I don't disagree. I think it's entertaining sometimes watching us swim against the tide.

: D

The problem is that Panhellenic (the entity) cannot say that recs are recommended, or even required, as they are NOT required to take place in rush (a Panhellenic event). However, to actually receive a bid to the participating partners, you need one.

Analogy: A mall cannot disallow you from walking into the mall without cash, checks or a credit card. However, to buy anything at any of the stores in the mall, you will need one of those things.

Re: the Alabama confusion.
I believe the idea behind this is that some PNMs simply cannot find recs for certain groups. There is no alumnae panhellenic in their area to help.
They can send their resume stuff to the chapter so they have more complete info and/or can share it with an alum from that girl's hometown.
....which makes no sense, since chapters have all that info when they register for recruitment.

I would like to know if chapters actually look at unsolicited resume/transcript/photo information, especially at those colleges with mega-recruitments, and lots of recommendations to work their way through.

Good analogies today: swimming against the tide, and the mall/shopping w/o money. I sometimes wonder if some folks are so adamant about believing that recommendations are not needed because it frees them from having to put forth the effort to find them?

Conversations with moms
 

ME: "Oh, your daughter is going to Texas State? I'd be happy to help get her recommendations."

MOM - "Oh, her sister is an Alpha Delta Pi, so she's going to pledge them. They have to give her a bid. She doesn't need any others."

ME: :(

When we dropped our daughter off at college last fall, we attended two parent welcome meetings. One mom specifically asked the student life panel about recommendation letters for sororities. One (male) Dean specifically said, "For those of you used to hearing about SEC recruitment, relax. Your daughter's friends have probably been spending a lot of time gathering them. You don't need to worry about that here. The sororities won't even look at them."

That last sentence is just flat out wrong, and I found it rather troubling that he would presume to share what the various groups do or don't consider during membership selection. You can imagine how badly I wanted to raise my hand and say something. I didn't, and I didn't even want to post it until my daughter was through recruitment. Her recs had already been sent in by that point, and several rec writers had been thanked, including the alumna of the sorority she eventually joined.

I'd have a real hard time not saying "good luck with that."

Oh my gosh, I felt the same way when attending the Greek Life info. sessions at my daughter's freshman orientation. The Panhellenic Recruitment VP stood on the stage and told the audience that recommendations had to come from alumnae of the chapters at that school. I mentioned to the lady I was sitting next to that that was incorrect and she tried to get me to correct the girl, but i wouldn't dare, for fear that it would impact my daughter's recruitment. I was flabbergasted that the recruitment VP was so ill-informed.

And SWTexasBelle, I had a similar experience with a man whose younger sister was supposed to rush at Bama. I offered to write a rec. for her and he informed me that that would not be necessary since his grandmother, mother and sister had all been XYZs at Bama and therefore his baby sister would be also :eek: I was amused that when rush came around I did not find her name on the bid list to any of the sororities at Bama, nor the next year or the year after that!

My friends daughter, descended from Mobile Mardi Gras Royalty for several generations and her self a mardi gras court noble, got cut from all but one of her legacy chapters at Bama (she originally had 3 in contention.) Legacies are a dime a dozen there at the older Bama chapters. I wrote her Theta letter of reference and she preffed at Theta and one other newer chapter, as well as her grandmother's chapter (legacy.) They must have truly fallen in love with her, and she would be a super asset to any Bama chapter.

Did she accept a bid?

Yes, to her grandmother's chapter, though I was told Theta was a close second. Her Mom was an alumna of the alleged top chapter at Bama, and went nuts when the that one and a second legacy chapters dropped her daughter. I had to talk her down GC style ;)

I think a lot of the downplaying of recs is an attempt to make rush seem like less of an old-girl-network than it is and infuse new blood into the system...when, of course, it achieves the exact opposite.

This is also from the U of A Panhellenic page on Letters of Recommendation:

Along with suggesting that it is the responsibility of the chapters to secure recommendations, this might lead a PNM to believe that chapters routinely seek recs on PNMs who send their resume directly to the chapter. Considering the mountain of recs membership chairs are already managing, I am skeptical that this happens with any regularity at all.

It seems to me that a PNM sending info to a chapter on her own might cause her to stand out -- but not in a good way. I'd be interested in other's opinions.

For instance, a mom (not Greek) whose daughter I wrote a rec for said, when I asked how gathering recs for other chapters was progressing, that her daughter had recs for the chapters she was interested in. I don't think she meant this to be condescending to other chapters -- she just didn't know and figured her daughter had recs to chapters where she knew someone. Besides, the other chapters will just secure recs if interested, right?

