I agree with you, though the economy of PNMs in these huge SEC recruitments is an abundant supply of leaders and scholars and young women of high character.

There really is no demand for increased numbers or qualifications -- if there was, GLOs might be motivated to cast a wider net. As it is, fish jump in their boats.

That is wonderful. All of our GLOs are awesome with fish jumping in our boats. :)

The difference is some GLOs (or chapters of GLOs) have expressed interest in widening the net and increasing diversity. What DeltaBetaBaby said pertains to those GLOs. There is a difference between nonmembers telling GLOs they need diversity versus members, themselves, claiming their GLO needs diversity. This thread is about the latter.

If I am to use this discussion as research -- I find the conclusions regarding how white people feel to be either surprising, since I am white, or amazingly clairvoyant, if you are not:

The topic of this thread is Diversity in the SEC. If this issue actually is important to you (beyond an opportunity to grandstand), it doesn't make sense to whack members of the target audience who are in a position to advocate for change.

The boats in the SEC runneth over with fish. You are free to judge that reality however you wish.


This thread has already slammed the door on some of the potential latter.

Which GLOs are being proactive in increasing diversity? I'm interested in seeing what these GLOs are doing.

That is completely up to you.

No, as I have said a couple of times in this thread, diversity in the SEC is not important to me. As I have also said a couple of times in this thread, my posts are not about diversity in the SEC but about a larger point that is often missed.

I feel like there is a joke or play on words that I am missing here. Either that or I am baffled as to why you think I would judge that reality.

If you are saying that some people will abandon the issue of diversity in the SEC because of a GC thread, those people are easily deterred fools who never wanted diversity. They wanted a quick and easy fix that required minimal effort, minimal discomfort, and minimal inconvenience. Those people are indicative of what some of us have been saying in this thread.

That's not what I said . . .though you continue to be clairvoyant enough to proclaim what other people think, feel, and want.

But not observant enough to realize you lost your audience.

Or you missed a generalization used to make a larger point.

I am very observant which is why I typed what I posted in this thread. This was never "my audience" and you should not assume that every reader has been lost. As with other GC threads, some people hate it, some people are apathetic or ignoring it, some people like it, and some people love it. Your time would be better spent researching the answers to your previous questions.

Oh I see, I thought we were discussing diversity in the SEC.

You certainly have demonstrated a point though. Someone else's.

Some of you were discussing diversity in the SEC. Some of us were addressing a larger issue. Not everyone is oblivious about the points being made so do not make yourself the spokesperson for some GCers.

Rather than amusing me, I recommend you take back the thread and "your audience". Some of you do quite well when it comes to other GC topics but are easily distressed and silenced with any mention of race and diversity. That is actually evidence of what some of us are saying in this thread. The ability of most whites to quickly take off their "race hat" at any hint of inconvenience. If you have comments you want to make and questions you want answered, govern yourselves accordingly and make it happen. A thread started by NPHCers would certainly not be derailed and NPHCers silenced by some outspoken and opinionated non-NPHCers.

Actually, I think that the audience got bored by the rhetoric. Recruitment is going on and we have more entertaining things to do.

Only some of the audience.

Thus is the nature of whiteness and "race only when it is convenient, entertaining, and worth acknowledging."

So those of you who are easily lost and cannot see how these pages addressed diversity in the SEC: Long story short, no, it is not happening at a larger scale for many years to come. The people who want diversity in the SEC need to first unpack the invisible knapsack. Well, they first need to get more whites to acknowledge there even is an invisible knapsack.

No Phil, you yacked your butt off and the eyes of GreekChat collectively glazed over. This thread has pretty much lost its audience; next time, you could tone it down.

I see what you mean. :rolleyes:

I hadn't been following this thread after it went to the 2nd page. But seeing it expand to 7 pages just piqued my curiosity.

I did not intend to bring this up because I do find it very snide of me to do so; however in my experience any one continuing to lord and lecture beyond a certain point has a greater motive than simply education.

I am also a bit confused on your stance as to the purpose of diversity. When you yourself do not want your own GLO to be racially diverse?

This is anecdotal as it has been quite a few years since it occured. When I was on our campus' Greek Diversity Encouragement Council. I remember none of the NPHC groups wanted to take part in it. It was as if they preferred being themselves racially segregated yet at the same time point out about the 'white' dominance of IFC and NPC glos. I also remember how we made a point that the traditionally NPC/IFC Songfest philanthropy event was open to NPHC groups (as well as other groups like Dorm/Residential Orgs) but I think only Alpha Phi Alpha took up the offer, and it only happened once. And on top of that I remember various Greek town hall-stye meetings where NPHC members were invited, as well as the other greek councils, their participation was minimal.

