Thanks for answering my question (my goodness, there may still be hope). Let me see if I can understand what you're saying. I'm not trying to twist your words or discredit your idea, this is just what I got from your statement (I hope I haven't missed any standard greek life disclaimers). Are you saying that our International/National Presidents should invoke an executive order of some sort that would make it a requirement for (example) Delta Sigma Theta and Delta Zeta to work together & be sociable? IF SO, I have a few questions: How would being "forced" to hang with another group be beneficial to either group? What about the campuses (HBCUs come to mind) that don't have NPC/NIC chapters or the campuses where one of the two groups is missing & there isn't a chapter nearby? What about the hundreds of DST Alumnae chapters that may not have a Delta Zeta Alumnae counterpart in their city? I say all this to say it seems kind of silly to set policy about something that doesn't affect the majority of the membership.

WHY NOT start on the chapter level? I don't have to have my chapter's "approval" to invite my friends who are not Deltas or not in NPHC groups to our next public service project or any other event and I would hope the same would go for the flip side of that equation. You learn a whole lot by talking to people & it may surprise you that many of us do public service at the same places. Why not take the attitude of "since we're both going to be there, why not do something together?"

In everyone's attempt to answer my question, I HOPE you asked yourself how far you're willing to go to make a change. Are you going to quit after you get turned down the first time or are you going to persist? If you're going to quit after the first try, we don't need to have this conversation anymore because it will end up with everyone getting upset and no one resolving the issue.

Think about all the successful changes that have happened: the end of slavery, the women's suffrage movement, prohibition, the repeal of prohibition, the founding of your organization, the founding of your chapter...I doubt ANY of the people involved in the events I mentioned got a "yes" on their first try.

All I'm saying is, if you REALLY want change, YOU will be the catalyst of that change. You won't be sitting on your butt waiting for it to happen because there will ALWAYS be more people who are more than happy with the way things are than there are people who want to change things.

You have your topic. Discuss.



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Have nothing to do this weekend? Check out the Events Forum

Kelli
#12 Delta Nu (Savannah State University) Wtr. 1994
MAL, Southern Region

An equal opportunity grumpy person.

12dn94dst: IMO, I don't think finest_alum was saying that IHQs should force their organizations to hang out, but here's an example...Alpha Gamma Delta and Lambda Chi Alpha have a program that they sponsor together called the Double Vison program, which deals with alcohol awareness. What if ABC organization from NPHC and XYZ organization from NPC got together and sponsored a diversity awareness program or something. That would be a positive way for the those organizations to become closer and hopefully inspire other organizations to follow their lead.

Leslie_AGD, I couldn't think of a better word than force, that's why i put it in quotes. I still don't understand why promoting unity should be something that trickles down from the top. I'm just looking at it from the stand point that many national programs started as local initiatives, but I like the example you gave. That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

[This message has been edited by 12dn94dst (edited July 07, 2001).]

Spy games? What spy games? I wasn't doing anything. I just noticed that u have criticized a number of my postings. And the comment about u knowing stuff about me? Is that a threat? Just from what I post, you know nothing about me. In my opinion, and also my firends, I am a truly caring friend and sister, who tells people things when they need to know them, and who is always there. So tell me what u do know about me? I'd love to hear it.

By the way, "pink is my signature color". Sorry to burst ur bubble.

Really, what I do not understand, is why us white folks berate those with a better tan than us? White Folks I mean!
We as LX Z have had many various ethnic groups and colors in our house! I look at the individual and if you dont you are moronic! Well What!!!!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

I totally understand u. My org has Philipino, Albanian, Asian, and yes we've even had an African American. Not many go through Rush, and if they did and they had a great personality and got along, we'd be happy to bring them in! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