And the Panhellenic page, as an "official" source of info, doesn't help with this when it contains conflicting information.

I'm sure that a lot of what is "customary" in huge SEC recruitments seems silly to people who have no history with this process, and that plenty of girls go through with recs that are not really personal recommendations.

However, if one chooses to engage the process, it is a good idea to maximize options in advance by doing everything possible to play the game well. Some girls do pledge chapters without (knowingly) securing a rec in advance, but this isn't something I would leave to chance in such a huge recruitment. The first time through recruitment is usually the best opportunity.

.

Because when you're offered a job you don't want, you can turn it down and say that you're interested in another position.

Or if a friend invites you over to their house, you can tell them you can't come over because you're going to dinner with your sister.

Because, in high school, if you're invited to join a club or a group, it's not considered insulting to tell them that you don't want to join them because of *insert reason here*.

I'm not attempting to argue that it's proper Rush etiquette. I am just trying to point out, though, that sometimes people make mistakes due to ignorance. There's no need to call any girl stupid.

Ignorant is curable. Stupid is not.

Ignorant doesn't even begin to describe where we stood when my beloved granddaughter went through recruitment. 'Nuf said. Anything we knew, we learned from my lurking on GC, and I definitely didn't start lurking soon enough.

She had an incredible recruitment counselor, who she obviously paid close attention to, and she made it all on her own. That's why I am so grateful, (and NOW autocorrect won't let me misspell it!!).

I posted this in another thread, but I am still so dumbstruck by it that I'm posting it again.

This is from the 2013 Florida State recruitment guide:

Is a Recommendation Necessary for my Student to Get a Bid?
No! Recommendation letters are not required to receive a bid, and you will not in any way be penalized if a letter or form is not submitted on your behalf.

That goes so far beyond "you don't technically need recs to participate in recruitment." To me, this is membership selection and should NOT be discussed by Panhellenic. With brochures like that, it is no wonder PNMs and parents are ignorant of the realities.

I wonder if this is an unconscious and uncoordinated effort to curtail recs because they have largely lost their value in modern recruitment. 99% of the recs you receive are info-recs, anyway. Campus Panhellenics and NPC can't dictate membership selection, but it might be worth opening the dialogue amongst NPC groups to reconsider their valuation of what amounts to a heap of paperwork.

That may be the case where you are, but recs are still very important here in Mordor. They are especially important when trying to sort through 1200 women. Even an info-only rec from an outside alum means that the girl is probably more serious about recruitment and interested in your chapter.

Greek Life additions to the manual like this may possibly be an effort to try and make it more egalitarian in the bid selection process where someone who is not a legacy or who is first-generation college student could (in theory) have an equal shot at any group. In fact, it has the opposite effect as without rec letters invitations will tend to rely on women in the chapter who already have a relationship with the PNM. Hence, women from the same towns or same high schools will be more likely to "clump" together in some chapters.

Sorry if this has been posted (I missed it), but how about this from Auburn's website:

"In 1992, the National Panhellenic Conference passed a resolution addressing letters of recommendation. The resolution, in part, states: "The responsibility of providing letters of recommendation for potential members rests with the members of NPC fraternities and recruitment information distributed through College and Alumnae Panhellenics shall contain nothing that infers letters of recommendation must be secured by the potential member." Each of the sixteen sororities at Auburn that participate in Fall Formal Recruitment is a member of the National Panhellenic Conference and is bound by this resolution" (I am adding here that Auburn actually has 17 sororities. This page apparently hasn't been updated :), but is the page you're taken to when in the 2013 recruitment section and click on the link about recs.)

https://fp.auburn.edu/greek/recommendations.htm

I knew about this NPC rule, but wonder how many sororities conducting recruitments for 1500 or more PNMs have the time to secure recs. However, the specific statement recruitment information distributed through College and Alumnae Panhellenics shall contain nothing that infers letters of recommendation must be secured by the potential member may explain the position we're seeing on so many school Panhellenic sites where it has long been held that recs are mandatory. To say anything differently would be an NPC violation.

So -- how do we handle this? I still tell PNMs to GET RECS when going into these competitive recruitments. I have not seen anything valid to assure me that they have lost their importance...but I very much second adpiuf's suggestion about opening up dialogue with NPC groups about it. I am hearing from PNMs and parents about conflicting advice, including that SEC sorority women have told them recs are not needed, that they are not even looked at and that they mean nothing coming from alumnae who don't know the PNM personally...the idea seems to be that most recs come from avid "rec-writers" just shootin' 'em out the door.

