Missouri is not flat. (See: Ozarks.)
In contrast, Illinois IS flat.
The Red River Valley of North Dakota/Minnesota IS flat.

I have lived in all of those places and I know whereof I speak.;)

Agreed. But not my 18 year old hair, though.

That would be awesome! If we could do that we would RULE THE WORLD!! Ha ha!! :D

Being from the Ozark Mountains of southern Missouri, I will concur. Also, only the Mississippi Delta-area of Arkansas is flat. Western Arkansas is part of the Ozark Mountain Range with the Boston & Oauchita Mountains.

Now that I have concluded my geography lesson, I will join in the real discussion.

Although going to an SEC/Big 12/Big 10(really 14) school would be fun, I think I would prefer a smaller-ish school that has a very active Greek Life. Grand Valley in Michigan, Eastern Illinois, etc. They are still pretty big schools with pretty active Greek systems. Private schools with great Greek systems, I would pick Wabash College, Bucknell, or Lehigh.

I'm not sure that Ramadan would be equivalent. Muslims fast during daylight hours in Ramadan, but otherwise pretty much go through their regular day -- work, school, etc. So Ramadan per se would not prevent someone from participating in rush/recruitment. It might prevent them from eating or drinking at rush/recruitment events. Eid al-Fitr (the last day of Ramadan) and Eid al-Adha (during the Hajj) are perhaps the closest equivalents.

It's the all-day-and-nothing-but aspect of the Jewish High Holy Days that distinguishes it from the other observances that have been mentioned. A Jew observing Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur simply cannot attend any rush/recruitment event on those days. Period. If attendance at rush/recruitment events on those days is required, then that requirement effectively excludes Jews from being able to participate.

It's not that complicated, really. The reality is that, historically at least, it's Christian and Jewish observances that were most frequently encountered in American culture. Also historically, it's the High Holy Days that are most likely to conflict with a Fall recruitment.

So it's been a pretty simple matter: Don't schedule required events on Christmas, Good Friday or Easter, or on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur. Additional "no-schedule" days might be locally appropriate depending on local demographics.

As other religions like Islam or Hinduism grow in the U.S., note can be taken of what days (if any) would present attendance problems for the faithful of those religions and plans made accordingly. In the meantime, policies are structured so that missing an otherwise required event because of religious obligations doesn't have a negative impact on someone. Schools and workplaces do it all the time.

I would want to go through an SEC recruitment just to see what it was like, and to experience the insanity of it all. However, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't fit in and I wouldn't want that typically large chapter experience.

I'd simply like to go through formal recruitment - as my school didn't even have formal when I attended - at any school where there were 5-10 chapters and each sorority had between 40-60 members.

And having a house would be nice :)

All right you guys, I checked and the highest elevation in the Ozarks is 2560'.

I looked at some photos (Google Images). The Ozarks are very pretty! But they look like hills to me. I live at about 1800', my view is mountains to the north of me & AZ-Alpha Xi that are ~ 8000' to 9000'... and I grew up with the Coast Range and the Sierra Nevadas as my mountain references (along with a gorgeous Golden bridge and a big honkin' ocean). It's all relative, though, and I'm sincerely really sorry I said that Missouri and Arkansas were kinda flat (even if they are kinda sorta more flat than not).

Carry on.

I think this is the bottom line.

Exactly what made me wonder about all this. I guess I'm sort of the one who says either accommodate them all or ignore them all. I think I might be somewhat miffed if my school allowed people of a certain religion to opt out of a day of recruitment while not letting others. But then, I come from a place where "chapter church" is not a foreign concept. That's why I veered off on this topic - to see where others fall on the spectrum. Interesting....

When I was at Michigan State, we were still on quarters and rush was in September. We always worked around the Jewish holidays. Between that, classes, and football games, rush was a couple of weeks long.

This thread is really maintaining its split personality.

I went through recruitment at Michigan. It's in September, and it's drawn out over 2 1/2 weeks. This is to avoid home football games and Jewish holidays.

If I was going to do it over again, I'd probably go to a LAC instead of a big university for undergrad. I'd go to Washington and Lee. I told my daughter that it would have been perfect for me if it had been co-ed when I was applying to college. The picture of sorority row in the admissions brochure really caught my attention. I wanted to move right in! (I met the mom of my daughter's roommate for next year...she's a Theta from another university and she admitted she felt the same way!)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-r...ororityrow.jpg

Well, to be honest, I think when it comes to the High Holy Days, I think the problem tends to be less allowing people to "opt out" of those days (because how can that do anything but hurt them), and more with planning anything on those days to begin with.