Responding to the questio
 

I feel that African Americans started greek life for there selves because of all the racial trouble that occur way back when, and you have to understand African Americans tried to unite and come together with an agreement just like others, but your forfathers did not see it that way. what i am trying to say is we had to find something that we can call our own also, and to feel comfortable about our selves as people. I am a African American male, but i'm not in a national African American fraternity either, but it's all about who you are comfortbale with, if white people back in the 1900's felt comfortable with letting African American into their fraternites and sororities and into school period we wouldn't be having this conservation or debating on this topic at all. It's not about the color, but it's about being comfortable with the rihgt people, now i have a question for you"why did you join the fraternity that you are apart of"? get my drift. I have alot of white friends and some are thinking about joining our fraternity so it's not about seperation it's about once again who u feel comfortable with, you know. I hope this does not offend you in any way or form and i know you love black people , just like i love whites lol hey we are in this fight together and one day we have to answer to GOD on the duties we did here on earth. So next time ask someone about the African Americans greeks and what they are willing to do to unite with the other greeks on your campus and it's not up to them to prove who they are it's up to you to find out, I bet the African Americans on your campus know about your fraternity why is it that you don't know about their.

From your brother from the newly accliam fraternity Mu Omega Pi, were taking greek life to a higher level.

May GOD Bless you all and remember Greek'ss Rulessssss

People are going to go where they feel comfortable.....bottom line. At my campus we had a number of African-Americans who went through NPC/IFC rush and joined chapters. I also distinctly remember a white male rushing and joining a NPHC chapter. I don't see the problem with having the two separate systems. I understand that there is a lot of "mystery" surrounding the NPHC chapters and I for one always wished we had events/mixers with them, but these are bridges that can be gapped chapter by chapter, campus by campus. If a, IFC fraternity was having a party that needed a co-sponsor, how about one of the IFC guys asking a guy in one of his classes if his NPHC chapter would be interested? How about one of the NPC org's asking a NPHC sorority to join them in a philanthropy? I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if I were an African-American, I would have been drawn to one of the traditionally black chapters. These would be the women who understood me the best, knew the unique situations of my life, etc. That's what sisterhood is based on. I am not saying that you shouldn't "cross lines" when you feel comfortable, but I think it is a cop-out to accuse blacks of segregating themselves by joining traditionally black chapters. Just my two cents.;)

I agree with a lot of the other posts. Around the time that some of the GLO's were founded things were segregated and mixed race organizatons were unheard of. In the 21st century however, we do have ethnic people in GLOs and various races in BGLO. I know on our campus we have racial mingling amongst our Greek organizations like Greek Week and on-campus parties, but if you asked me if it would be the same back in 1920 I would say no. I don't think the idea behind BGLO was racist in theory but moreso to have somewhere to belong. We are all human regardless of race and have the same basic needs, especially feeling as though one belongs and is loved.

An Asian American Perspective
 

Hello Everyone,


Well, I was skimming through the many responses to the question, and generally I see a lot of "white glo" vs. "black glo" reponses. However, as being a member of an Asian American Greek Letter Organization, I would like to respond to the original question.

I understand why someone would attempt to eradicate what they deem is "segregation" but perhaps it may be important to understand why that certain organization was started. It's kind of like the MELTING POT analogy of our country. People would like the U.S. to be a MELTING POT, but in that sense you are not recognizing the value of people's cultures but assimilating those cultures to the general value of the majority's culture. In the SALAD BOWL analogy, these different ethnicities can be allowed to value their own culture yet experience and understand the roles of various other groups. By establishing one general organization, you are in a fact assimilating that group. What you deem as "segregation" may be in fact a way to create more diversity.

In my sorority nationwide we have sisters of different cultures, two of the sisters at my own school were of latina descent (one being a founder). Regardless of our sorority's purpose (to promote Asian American awareness and strengthen the role of women in higher education), we can't deny the cultures of each of our members. SISTERHOOD is color blind, but our world isn't. It is a fact that some groups are less priviledged than others, and the creation of such minority greek organizations are aimed at changing that fact. So by eliminating such greek organizations, aren't you in fact taking away some of the benefits that we provide to minority groups that might not otherwise be present... In other words... for the organizations that do not focus on a certain racial/ethnic group, how often do you focus on the problems that Asian American, Latino American, African American, Native American people face, and don't you have brothers/sisters that face these problems? Just be thankful that there are organizations out there that do......

