anna, no sorority can be forced to issue bids. That's a whole other conversation. Membership selection.

I'm sincerely sorry about your experience, and now want to focus on the larger issue. It requires research and thinking and not shooting from the hip.

I never said a sorority can be forced to issue a bid. The whole point was that there was a lot of discrimination going on. But that fine if you want to talk about the larger issue.

Most administrations have decided they can't/won't discourage a PNM from particating in recruitment even when they don't meet membership requirements. Like in the cases of people with sub-par GPAs, they would rather let the PNM go through then be disappointed so the sororities end up looking like the bad people. What drunk people tell you is just that. Drunk babbling. Sororities do not have to give out all the bids they have available. It is a selective process. We don't take anyone just because thy want to join. That would be a club.

Anna, I'm a bit confused on did you get a bid and then advisors moved to block your continuing participation or did you not get a bid at all?

fine but it still doesn't mean that I can't be upset. I wish they had just been honest with me

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out the "I have a friend" story would be about herself. But to the OP, member selection is private and anything you hear about what was said in those meetings can't be trusted. Girls will say a lot to an outsider that will be wrong either in their intent to make the recipient feel better or because the member misunderstood what was happening around her.

And my apologies for not using the most current language.

idk the stories I have heard from everyone are incredibly consistent. Like there are only very small variations

@ the bold: You answered your own question.


Just know that a person's character, reputation, and lifestyle are the 'soft criteria' that are also taken into consideration for membership - whether it is fair or not, it is done.

In this age of 24/7, everything on social media, it is harder to hide who you are these days. Back in my day of joining, it was all word of mouth which may or may not have been true, so it was easy to ignore. Now, not at all when people post everything about their life on the web.

Anna, I'm sorry you had this experience. That must have been hard. Your reception would have been much easier here if you'd been honest from the beginning. I think that the advice given you was bad. I'm not sure where you go to school, but I suspect that you'd have to be at a VERY progressive school on the East coast or in California to get a bid to an NPC at this time. Anywhere else, sororities are still very conservative. None of us likes to see people excluded. We as individual members didn't write the rules regarding membership, and they won't change anytime soon as NPC groups were founded for the betterment of women. Until society at large accepts transgender people, I wouldn't expect membership criteria to change. It is happening much more quickly than I thought as young children are attending school as the opposite sex in many areas with no problems. As those children grow up with friends who know them as their chosen sex, we'll start to see things move.

I can't imagine that a PNM being trans wouldn't be a problem on most campuses during any NPC recruitment. Being trans isn't something that most people understand and it's something that public opinion is just starting to evolve about. That lack of understanding is going to go against a trans person during membership selection.

The Greek Life advisor should have told you that you were eligible to participate and that you were eligible to get a bid, but that it would be very tough to get a bid, because people don't understand the trans thing.

You may be the best PNM who ever walked through a chapter's doors and most people aren't going to understand it. That's where the general public is on trans issues right now. Sorry. It sucks. It's not fair.

(And can we stop talking about the state of people's genitals? Please. I don't have to whip mine out to prove that I'm a woman and trans people shouldn't have to whip theirs out, either.)

I would hope that your friends would have more loyalty to you than to people that they have never met on the internet who happen to be fellow sorority members, also. :)

Thank you for being honest about your situation. I hate that this has happened to you. It sounds to me that you not only had the transgender issue to deal with insofar as getting a bid but also your upperclassman status to overcome.

It is TOUGH for seniors to get a bid, even in informal recruitment, even when they are perfect. The fact of the matter is that sororities usually want to give bids to women who are going to be around for a while. Getting rejected from something that you want hurts.

Well I never planned on tell you I am trans. I got outed by some random person whose behavior frankly feels stalkerish. She called me out by name in a private message (how she knows who I am is beyond me). I guess the hardest part about this all is that while you are right. Transgender people will have it better in 20 years from now. The reality is I'm still quite bitter about it. I will have been denied so many opportunities in life. It feels like as trans you need to be perfect in order to be adequate even in just normal social situations like church.

Well I wasn't actually a senior, I was a junior because I had two years left but yeah

Which probably actually speaks to the accuracy of the info people gave me. Because if she could guess who I was by the story alone, it kind of says volumes about what happened

Just a guess, but do you use the user name you're posting with here in other places online?

Of course, it could be someone involved with your campus, but usually, people are able to track others when they always use the same user name for their online presence.

I guess it also was important to me because all my step sisters are in sororities. So it was kind of expected of me to do. I was kind of a disappointment when I didn't get in.

Anna, I don't even know where to begin re: the ideas you have about sorority life. Believe me, if a sorority has 40 bids to give out in informal recruitment, they are in BIG trouble. They only gave out 9 of those? Here comes national to jerk their charter.

And a Greek Life adviser can't tell you that all the nationals said you could get a bid. I huugely doubt that any of them would go out on a limb and say that and it wouldn't be true anyway. A Greek Life adviser may not speak for the individual groups.

What's with the line "as long as you get a bid, the odds of you getting in are very high"? It's the same thing. Getting a bid=getting in.

You think you were kept out because of discrimination? Maybe, maybe not but we have many threads on GC about how it's practically impossible to get a bid as a senior. Even juniors are heavily cut on many campuses.

And I am still confused about your assertion that you know that non-Greeks at big campuses have no chance at a social life (due to what friends there told you) and that Greeks are denying trans people the opportunity to be involved on campus. So untrue.

This thread wins the award for the most disconnected thread in 14 years on Greekchat. :mad:

no I rarely use this user name actually

It sucks. At least you're making it better for the people who come after you. You're not hiding and you're not closeted and the people who come after you will owe you a huge debt of thanks because by refusing to hide, you're opening the way for them.