Info varies depending on the school, though. Other PNMs/parents are still hearing that 2nd round won't happen without recs. Rec girls of mine who went through SEC rush just last year told me that, as the days progressed, it became very obvious their recs had been looked at. They were clued in when they were introduced to certain members who said, "We saw from one of your rec providers that you...whatever she did." At Tennessee's Panhellenic site, each sorority states how many recs are needed, and even the ones that say they aren't required still say they are recommended. The Ole Miss site says they are helpful in the recruitment process. Last year, they flat-out said they were often a tool for "managing the numbers" in large recruitments.

For now, I would say don't think about going into a competitive recruitment without them, no matter what the Panhellenic page says or what word on the street for your specific school is. But...I can sure see where they are extreme paperwork for sororities (imagine all 2000-plus Bama PNMs sending in 2-3 recs each. Yikes.) AND, if the perception is that most recs are coming from random alumnae just pulling from a resume, then yes, I can see where they carry less and less weight.

Let's talk.

Sorry, just deleted a double post.

Note: There are 17 sororities at Auburn. I guess they haven't updated that since Theta recolonized?

Ha, I guess not on that page! I checked the main page and it says 17. That page is the first hit that comes up when you google Auburn Panhellenic + recommendations.

I did go to back and accessed their rec info through the main page -- guess where it took me? Same place with 16 sororities. :)

From Auburn's Panhellenic page:

This is much like saying that a PNM does not have to exhibit proper hygiene, manners, etc when going through Recruitment. It's necessary, but they're not going to mandate them for fear of sounding elitist. The trouble is in the interpretation: they say you don't need recs but omigosh, are you messed up without them!

I certainly didn't go through SEC Recruitment, but we all knew that some behaviors and attire would guarantee not receiving a bid!

Me likey this quote. :)

That Auburn thing kind of sounds like when in Congress they stated that the Mafia doesn't exist and then spent ookabillion hours discussing how to deal with the Mafia (if it did exist)(which, ya know, it doesn't)(no, not at all).

And that FSU thing is way beyond, and I really want someone to submit it to their national HQ and pitch a bitch saying it divulges confidential membership selection procedures.

honey and 33, I don't get that interpretation at all from the quote honey posted.

Instead, I understand it to say (paraphrasing) the PNM is not responsible for getting the rec form to the people writing her rec(s); and that the Greek Life Office, while it doesn't have the individual sorority rec forms, can help the rec writer to get the correct form. I don't interpret it to say that recs aren't necessary; it starts by saying the PNM "can seek out" recs (which is a very interesting indirect way of saying "get them" IMO).

I have never had a PNM give me a Theta rec form to fill out. It's on our website and it's my responsibility to fill out the form and submit it correctly.

Does that make more sense?

Infinitely! I wouldn't dream of giving a form to a PNM, either. It's my understanding that they're part of Membership Selection, and should NOT be given to a PNM.

Here's what Ole Miss Panhellenic has to say online in their new Recruitment FAQ about recs:

What is a letter of recommendation? Do I really need one?

• - A recommendation is a personal letter of reference written by an alumnae member of a sorority to introduce a Potential New Member to her sorority. In the recommendation, the alumnae will write about your activities and talents so the sorority can get acquainted with you before recruitment begins.
• - Recommendation letters are not required to go through recruitment. They are helpful in the recruitment process. You may send more than one letter of recommendation if you wish.
• - DO NOT include transcripts or test scores with your recommendation letters. Sororities will receive your overall GPA before recruitment begins, therefore transcripts are not necessary. This includes not sending it to local Alumnae Panhellenic Associations or the sorority.

I don't care.
When giving material to an alum to write a rec, INCLUDE A TRANSCRIPT.

I'm a little late to this thread (new baby will do that to you...) but I have noticed this trend in the past year or so. The School Class of 2017 Facebook page is rife with posts about "What sorority are you rushing? I'm rushing XYZ!" or "I know which sorority I want!" and they clearly don't have any idea how recruitment works. And since we're a deferred-recruitment school, they will only be MORE sure of they're "rushing XYZ" by the time recruitment rolls around.