In eternal love and friendship

Empirical BGLO Project
 

CFP: Edited Volume on Empirical Studies of Black Greek Letter Organizations (BGLOs)

Edited by M. W. Hughey (University of Virginia) and G. S. Parks (Cornell University).
We invite submissions for an edited volume on Black Greek Lettered Organizations (BGLOs). In recent years, scholarship on BGLOs has sprouted up and has been received as a rich and contextual area of study for many practitioners across traditional academic boundaries. That is, out of its initial genesis in Higher Education, study of BGLOs has come to attract a vast array of interdisciplinary focus. This work hopes to assist the field blossom as today BGLOs are one of the most influential black-centered organizations, and they still hold critical purchase in the discourse and praxis of identity politics in a postmodern age. By couching this volume within the ethnic, gender, and cultural studies arenas that have been historically attentive to issues of power and representation – and by focusing on empirical studies – we hope to advance the study of BGLOs, to lend rigor and substance to recent trends that over-depend on abstract theorizing, and to reach an audience that is both academic and popular.

In this vein, academicians who are trained in empirical methodology but unaware of critical issues in BGLO related affairs, or vice versa, scholars who are well-versed in the culture, history, and social organization of BGLOs but lacking in the implementation of rigorous empirical methods, should not feel this is beyond their scope. The editors, with the council of the Advisory Board [co-chaired by Dr. Edward Whipple, Vice President for Student Affairs at Bowling Green State University and author of New Challenges for Greek Letter Organizations: Transforming Fraternities and Sororities into Learning Communities (1998) and Dr. Walter Kimbrough, president of Philander Smith College and author of Black Greek 101: The Culture, Customs, and Challenges of Black Fraternities and Sororities (2003)] will pair scholars together, if needed or requested, for collaborative chapters.

Potential projects could examine, but are not limited to, the following:

Academic achievement
Authoritarianism or Democracy in their BGLO Organizational Ontology
BGLO Politics (e.g.: Qualities and characteristics that predict election to national office)
BGLOs and (un)involvement in local politics
BGLOs and Afrocentricity
BGLOs and Geographic Regionalism
BGLOs and the Question of Black Nationalist vs. Assimilative Agendas
BGLOs and their Iconography (e.g.: Kappas and canes, Omegas and gold boots, etc.)
BGLOs and their role in the Civil Rights Movement
BGLOs on White campuses vs. BGLOs on HBCUs
Black Sororities and 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Wave Feminism
Black Sororities and Women’s Liberation
Colorism/Internalized Racism (e.g.: Brown bag and blue vein tests)
Council Decision Making vs. Hierarchical Leadership in BGLOs
Cultural competence of Greek affairs advisors
Dating behavior among BGLO college members
Difference between Alumni/Undergraduate Chapters
Differences in the Portrayals of Founders among BGLOs
Eating disorders and sororities
Feminist/womanist identity development
Films featuring BGLOs (School Daze, Drumline, Stomp the Yard, etc.)
Hazing/pledging/MIP
High Functioning vs. Low Functioning Chapters
Homosexual members
Leadership development
Leadership vs./and Service
Militarism in the traditions of BGLOs
Non-black members
Non-Christian members
Oral Traditions of Chapter Histories among BGLOs
Politics within BGLOs
Portrayal of BGLOs in works of fiction
Public perception of BGLOs
Racial identity development
Reasons why people choose to join certain BGLOs
Reclamation/organizational behavior
Sexual aggression/date rape
Significance of BGLO poems and narratives
Spirituality/religiosity
Stereotypes of Individual Organizations
Substance use/abuse
The Politics of Small vs. Large Chapters
The Question of Traditional Animosities between organizations (e.g.: AKA and Delta)
The Semiotics of Greek Paraphernalia (line jackets, etc.)

Those interested in contributing should send a CV with a list of five (or less) topics they would be interested in exploring to the lead editor (M. W. Hughey) by 1 November 2006: mwh5h@virginia.edu. Potential contributors will be contacted about submitting an abstract by 15 December 2006.