I honestly think a fraternity would have a harder time accepting a trans member than a sorority.

Trying not to talk about whipping out genitals here, but I think there are various ways guys like to prove how macho they are, and whipping out their member is one of them. I imagine if a F-> M trans was at a drunk fraternity party, and it was revealed that he is really a she, I don't think that would end well....

anna, this really is something that you need to seek support from in another venue - not a message board. That's my opinion. From what you have posted, you're very much upset and (self-stated) bitter. Those are issues that should be addressed elsewhere.

There are so many reasons that a PNM does not get a bid. We weren't there. We don't know. Even if we did, we wouldn't say, because membership selection is private.

Well I said that once about the campuses where greek life is big based on things my friends have told me (I actually am on a campus where involvement is very low). and yes that is what I was told, maybe she didn't have the authority or right to tell me that but she did. I was a PNM who didn't know better. And yeah I know they are in big trouble but that was kind of the point. That if they didn't give me a bid when they were that big of trouble it was out of spite more than anything

Yeah, life can suck. When you aren't "normal" that a group is expecting, you may not have all the same experiences of everyone else. BUT like we tell every other PNM that comes to GC upset over not getting a bid, you CAN have a great college experience without sorority life. As much as fraternal bonds are great, your friendships can be as strong made through other on campus activities. We all have things in life that we are rejected from. You are not being forced to live a life that you don't want. I'm sorry not all doors are open to you, but that's life. We all have some doors that are closed to us. Bitterness is fine. I'm sure I would be in the same boat. Just don't miss out on too much as you have your pity party. The best revenge is to have a great time!

I mean I didn't come on here for support, I came on here for understanding. It kind of became a support thing tho. I didn't really intend for that to happen

Maybe they didn't want to take on the battle of fighting for trans acceptance when they were already in trouble numbers-wise. That's not spite, it's fear.

When I say understanding I mean I personally wanted to understand it

I mean I would agree with you about the fear thing if it wasn't for the incredibly consistent stories I have been told, thats all

They are presenting a united front.

Idk, these include the friends of mine and the drunken babble. That's a pretty impressive united front if it's true

I think for your peace of mind, stop asking "Why?" It's not worth it. It isn't worth it for biologically female women who aren't offered bids either. If you read recruitment stories on GC, you will see that asking ALWAYS leads to heartache. The stories you hear are hearsay, one sided and NEVER provide a full picture of why you did not receive a bid. Realize that it is unlikely that an entire group voted against you. Some of the groups very well may have decided you were ineligible for membership. You would need strong backing for a group to go head to head against their alumnae or HQ if they knew and said no. What you need to understand is that the institution of sororities is still too conservative to accept a MtoF transgender woman. It's not an indictment of you as a person but of society in general. Period.

Anna, just a tip. You can edit your posts to form more coherent paragraphs. I suspect you're posting from a smart phone because it's coming across a bit "text message".

Yeah I am "texting" as it were.

I think I'm gonna leave this convo now and really GC all together more or less. I got what I came here looking for, answers. I hope you guys continue talking about this on your own. I think it's an important topic ad the only way it will get better is by an open dialogue. I just hope sororitysock doesn't come looking for me on campus or anything. The level of creepy she had displayed already is really unsettling. Thank you all for being so nice to me! I hope things really do change one day

It sucks that your friend's job is the only thing holding her back from surgery, if that's what she wants. On the other hand, if she's who I think she is, I can see where it would be hard to give up a gig that lucrative.

There are many reasons someone could be "cut" from recruitment, informal or formal - grades, personality, fit, class year, partying...a lot of things impact membership selection.

Without divulging anything that would reveal the person or year, I had a friend that I brought to an informal recruitment event when I was an undergrad. I LOVED her, and thought she was a perfect fit for our sorority - good grades, funny as could be, adorable, got along with a bunch of the girls. She seemed to get along great with many of the women at the party, but....unbeknownst to me (or her, really, because she was drunk and it was freshman year) she had PUNCHED one of the other members in the face at a party. Another member had been a floormate of hers freshman year, and she had done some shady things with the member's belongings and a garbage chute. My friend didn't end up getting a bid. Was I upset? Yes. But I also understood that allowing her in would have put my initiated sisters in an awkward place. But she found her home elsewhere.

As for the larger question, I think in the next 5-10 years groups will need to have some kind of policy in place - and I think that, as general opinion evolves, so will Greek life policies. I'm of the opinion that if the person identifies as female, we should honor the identification/pronouns.

^^^ That. It was Title IX that caused the fraternities to get rid of their little sister groups because they would lose their exemption. And Title IX says "sex", not "gender". Sororities and fraternities are not the only organizations trying to figure out how to manage the issues that arise. Dorms sometimes now have transgender floors and unisex community bathrooms (which I would have found absolutely HORRIFYING at that age).

The NCAA has formulated this criteria for participation in sports and it isn't that different from what we are saying here. I tried to cut and paste but I can't - it's on page 13. It essentially says that if not medically transitioning, athletes have to compete on the team in accordance with their assigned birth gender.
http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/fi...2011_Final.pdf

Thank you for the explanation! I was really mystified by the emphasis on full transition from some posters.

Medically transitioning doesn't mean surgically. It means hormonally. That is all the NCAA cares about because the hormonal status of an athlete will effect their abilities on the field/court. They don't really care what is between the players legs.

Been reading and researching. "Sex" =/= "Gender". Important distinction. More to learn.

From things I've learned over the years, through news programming and documentaries, I knew that sex and gender aren't equal. In the same vain that a "cross dresser" isn't necessarily a transgender. Then you get into the sexuality aspect. Such as a biological male who is a transgender female but dates women.

Can make your head swim to think of all the variations.