No.

Greekchat has silent lurkers and people who both agree and disagree for every thread. Yet when it comes to race and diversity threads, some of you are so cowardly that you pretend as though everyone feels as you do and a consensus has been reached. I would love for you all to take this "either this or that" stance with other GC threads.

I will keep doing what I do. You had a post pages ago that essentially stated you were done with the discussion. You know the routine.

Drone on!

Yes, hide behind me and use me as a tool of escape.

Two interesting things:

1) No one has asked me, as the OP, what I meant/intended by the question

and

2) At least one person has admitted to purposely not answering the questions but providing answers to questions which were not asked.

Seems counterproductive to me.

So what did you mean by posting the thread?

There was this question in the first reply to your post

I don't know what "we" were talking about...only what "I" was talking about.

I'm not sure that it's relevant any longer! This thread had gotten way too difficult to deal with as some have admittedly gone afield on purpose. I think I'll just do like Dr. King, decide to stick with love as hate is too great a burden to bear.

:) Did you need people to beg you or wait for you to explain what you meant? GC threads sometimes go on even without the OP because people see a general topic(s). Why should this thread be different? Every GC thread contains comments that may or may not directly or indirectly pertain to the OP. LOL.

LOL. People claim Eleanor Roosevelt like she was setting it off on the yard.

There was a white Delta on GC for a while.

I don't think the SEC wants more diversity as a goal. I remember seeing black rushees at UF back in the early 90s. This was before the boom in attendance due to the National Championships and Bright Futures, but back then they were relegated to a few "bottom-tier" chapters. I suspected even then that they were more interested in being NPC than adding diversity to their chapters, LOL.

I simply said it was "interesting." Perhaps it was not "interesting" to you - or others.

"One's milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. One would teach you, but one would have to charge."

http://www.firstladies.org/biographi...rRoosevelt.jpg

LOL. Roosevelt was doing hand signs by the plot.

Are you saying there is a larger goal? :)

This thread has come full circle. You win. LOL.

Eleanor Roosevelt's facial expression says "you want to be down with MY sorority?! Kick my greeting! Now go feed the homeless miners! Do what you feel in your heart to be right--for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't."

As a mom who raised 4 daughters, all members of an NPC, and two of those daughters who are looking to adopt, and both are totally welcoming to a child in need, the military lifestyle is different. To quote a song, "red and yellow, black and white" plus we learned about Intuits and Eskimos during a tour in Alaska, the military lifestyle is different.

As I stated in another recent thread about NPHC participation, understand that the priorities for NPHC orgs are not the same for NPC/IFC orgs.

NPHC orgs are first and foremost community-service based. So social events like songfests are just not top priority.

Undergradute NPHC chapters are under direct supervision from their sponsoring graduate / alumnae chapter. For example, I am a member of the Gamma Sigma graduate chapter. My graduate chapter advises three undergrad chapters: 1) TAMU, 2) Sam Houston State, and 3) UH Central Campus.

Each undergraduate chapter is expected to attend certain events as outlined by the sponsoring grad chapter. Thus, each undergrad member is expected to attend those events, meetings, and conferences of the organization.

I will use my org as an example. For this academic year, we expect the members of our undergraduate chapters to attend an Area meeting, our fall fundraiser in November, our fundraiser in Feb / March, and the Regional meeting next Spring semester. And, if it is a Boule' year, they also have to attend Boule'.

So, NPHC undergraduate chapters adhere to the policies of their sponsoring grad chapter, and national organization first. Any other events on campus that are not in direct alignment with the NPHC org's policies are not high on the campus chapter's list of things to do.

LOL. Did she quote "Jesus loves the little children"?

If only humans were so simplistic.

What does an Alaskan tour featuring Intuits and Eskimos have to do with the military being different and/or the issue of racial, ethnic, and cultural diversity?

I think she was saying that the military experience isn't representative of the whole, as someone earlier was trying to allude to.

Can everyone at least agree that it's "Inuit"? ;)

I didn't think TNAuburnMom was claiming it to be representative of the whole. I thought TNAuburn was saying the military is different as though demographics and inequalities have no bearing.