More information about the project can be found at: http://empiricalbgloproject.blogspot.com/

Let the WGLOs do their thing and BGLOs do theirs. They're both different and can't communicate so lets just let it be.

:rolleyes: @ this thread being brought back up.

I had forgotten how dumb some of the posts were. LOL.

Don't call them 'WGLOs' 'cause they will have a fit. Be prepared for some flack. :o

No. He shouldn't not call us "WGLOs" because we will have a fit.

He shouldn't call us "WGLOs" because that's not what we are.:rolleyes:

if this is the "prejudism" thread, i have to admit a guilty pleasure. one of my favorite posts on GC. EVER.

Most race threads on GC are guilty pleasures but I don't recall if this is the "prejudism" thread. :)

Some of us will never agree with you all on that contention. So no need to beat a dead horse. Along with the PWI dead horse. :)

I happen to be black in an almost all white fraternity and I can tell you many schools have all white fraternities, and I know a couple of TKE members who in no means do I consider racist, but they really seem to automatically look at blacks as "they wouldn't want to join our fraternity". I wouldn't mind being in a black fraternity, but I'm glad they exist because they offer many things most non-black fraternities don't offer. My dad is Kappa Alpha Psi from the 70's and even at UC Berkeley wouldn't have stood a chance at getting into any non-fraternity on campus. They existed because back in the day blacks couldn't get into other fraternities/sororities, and because of that have evolved with a different flavor, not to mention that any race is welcome to pledge for a black fraternity. Kappa Alpha Psi at Stillman University isn't just all black.

Not only were we Founded because blacks were not allowed entry into most fraternities and sororities in the early and mid 1900s, blacks were also not allowed at most of the PWIs (of course not every BGLO was Founded at an HBCU so there were some blacks at some PWIs).

We were also Founded because of a need to nurture the intellectual, spiritual, cultural, and structural needs of the black community/ies. The general belief was/is that we need to start with the core of our community before we branch out to help others.

^^Amen

I agree with this outsiders assessment. There does seem to be some sense of cultural superiority when it comes to traditionally white Greek-letter organizations. It is suupremely ironic in that the reason for the push towards desegregating GLOs was because of their exclusive attitudes, not only racially but religiously and in terms of class also. Now, many act as though history doesn't matter and that BGLOs and other groups are prejudiced and exclusive. Wow!

In reality, there are people in all groups who favor racial exclusivity and most who don't.

I know this is a little off topic, but I'm shocked to find out that NPC and NPHC sororities don't "mingle" anymore. Back when I was an active, Delta Zeta and Alpha Kappa Alpha cosponsored a lecture series on women's health every year. (The slogan was cute... "Two sisterhoods sharing two colors and one goal: Educating women"). All GLO's participated in Greek Week, regardless of their ethnic status, and every fraternity participated in our Greek God contest.

Wow... times have changed :(

Don't take what's in this thread as the norm at every school. If DZ & AKA did that back in your day at your campus, chances are they probably still do.

Yeah, every campus is way different. I always hear about chapters all over where bruhs will do a function or mingle with an IFC/NPC org, whether it is an awareness campaign, or a mixer. At my school, we didn't do it too much, but some of the time commitments and priorities were factors in the lack of participation. I don't want to generalize(I always say that), but spending hours working on stuffing tissue paper into chicken wire for a homecoming float, for example, didn't seem as important as putting in work for a charity event, community service project, or fundraising step show. It's not that the NPHC orgs would refuse stuff, it was just hard to get motivated for some things that were IFC/NPC staples on campus (serenades, lip sync competitions). Now, I know that members of different councils would attend each other's functions, but it would be because those people had friends in a specific organization to support, not because it was expected as a chapter or anything. I hope that makes some sort of sense.

This statement really makes me sad. Although a lot of sororities and fraternities were founded by caucasion individuals, that doesn't make them "white" GLOs. I think everyone should just join whatever GLO they feel comfortable in. I guess I am just a bit naive though.

No, You are not naive at all.

It just seems the small mindedness of a few people is underwhelming!

