy. Yet SAI is not above having formals. Sinfonia basically goes along with whatever SAI does.

The short version: I do not consider SAI to be on the same level as Kappa. One is certainly not better than the other, they simply exist for different purposes. Should SAI's be considered "real" Greeks? I think so. The ancient Greeks were enamored with music, I think they would be pleased that SAI exists and does what it does. Since I am in both, I can't exactly consider myself my fellow Greek :), but do I think the different orgs deserve the same amount of respect? Yes. Maybe I am the dissenting voice because of my personal experience. A DG at my former school might tell you that she does NOT consider SAI's fellow Greeks because of the way SAI acts when it comes to NPC groups. Think about how the groups regard each other on campus, and it is there the answer to your question lies.

sairose,
I totally agree with you about SAI being a just as much of a social sorority as any other one. But I just wanted to say that members of the music organizations at the schools I have gone to act the same way to the social organizations, they want nothing to do with them. I have a friend in Phi Mu Alpha and he makes fun of the greeks and says that he is happy that they are not apart of the social glo's because we are stuck up. I just wish that all of the organizations could just get along and be greeks together. Oh well I am sounding corny now.

Anne Marie

Anne Marie, I don't think you sound corny at all. I think the same thing is happening at your school that's happening at mine: The Sinfonians and the SAI's have formals and parties and things, but God forbid they should be associated with the social GLO's. Women join SAI as the "anti-sorority" and believe that they stand on a higher ground because SAI was founded on different principles. I wish the SAI chapter at my school had had more respect for the NPC groups, but the fact is that they don't and they're losing a lot of their members because of it. BTW, the NPC groups are NOT hypocritical about this, my SAI membership was encouraged by Kappa and no one in Kappa ever thought me to be a lesser sister because of it. SAI is respected on campus by Panhel, which is strange considering the circumstances.

I just wanted to third that...This has happened at my school and I had to continually say "Hello! You think I am normal and I am a member of an NPC group!" and they would say "Oh, but you're different. You're not like the REST of them..." Yeah right. They want to do the same things and then they complain that they can't afford it while at the same time badmouthing the NPC groups because their dues are expensive (hello, we do more stuff, of course it costs more). I would say that my SAI experience also left something to be desired. Of course that is NOT to say that SAI is a bad organization because I love SAI and I think that it is a very important group and nationally a very positive thing for musicians and those who support music. I just wish that the chapters that have the wrong attitude would wake up and smell the coffee.

sairose, dzsaigirl, KappaStargirl - I PMed you.

Re: Re: Non-social GLOs...do you honestly consider us fellow Greeks?
 

I think you've got that in a nutshell, KappaStargirl. At least with FMA, I know that some chapters like being the "anti-fraternity" so to speak, while many others want to be involved in Greek life in general. There does seem to be a trend of Sinfonia chapters joining their school's IFC, and from what I have heard, their experience has generally been positive, both in terms of involvement and of recruitment.

Some of this situation may be fostered by the fact that students in many music schools/departments tend, for a variety of reasons, to be "a world unto themselves" in lots of ways. On the other hand, there are FMA chapters without a single music major in them.

It can get more complicated, too. At my school, some of the members of MFE liked portray themselves as the "anti-Sinfonia" alternative because they, unlike us, were co-ed. Some took special pleasure in pledging a guy (which they only did a few times) because it seemed to be a way of saying we were too "social," too much like "other fraternities" (which we didn't have a problem with anyway). Go figure.

BTW, kudos to Kappa! Mrs. MysticCat is one. ;)

Re: Non-social GLOs...do you honestly consider us fellow Greeks?
 

Absolutely!!! :D

Since I'm the one who started this thread I've been reading every post and I've collected some more thoughts on the issue.

Sometimes people *do* pledge music(or other non-social) GLOs because they want to be in one without being in a social one. I pledged SAI for a number of reasons, but the main reason was that I wanted the Greek experience; I wanted a group of girls to call my sisters. However the greek system at my school leaves much to be desired. Unfortunately the social sororities at my school tend to drink a lot and I am a Christian and I believe it is wrong to drink. (Please don't start a religious war on here though; that is simply MY belief; I respect what anyone else on Greek Chat believes, so please respect me for this too). I knew I would not be comfortable with a group of girls that drink a lot; I felt it would pressure me to do things that I didn't want to do.