Yes, ma'am. :( I apologize to the Inuit.

Things to consider
 

Not to give excuses, but here are some things to consider.
1. Numbers: Chapters are not generally having lines of 100+. The Delta chapter at my UG had 13 members at one point, but most of the time there was less. If a chapter has 7 members, it's a different ball game. The entire NPC chapter will not have to participate in a "Songfest," while a 7 member NPHC chapter would have to participate, not everyone wants to make that commitment. Anytime a small chapter makes a commitment, it has to be considered that ALL members would want to do it.

2. Commitments: Many members of NPHC chapters are also involved in other organizations. Many Black Student Unions have Greeks as board/committee members. This along with NPHC boards and orgs like NAACP, Greek Service Orgs, Bible Studies, Athletic Teams, Dance Teams, Political Orgs, etc. So if the 7 member NPHC chapter has 4 members on other boards, most likely the other 3 members are supporting those organizations as well. Adding more meetings, along with school and work is a bit much. I knew one Zeta who was on the Black Student Union board, NPHC board as well as her own chapter board. That's 4 meetings (Black student Union has exec board and general meetings) that she was running to, along with programs in those orgs.

I have a very close friend who is Black and a member if a IFC frat. He was also president of our Black Student Union and on the board for the College Democrats. He was worn out, so he couldn't always participate in every event. He had tons of brothers who could attend on his behalf, that isn't always an option for NPHC orgs.

3. National mandates: Most NPHC chapters have a full slate of national and regional programs that they have to participate. Schedules get pretty packed with these programs, meetings, service projects, etc. This isn't adding the social events, such as step shows, talent shows, fashion shows, parties, etc, which are often planned months in advance. We're not even adding factors like intake, or going to things other NPHC chapters are holding at nearby universities.

I know programs like Songfest require many months of planning and resources. They do it at my university as well. They have a lot of elaborate themes, costumes, sets, etc. But NPC/IFC groups know it is coming because it is discussed at their meetings constantly. Plus since it is done yearly, it's common knowledge to be prepared for the program. I'm curious to ask how much time in advance the non-NPC/IFC orgs were given to start working on something for Songfest. At my university it is a competition, so you have to put your best foot forward!

And maybe it is on a date when NPHC orgs have a program/meeting. I remember when my university hosted a stepshow and the NPC/IFC orgs were invited to attend. There were very few in attendance and initially it was disappointing, but then people found out some NPC/IFC orgs had a function at the same time. It shouldn't be assumed that NPHC members are just sitting on their behinds. Sometimes it is just not a priority.

Sorry for the novel. :rolleyes:

"Songfest is one of the oldest and largest collegiate musical traditions in the country. It was started in the mid 1950s by two USC sophomores to help unify a diverse post WWII student body. Various student groups create a five-minute musical skit that encompasses the year’s theme, using original music or re-writing lyrics to popular songs.

Songfest involves more than 600 USC students and is attended by over 1,500 students, parents, and friends. It brings together residence halls, fraternities and sororities, the USC Marching Band, the USC Song Leaders, the Trojan Dance Force and various other campus organizations.

All the money raised from Songfest goes to benefit Troy Camp."

"Songfest is USC’s largest philanthropic event put on by students, as well as one of the oldest and largest collegiate musical traditions in the country. The musical show features numerous student organizations that compete against each other. The competition consists of creating and performing an extensive musical skit which encompasses the overall Songfest theme.

In addition to the themed skits, the show includes performances by some of USC’s finest dance groups and a cappella troupes."

This is true; this describes the DEC's inception:

"The 24-year-old junior founded the program in fall, 1989, in an attempt to raise racial consciousness on Fraternity Row; the university officially adopted his program last year. Each fraternity and sorority at USC has been asked to appoint a race-relations chairperson to look out for minority pledges, a talk on race relations is given at each house every semester and if racial incidents occur at any of the houses, Diversity Encouragement sends speakers to sort things out.

Said Ferguson: "The reason I targeted the Greek system is because they are a captive audience. They meet in their houses every Monday night. (The university) deals with racism through (the Office of) Student Conduct, but even that was on an individual level and is after the fact. . . . They're not dealing with preventive work."

And from a time contemporary to my involvement:

"The Diversity Encouragement Council, founded in 1990, meets every week,
[discussing] diversity issues ranging from homophobia to the
treatment of people of color at parties...

The program has been a model used by other universities in Southern
California...