Men and Women join a GLO for one thing and reason, to feel comfortable about the people around them.

Those that say any different, well, it just points out ------?

The ones who promote this way of thinking are the ones who have problems.

While it doesn't "make them white GLOs," these GLOs do have a history of being predominantly white. Whether they have a history of excluding members of other colors and races or not (and I believe that most of them did, at one time), all of the NPC and NIC GLO's have historically catered to a vast majority of caucasian men and women and continue to do so. Similarly, the D9 have historically catered to a majority of black men and women. If we are going to call NPHC organizations "black GLO's" it only makes sense to call the NPC and NIC organizations "white GLO's."

FTR, I agree that everyone should join whichever GLO they feel comfortable in and we shouldn't force segregation, but the historical origins are important to the continuing identities of the organizations as well.

While history's implications are definitely important, I was always baffled when individuals I knew and was friends with wouldn't join a Greek organization on campus because it wasn't a traditionally African American sorority. We also had several women decline bids ONLY because KD was not a traditionally "black" GLO. I don't think ANY GLOs should be designated "Black" or "White." It implies racism from either side.

What you (and many others who are not African-American) do not realize is the significance that NPHC orgs play in the African-American community. Most Black freshman have a least a familiarity with NPHC orgs because they've seen them in the community, they have family members or family friends who are members, they've been in someone's youth auxillary or cotillion, or maybe a teacher/mentor/coach is Greek. They've seen these orgs do things for and in the community (both the African-American community and the geographical community) and realize the significance that these orgs play. For the majority of folks who join NPHC orgs, its about helping our community on a regular basis for the rest of your life, not just having fun for your collegiate experience.

*cue someone who comes in and says NPC/NIC is for life too*

Kappa Alpha Psi fraternity was founded as a direct result of black students in early 20th century Indiana being denied access to college organizations. All of the organizations that are predominantly black choose/chose to allow anyone regardless or race or creed to join the org. Does it mean that each organization gets it right 100% of the time. Of course not however it should be highlighted why so called BGLO's are more likely to assimilate into their own culture due to the historical context of having to fend for themselves on predominantly white campuses. Some of our generation of white students are just getting their first crack at interacting with black people.

Poor souls have been fed more negative images than positives. Most blacks have recieved mixed reviews as well but are taught to "deal" with in leiu of a piss poor explanation of it being the way things are and have always been. So that in a nutshell explains the natural explanation of why so called WGLO's and BGLO's don't work together. There is very little history. We have a more open society than other generations and we still miss the mark in social advancement. So this is a reflection on all of us highlighting our inabilities to communicate and work together which is the common theme for all of our orgs being in existence in the first place.

I find this EXTREMELY offensive, because I feel the same way about MY Greek letter organization, although some people might say that it is a "WHITE" GLO. I work in the community with my organization, and consider myself a lifetime member--it was NOT just a sorority for my college years, or a place to party at. For your information, the GLO I am in has FOUR national philanthropies, and numerous links to the community. I served as overall philanthropy chair as well as chair of our annual philanthropy event, and I have to tell you, we worked in the community EVERY weekend. Our members range from former Miss America winners to three star generals to current governors of states. Also, you shouldn't make assumptions about the color of my skin--just so you know, I'm from NY, and work in the Bronx. You have NO IDEA what color my skin could be.

Strange. If they didn't want to join a GLO that wasn't a traditionally "black" one, why were they rushing in the first place? Did NPHC sororities at your campus recruit/intake with the NPC sororities? :confused:

This is beautifully idealistic, and I would love to agree, but there are always going to be people who are more "comfortable" with others of the same color.

That sounds terribly racist, I know, but the fact is that, in this country, people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds often identify culturally better with people of the same background as them. Whether this is because they are perceived similarly by American society, because they often fall into the same socio-economic background, because they have shared cultural experiences, or for a multitude of other reasons, groups of people tend to gravitate towards those of the same race or ethnicity.
That is not to say that they necessarily have a problem with people of other colors (though they might), just that they feel more comfortable with those who have more shared life experiences with them, and race/ethnicity provides a huge shared experience.