So yes, I guess you can say that SAI was a much better Greek option for me. We have a small chapter--10 or 12 girls--and only two drink, and they have NEVER encouraged me to drink. I still have all the other benefits of being Greek, but without the pressure and temptations. :)

Has anyone else on here in non-social GLOs joined their groups for similar reasons? Just curious.

ANYWAYS....my point is, yes, in some ways people tend to join groups like SAI as an alternative, but we are still Greek. I really hope that someday, there won't be all these divisions--she's a social Greek, she's a black Greek, she's a music Greek, she's in a service Greek. I hope someday, we'll all just simply be seen as "Greek", no matter WHAT type of GLO we are.

As long as we all have separate systems (NPC has different rush than NPHC and service groups have non-selective rush; NPCs mix with IFCs and NPHC mix with each other; professional and service Greeks generally don't have houses) we will continue to regard ourselves as different from each other. I don't think that's a bad thing; APhiO for example serves a very different purpose from AXD, and that's why I know people who are members of both. However, I'm not suggesting one kind of Greek should think of themselves as "better" than another. I respect service GLOs and other groups I chose not to join. People should join the organizations where they feel at home and that meet their needs.

(I would say that honor societies, despite their Greek names, aren't GLOs, but that's about the only exception I would make.)

First of all I want to send out much love to anyone that has ever made the decision and gone through the ritual of pledging any organization. It takes a special kind of person to decide that greek life is something that they want to partake in.

Now in response to question I feel that all greek lettered organizations should be treated equally. We all pledged, we all went through the rituals that are traditions of our chapters as well, as our national organizations, and we all made a decision to dedicate our time, love and hardwork to something other than ourselves and our education. We all pay dues, we all socialize, and we all try to better our campus and our surrounding communities, therefore we all deserve the same respect and equal treatment whether we sit as members on any national greek board such as the NPHC.

I am a proud member of Gamma Sigma Sigma National Service Sorority, and at my school we do all of the same things that the social greeks do and we where pins and jackets and shirts, and step and everything else, therefore we should be treated just like any of the other organizations and generally speaking we are. Every now and then you are going to run into some issues, but it is up to you as members of your individual organizations to make sure that you get the respect and recognition that you feel is your do. You can't really complain if you aren't trying to do anything to make it better.

That's all for now.

WEEEEEEEEEEE-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP
to all of my sorors out there!!

Wee-Oop Back at Ya Bunny
 

Wellll I just think my soror put it down.

I have much LOVE and RESPECT for ALL greeks out there, whatever you may be. Always in Greek Unity! :D

YES, I am a proud member of 2 Fraternitys!

LXA and APO!

Enuff said!:)

Hate to sound like a broken record here.... But there is no absolute standard for what is or isn't a Greek org.

It's all relativism.

People here are getting really hung up on whether something IS or IS NOT a GLO in the same sense.... I think that at different campuses, your SAI's, Mu Phi Alphas, APO's are all extremely different from place to place.

When I was active in CKI I would have never thought to call it a fraternity -- but that's often how it is at some campuses (just not mine).

I'll say that as far as what I would consider Greek -- I'll know it when I see it!

As long as you love your organization and call your members brothers or sisters (or whatever) that's enough for me!

I am a member of both Sigma Alpha Iota and Alpha Xi Delta, and frankly I don't consider SAI to be, officially, a greek organization. I know we have all the rituals and stuff, which is cool, but I know if I had to choose between the two, I would choose Alpha Xi. And if I wasn't in SAI, I wouldn't consider it Greek. A lot of that's because we don't participate in Greek Week, we don't do recruitment at the same time or follow the same rules (frankly, we do things in my chapter--not hazing--that we could never get away with in a social GLO because of PC rules). A lot of people at my campus consider SAI and Phi Mu Alpha members as "wanna-be Greeks" or the organizations people join if they want to be like the Greeks but still maintain a squeaky clean image.
And I know SAI isn't just for music majors. We've only had one in the time I've been there (2.5 years)! But it is limited to people who are musical.

non-social Greeks
 

Yes, I do consider non-social Greeks to be a part of the Greek life community. I know that they sometimes feel as though they are excluded, but I guess it's more a question of how the organization itself wishes to be viewed. I've sat on the committee for Greek Week and, although we invited them, no non-social Greek organizations took part in Greek Week. Also, when I was philanthropy chair, I extended invitations to the non-social Greek organizations on our campus (ALL of them) to take part in our events that are open only to Greeks, but only Alpha Phi Omega responded.

I think it really all depends on the different schools and their over-all attitudes toward Greek life as to who is or is not considered to be part of the Greek community.