Although racial diversity still leaves much to be desired, the organizations are thriving in other areas, such as religious diversity and economic diversity."

And for anyone interested; in 2004:

"The 18 fraternities and 10 sororities that are represented the Panhellenic and Interfraternity councils have become more diverse over the past 10 years, as the percentage of white students has decreased from 88 percent to 76.3 percent"

Not being involved with the foundation of an organization shouldn't be a barrier to future involvement for the organization to evolve/develop.

Yes that is its main purpose, to benefit NPC/NIC organization but if the issue of diversity in the general population should involve everyone across all interests, why should it be different within a campus greek community?

I did not mean to imply that NPHC (or for that matter AGC, MGC or PFC organizations) should dedicate their own time. However, if the NPC/NIC organizations on our campus want to learn how to reach out/engage/have dialogue with various communities of the student body, surely we should be speaking to student leaders within those communities.

This is a fair point. My personal opinion is that I see the NPHC as not diverse (and in just terms or race/ethnicity) either. While I don't expect the NPHC to fix the NPC/NIC diversity problem, I would hope they would be interested in the value of helping within the greater context of diversity education in the general student population.

Based on this post I would hope at least DrPhil would agree with this opinion

THIS. My chapter participated in tons of other groups' softball games and basketball tournaments and talent shows, all philanthropic fundraisers. When I was philanthropy chair for a chapter of over 100 women, I was scrambling to get women to do all of these things, even considering the fact that probably one/person/semester would have been enough.

As I understand it, the NPHC groups have service events that are open to the public. Why aren't the NPC members just going to those events, if they are concerned about Greek Unity or whatever?

I must admit that in my ignorance I just did not consider this. And in hindsight NPHC members may already be very involved among the various groups performing

"Songfest involves more than 600 USC students and is attended by over 1,500 students, parents, and friends. It brings together residence halls, fraternities and sororities, the USC Marching Band, the USC Song Leaders, the Trojan Dance Force and various other campus organizations."

My eyes have not glazed over at all.

Many good points have been raised in this thread—by you, by DrPhil and by others. The problem is that not everyone is talking about the same thing, so responses are couched in terms of what people think they're hearing or expect to hear, not what others are actually saying.

And seriously, anyone who hadn't caught on by now that when DrPhil "responds" to someone, she often isn't as much responding to that specific point as using it as a springboard to make a broader point—fairly standard among academics, in my experience—is either new or just not paying attention.


Actually, I think it's anything but counter-productive. It highlights that the majority may perceive and define what constitutes "diversity" quite differently from how members of minority groups might perceive and define it. Understanding that, and attempting to see what diversity might mean and look like from others' perspectives, is essential for any meaningful conversation about diversity.

Well then I am really glad that I feel my education is more complete

Nor does the NPHC (in general) typically claim diversity or to be seeking diversity. That is the difference between the NPHC (in general) as compared to some NPC and some NIC. Some NPC and some NIC claim they have no idea how their membership became majority white and they are now seeking diversity without first acknowledging how it became non-diverse in the first place.

I do not think the NPHC should assist NPC and NIC with diversity. NPC-NIC boasts plenty of resources and have plenty of fish jumping in your boats. :) You can probably handle this without needing an official seal of approval from the NPHC. I do, however, recall back when I was in college and some of the Black students (NPHC members and non-members) frequented some NPC-NIC events. We also invited NPC-NIC to our events. Other than our few white friends showing up, NPC-NIC members never showed up. That is absolutely fine because, as has been said on GC many times, none of us are obligated to show up. None of us are obligated to even care.

The problem is when people suddenly pretend they are never invited or that they are perplexed as to how outreach across races, ethnicities, and cultures should happen. It is also a problem when certain groups of people who have been ignoring minorities for years (under the guise of "we don't see race") claim they now need diversity training and an official seal of approval from racial and ethnic minorities. :) Some racial and ethnic minorities prefer when such outreach is sincere as opposed to being contacted only when we are "needed" to accomplish some task for the white people. I see NPC-NIC racial and ethnic diversity as another task that can be accomplished if the NPC-NIC really care and are willing to put forth the hard work. You all pay such attention to details and accomplish so many tasks on any given day. Therefore, there is no need to pretend you are suddenly clueless, baffled, and void of resources (when some people tell you "no" you have always been able to find some people who will tell you "yes"). :)

You omitted the last sentences of that post. The last sentences are why I do not agree with that opinion. :)