We're a small school (4 NPC orgs) and really, most people are XYZ or bust - and they drop out if XYZ cuts them. Either they go through informal the next fall and try to get in that way or they don't go social Greek (a lot join the service org... and I am NOT knocking service orgs, but at my school there are indeed a lot of people who join it just for letters, unfortunately). I really, really wish there were a way to get PNMs to be more open-minded.

Side note: my chapter's province president is constantly telling them to stop using "rush" and "pledge." However, it seems like no one on campus uses the "proper" terminology. She said once she gets the "campus culture," but still every year there's a lonnnng discourse about proper terminology. I'm not sure how to correct it.

Wow, I just saw how many views this thread has.:eek:

Anyway, take note, PNMs! You may have favorites but if you're doing an NPC recruitment, pleeease don't publicize your choices. That's likely to end badly.

I think it might be a little more understandable at a smaller school maybe? With only four sororities it seems like maybe they would all have pretty distinct personalities and there would be a bigger difference between them especially if they are smaller too? A big difference from a school that has a bunch of houses and maybe 200 or 300 members where you could probably find a place in almost any of them if you gave them a chance?

Coming from a smaller school with fewer chapters--

In some ways, yes. BUT I still don't think you could possibly know that before you get to the school. At that point it is 100% tent talk which is still mostly gossip and untrue, even at a small school. Over half the members without bids at my school came from PNMs dropping out when they didn't get "their" chapter, and it was crap. Any of those girls would have done well and had a great time at any of the chapters. Even in a smaller school with smaller chapters, I think you can find your place with any group.

And most of the girls who are doing that sort of thing are going off of "XYZ is the most popular. I belong in XYZ."

/soapbox

[I should note, as stated earlier, that I rushed "for" a group. and it wasn't the "best" group like I just generalized. But I didn't do that until I'd been on campus for a few months, and, in retrospect, I do think I would have enjoyed myself in any of the groups on campus. I wouldn't have thought so at the time, and Pi Phi was 100% the best fit for me, but I would have been a-ok and had a great experience anyway]

I think we all recognize the difference between "My older sister is an XYZ and I know all of her friends and hang out with them constantly and want to be an XYZ" and "I wanna be an XYZ because this hot guy told me XYZ was the best". But in either case, you STILL shouldn't make it public.

Interestingly, I think this kind of works against what you're trying to argue. If a PNM could "definitely" fit in with at least a small group of sisters in a chapter of 200-300 girls, then she could hypothetically join any one and it wouldn't matter if she focused on only one group. If, on the other hand, there were only 20 sisters in a chapter, she'd have to truly make sure that she fit in with at least a couple of them, and she'd have less of a chance of that happening than she would in a larger chapter. She'd be better off increasing her chances of meeting people she clicks with by being open to more chapters.

My school had 3 chapters. When I was active, there were between 10 and 30 members in each, and we only held informal recruitment. On numerous occasions, we had PNMs who would go through recruitment set on one chapter. They wouldn't get a bid. We had one girl come out to ONLY our recruitment events for THREE semesters before she finally got the hint, went to recruitment events for a different chapter for one semester, and received a bid. She loved her time with her chapter.

I think it's sometimes misleading to say that "small schools/Greek systems are different" when it comes to having an open mind. And I would say you should definitely keep an open mind if you haven't even arrived at school yet, regardless of which school you attend.

Ok, here's the question. Are you doing deferred recruitment correctly? You don't have a lot of silly rules about no contact first semester, RAs have to disaffiliate, freshmen can't go to fraternity parties, etc etc, do you?

The more NORMAL contact PNMs have with sorority members, the more open minded they will be, as they will get to know them as normal human people. The more rules and garbage are put in the way, and the harder it is to make a simple person to person connection, the more closed-minded the PNMs will be.

And if the worst thing in the world that's happening at your school is that people are saying "rush" and "pledge" your province president needs a chill pill. They've been trying to eradicate these terms for decades now, and the fact that it hasn't happened just hits home that the "proper" terms are stupid.

I'd say it's hit or miss on doing it "correctly." We had four Greek advisers in six years (and are soon to get another new one), and each one did things differently. There are no rules about first-semester contact or fraternity parties, but last year the rho chis were chosen and had to disaffiliate about halfway through the first semester (and were watched like HAWKS).

In the past, freshmen were allowed to attend informal recruitment parties, just not receive bids. I did think that gave them a taste of things and allowed them to get to know sorority women. Now, though, we do dynamic recruitment which is a whole different kettle of fish (I don't even have it all figured out yet).

And yes, I agree on the chill pill needed. :D