I may not be remembering well, and of course there could be observances I'm not aware of, but I'm really not aware of anything in other religions quite like the High Holy Days. As we've said, Christmas, Good Friday and Easter are the closest equivalents in Christianity, but they're not really quite the same. Christians are not forbidden from doing anything not related to religious observances on those days, especially Good Friday. A Christian can work on those days. If someone scheduled a meeting or non-Easter-related event for the evening of Easter, I might think that was odd or inconsiderate, but I would not be forbidden from participating. (Scheduling something for Easter morning or mid-day might be another matter.)

But if rush/recruitment events are scheduled on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, then those who are scheduling those events are either fairly ignorant or they are scheduling those events on days that they have to know excludes a group of students from participating, and does so based on their religion.

I think the difference is that I don't see it as "accomodating." I see it as a matter of scheduling events on the High Holy Days sends a very clear, if unintended, message: Jews are not really welcome.

I see your point. I guess I'm looking at small university town - say Auburn, AL for instance. Probably not too many options for a Catholic to attend Mass...unlike St. Louis where there's a Catholic church on every corner and several Saturday vigil masses along with many Sunday times. And probably even less on Holy Days of Obligation. So, what does the observant PNM - or chapter member for that matter - do? I'm not sure that I can pass judgment on whether a Jewish High Holy Day is more important than a Catholic Holy Day of Obligation. Is that something each person decides for themselves or does the all-knowing recruitment Wizard of Oz make that decision?

Take this case - on the campus where I've been advising for over 20 years. Pref is on Sunday morning. First party at 10 and second at 11:15. Chapter has to be there at 8 AM and PNMs at 9:30. Bid Day is at 6 PM. I have a problem with this. I'm just not sure how we handle all this. It's a real conundrum to me.

I really think its a case of ignorance more than anything. I've said this before on GC, and it's not anything that I'm proud of, but I grew up in a small town with no Jewish population. I was into my 20s before I met anyone who was Jewish. I can certainly see similar scrnarios for women who grew up in Mississippi. As an active, it never would have occurred to me that scheduling something on these days would be an issue, but I certainly never would have wanted to exclude anyone. I do wonder how many women are impacted by this at Ole Miss. It would be interesting to find out.

Again, though, these aren't really comparable. Respecting a holy day of obligation means making sure that Catholics have the opportunity to attend mass that day -- meaning an hour or two. If a town is really that small, I'm betting a half-way savvy panhellenic (presumably with some Catholic members) knows or could easily find out when any masses will be offered and schedule accordingly.

BTW and FWIW, Auburn appears to have two Catholic churches, plus the Auburn+Catholic Campus Ministry.

Again though, I don't think it's a matter of deciding what is "more important." It's a matter of those setting the schedule knowing that if they set any required events at any time of day on Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, they are effectively excluding Jews (except for truly non-observant Jews) from being able to participate.

I think that is a condumdrum, and I do tend to think it's . . . less than considerate . . . to some PNMs to set such a schedule. But the reality is that on most college campuses I know of, there are many opportunities for practicing Christians to attend worship at time other than Sunday morning. Actually, it seems to me that lots of campus denominational and non/inter-denominational avoid Sunday morning and prefer to hold services late on Sunday or at other times. Catholic churches or student centers are typically going to offer a Saturday vigil mass so that would allow Catholics to fulfill their obligation and then be full-on with recruitment on Sunday. With a little foresight, it can probably be handled.

With the High Holy Days, it's not a matter of whether someone can find a service that will fit their schedule. It's a matter of participation at all on those days being prohibited.

So, to use your example, Christians students typically can work around the schedule and make sure they are fulfilling religious obligations -- though some may find it inconsiderate to require them to do so -- when pref and bid day are on a Sunday. But if pref and bid day are on Yom Kippur, Jewish student cannot attend pref parties, cannot sign preference cards (?) in the case of PNMs or be involved in member selection in the case of members, cannot accept bids and cannot attend bid day. See the difference?


I wonder. I think it very well may be ignorance, or for want of a better word -- not paying attention. There are lots of areas of the South that have quite old and established Jewish communities. I can say that when I was growing up in a small Southern town (in the 60s and 70s), we had a handful of Catholics in town. But everyone who ate in the school cafeteria had fish-sticks for lunch every Friday, so we knew that Catholics didn't eat meat on Friday. My kids know when the High Holy Days are because there's no school those days, even though the Jewish population here is relatively small.