That being said, for a caucasian person in the United States today, they are the majority. With exceptions, they will generally be surrounded mostly by other white people and thus not feel as though they are a representative for their group. For black people, asians, hispanics, or any other group to which BGLO's and MGLO's cater, they are not provided that comfort in everyday life, but the ability to go to an HBCU or join a BGLO (for example) allows them that cushion of comfort that white people so often take for granted.
So, while we shouldn't force segregation, equalling out the balance of whites and blacks (and asians, and hispanics) in all GLO's would be counterproductive to one of the main functions of the BGLO.

[QUOTE=GDIfly;1328028]Strange. If they didn't want to join a GLO that wasn't a traditionally "black" one, why were they rushing in the first place? Did NPHC sororities at your campus recruit/intake with the NPC sororities? :confused:

At the school where I went, the only African American sorority that was there left in the mid-90s, and never tried to recolonize. A lot of my friends went through recruitment for the experience, but when it came to joining, some said they didn't want to join because they didn't want to be in a sorority that was not a traditional "Black" GLO. After that, some of the ladies I knew tried to start a chapter of AKA, but were not able to get the appropriate backing.

Thanks for explaining your opinion in such a positive manner, I truly appreciate it! :)

i prefer to mingle with pretty girls

I should probably not bother but...
 

I try not to respond in these threads that touch on race because at the end of the day no one is going to change their minds here anyway...but what alot of the folks on GC that are members of NPC/IFC orgs don't seem to fully grasp is that its a COMPLETELY different experience for us...I knew what sorority I wanted to pledge in middle school....I also knew that you don't "change teams" so to speak....if I had not been chosen by Delta in Spr 02, I would have tried for DELTA in Spr 03, then a graduate chapter for as long as it took until I got DELTA....if the good Lord never made it happen for me, I would have died with no letters...the greeks in my family taught me this among other lessons about the BGLO experience early on....my favorite teacher was a Delta..like someone said we see the D9 orgs doing work in our communities as we grow up...we admire and respect these people and want to join the same orgs...or the orgs that our family members belong to....I attended a school with no NPHC representation for 1 year...I would never participate in a NPC rush, thats just me...the idea of not knowing where I was going to end up baffles me....but I'm not knocking it....why can't it be ok for the BGLOs and the "predominantly" WGLOs (yeah I said it) to be different and therefore needed?

There is nothing saying you are not right.

But why isnt there more HBGLOs on Camupuses?

With the presence there, would it not give the chance to join a HBGLO? If it or they isn't there, then it doesn't does it?

My School has one only HBGLO, while I was there, it had four, two Male and two Female, now, only one Fraternity.:(

So, I want to know why is that?:o

Whose fault is it?:o

Well, there is a lot about each person's individual experience that could potentially make two COMPLETELY different experiences for two girls who are even in the same chapter. So to generalize and say "us" and "them" isn't really productive.

Is what you described typical of a white girl rushing an NPC sorority? No. But I'm sure there have been girls who are legacies to some NPC sorority 3 or 4 times over and feel the same way you do about dying without letters rather than joining a different sorority. Likewise, I'm sure there have also been black girls who would join any of the four NPHC sororities, though they might have their favorite, but will take life as any greek over their favorite sorority.

More excellent points, GDIfly! Piggybacking on this topic, sometimes any PM can feel pressured by family members to only join a certain organization. For instance, my brother later told me he didn't want me to join KD because once upon a time, when he was in Florida, the KDs he met wouldn't "party with him and his brothers, and seemed snotty." Although I like to think I wouldn't, I would most likely want my daughter to join Kappa Delta, although I respect and admire many other GLOs. Back to the topic though--we once rushed a girl who loved our GLO, loved everyone in it, but whose mother wouldn't let her join because it was not a traditionally African American sorority. That just makes me sad, because I know she would really have loved being a part of our chapter, and our national organization, for the rest of her life. Sometimes outside influence is not a positive effect on people with respect to joining a GLO. What is best for you might not be what was best for your brother, cousin, best friend, or even--child.