I agree that few if any people want to exclude PNMs. I think for most it's a matter of not being personally familiar with the High Holy Days (as in, not being Jewish) and therefore not realizing just what the implications of scheduling things on those days are for observant Jews. But these days, I think most people should be aware. Frankly, I would have thought that all but the most sectarian colleges and universities would already have policies in place that would prevent activities like recruitment being scheduled on those days. They're certainly on every academic and business calendar I've ever seen.

I will really try to step away from the soapbox now. :o

My alma mater is a very large university in the middle of one of the largest metros in the US. I've always wondered what it would have been like if I had pledged at a small liberal arts college in the middle of nowhere. We had tons of options with regard to entertainment, so there was no "forced bonding" (for lack of a better term) because of not having anything to do on campus.

Whenever something like this came up in discussions my sister always said she wanted to attend the University of Salamanca in Spain where if you signed up for rush:
-attendance at all functions was absolutely mandatory,
-you got no choice in to which house you would be assigned,
-and if you failed to receive a bid you would be denounced to the Inquisition and turned over to Spanish Dominicans who would decide whether you were to be burnt at the stake or just cast into the dungeon to be tortured.

She said it really motivated the rushees to put best foot forward.
There were times when I believed she really meant this not just as a joke.

Since my Greek Life experience began at a Big East School in the Northeast, I always had a eye for Univ. of Maryland-CP, Lehigh and URI. If I had to choose a Southern school, it would definitely be Univ. of Alabama, Ole Miss. and UGA.

ZBT:"BROTHERHOOD..ABOVE & BEYOND"

I would have loved to go to a bigger school. UCLA, USC (CA), ASU (AZ) or UofA. Although I really did consider going to Texas for a long time. I think all these schools have a great Greek system.

Of the systems I have visited, and I have visited a few, I would probably really enjoy pledging at RPI.

This is exactly how I feel. I said I'd want to go thru recruitment at Alabama (and maybe Auburn) to experience what it's like, the "insanity" as you call it. It's fun to follow it on GC from the outside looking in. There's always so much stress and drama! But I, too, question whether I would have fit in at an SEC school where Greek life is such a big deal.

I went thru "rush" at the U. of Minnesota in 1990. Greek life was NOT a big deal there at all (that's changing). I went thru with NO idea what it was about (besides being social), NO recommendations, NO family members who were Greek...literally I knew NOTHING! And I always had the maximum number or more invites back each day, and ended up preffing at Tri Delta and Pi Phi. It was all very laid-back, and I never, ever, EVER would've had the experience I had at an SEC school. Ever! I would've been cut by most, if not all, chapters after the first day at an SEC just by having no recs!

In the end I'm glad I had the rush I did. I probably would've soured on Greek life after get cut from all houses after the first day! That's why I like to live vicariously thru others' experiences on GC, 'cause it's sooooo different than what I experienced. All the fun and drama without a personal investment!

i just took a class entitled "Heresy, Witchcraft, and Inquisition", so I appreciate your sister's yearning for the good old days of really structured rush!

http://www.midwesttvguy.com/wp-conte...nquisition.jpg

"NOBODY expects the snap bid!!"

I'd do the same, but my then 17 year old hair was still growing out the results of a summer of Sun-In. Hey, if the blondes looked so great on the bottle I'd get glorious blonde highlights in my deeply brunette hair, right?

Back on topic, I would have been a fish out of water at a place like Pitt or any big downtown in the city type school. I still can't fathom Ohio State being smack in what seems to be the middle of Columbus. Give me a traditional college campus any day.

On a similar note, I'd like to be the RFM specialist (or generally chapter numbers cruncher advisor) at one of those huge rush schools. The system has changed wildly since I was in school, and while 600+ girls going through rush for 15 chapters is a lot, it's no IU or Bama, and minus RFM it was a very different animal.

The ratio is around 3:1, and I promise, it's not as great as it sounds lol. All of the houses are on campus. And it's a competitive/unique system in it's own way.

Ask your GLO to put you in the pool for training.

I went through rush at Ole Miss. It was amazing to be a part of such a well-oiled machine: 200+ (now even 300+) members, hyper-organized campus election teams and Derby Days routines, gorgeous houses, always way more willing volunteers than officer positions, etc.. But it was way too easy for girls to get lost in the crowd, and harder to develop a unique sense of sisterhood. Lots of women don't feel the bonds so strongly in such a big group--it's easier to get lost in the crowd.

I'd definitely want to "do-over" at a school that still had houses, but slightly smaller membership. I'd love to be in a housed chapter of about 120 women.

Word life. Greek life in a large metro city is a different beast. Not sure it's even a beast as its some kinda mythical creature. I would've liked to go away and experience Greek life at one of the SUNY schools, or maybe Syracuse, for the Greek life.

Well, that kinda sums it up for the D9 side. Ill extend that list for myself for some of the other bigger-name HBCUs: NCAT, FAMU, Hampton, Bennett (women's college)... Ok drawing a blank here on others, but I'd like to experience Greek life specific to that college experience, from the icebreaker to commencement.

LOL

Hampton had crossed my mind as well as Bennett.:D Ultimately, it came down to the "meccas" of D-9 life.

Ha, ha. I had to come out of lurkdom just to reply to this thread. This is something that has fascinated me since I discovered Greek Chat. I'm from a small midwestern school and the whole concept of recs and these giant formal rushes is completely foreign to me. I think experiencing an SEC rush or UT (I live in the south now) would be interesting. Personality-wise, I probably would have failed because I'm shy and insecure (which being in a GLO helped), but it would just be such an interesting experience to see the systems on those campuses. We had four NPC orgs when I was an active. I just can't imagine the logistics that it takes for 20+ chapters. Although, the organizing nut in me would really love to be part of it!

Just because I am a number cruncher, I think there are only 3 schools with 20+ chapters, and none is in the SEC or the south. (If you're talking NPC.) But, I get what you're saying. :)

Thank you for understanding. Just a random number I typed up. :)

I guess I'd pick the school I didn't go to - College of Charleston. I rushed at UGA back in 1993 - presumably before RFM - and got cut hard every round, but ended up at the perfect house for me (which happened to also be one of my top choices every round).

I wouldn't mind trying rush at UGA knowing now what I didn't know then - with the 18 y/o body, the 38 y/o brain and budget. And this time, recs. I mean, I didn't have a clue.

But my sister went to CofC, and it was my second choice - would I have ended up a Theta like her, some other house, or not Greek at all?

Having skimmed through this thread ...

I think it would have been interesting to go through an SEC or otherwise heavily competitive rush - knowing what I know now. Knowing what I knew as a 17-year-old freshman, with an anti-greek father and a mother who went to school overseas and knew zero about greek life, I probably would have fallen flat on my face. Knowing what I know now, I'd have lined up recs, chosen appropriate outfits, makeup, and jewelry, put Vaseline on my teeth, and gone in all guns blazing.

As for the religion issue ... It was dicey when I was a collegian. Recruitment was held during the last weekend in August. My chapter had a rule in our bylaws that no mandatory events were to be held during the holy days of any religion of any member, and this included Shabbat. Guess when recruitment started? Friday night. :-/ Our workaround was that, since Panhel had dictated the dates and times of FR, anyone with a religious issue could be excused. Anyone who was Shomer Shabbos was excused from Friday night and Saturday daytime parties. During my sophomore year, I was still a practicing Catholic, and I had to excuse myself from one party during the weekend because I had to attend Mass. People did what they had to do to meet their religious obligations.

The High Holy Days were never an issue recruitment-wise, but there was a nice little incident one year where the head of Greek Life (who was himself Jewish) decided to schedule an all-GLO president's meeting ON YOM KIPPUR. When the presidents of my chapter and of AEPi called him out on it, he refused to reschedule, claiming he "didn't notice" it was Yom Kippur because he had a sticky note on his calendar over the date. The presidents of AEPhi and AEPi boycotted the meeting, and IIRC, several other GLOs with Jewish presidents sent their VPs in their stead.

</threadjack>

Just curious...where are the other two schools with 20+ chapters. I know Indiana is one of them. Illinois used to be 20+, aren't they at 18 or 19 now?

Yep - the only ones that ever flirt with 20 or have had 20 at some point fairly recently are Illinois (currently 18 plus one colony in the fall), Indiana (currently 21 plus a colony next year), and Penn State (currently 19).

The chapter membership totals might put Alabama or Oklahoma ahead of these schools, but in terms of number of chapters, these 3 always lead the pack.

Interesting that those are all Big Ten members. I know Purdue has just around 17 or 18. Over 20 if you include non-NPC members. I didn't go to a Big Ten school, but I did grow up in that area and I never heard much of the Greek culture. I was even at a Big Ten school for recruitment one fall! It really was an eye-opener for me to read here about the big southern Greek culture. I also have two close friends now who both went through recruitment at UT. I have two small daughters and who knows where their lives may lead them. At least I'm more prepared now. ;)

After formal recruitment in January, Indiana might come close to those schools' totals. Even the smallest chapter is around 150 while the largest goes up to 250+. Most are between 180 and 210.

For the record - Alabama has 18 Panhellenic chapters - current total is 285. They were looking at expansion still. Georgia and Auburn each have 17 NPC groups.

ETA- ADX is not a member of NPC but of the CPC