That is exactly what it is saying. I thought the pont of this thread was the assertion that there was some animosity between BGLO's and APO/GSS because NPHC orgs perceived them as imitating. There was nothing condecending about the statement, it was stating what RM asserted was happening around at different schools and suggested the problem was an isolated one, not a national one. The issue is not your history, it is your actions which have nothing to do with your history. I sincerelt doubt your history and official traditions have anything to do with stepping, branding (yuck- but that is another topic altogether),etc. Conflicts like these are never about the FACTS only the PERCEPTIONS. As many of the psot reflect, even those who hear, know and cognitively understand the history/rexplanations DON"T CARE because their perception remains the same.

Yhe point was this is not a national problem and exclusive to to those campuses where BGLO's have a negative perception regarding the behavior of APO and GSS.

I found the whole 25/52 fam distinctino fascinating, though. What is the point of in one breath touting the diversity of your organization and in the next taking it to the level of we are a faction all our own within the org? The examples you gave do not expalin away the divisiveness of that position. They seek to justify it. Saying although we have been explaining why we act so differently from chapter to chapter ia our great diversity we also think it is okay that we mimick the seperatsm that can be found thorughout soiciety all at the same time. You examples exemplify the fact that the US is still a divided society wehre Black people and white people live their lives seperatesly. Are you saying, yeah, that's true and we exhibit that smae de facto segregation in our fraternity,too?

I am sure you are porobably not but your responses have not yet rectified that issue IMHO and I would invite a response that could show how those two positions truly live side by side.

Kimmie1913, I never thought I would say this to you, but......

YOU WIN THE SUPER MATCH! YOU ARE DEAD ON THE MONEY!!!!!! *bells ring and Match Game music plays in the background*

You have just described the membership of Alpha Phi Omega to a T! You are also correct in that the membership of Alpha Phi Omega largely represents the membership of the US, in that it claims to be a diverse country, but it is also a largely segregated one at that.

For the longest time, I have said that APO's membership was a microcosm of the US's population, in more ways than one.

While that doesn't change my opinions on what I have posted, you have made some very accurate points, and I am not going to fool you into believing you are wrong.

I put my pride in my pocket, extend my hand to you, autograph the Super Match response as a keepsake to you *Rain Man signs the baby blue 4x6 card & gives to Kimmie* and I say, KEEP ON POSTIN! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Let's introduce our next Greekchatter who is.... *turntable with "Super Match board" rotates to reveal two contestant podiums with one having a Greekchatter seated. Kimmie1913 sits in the vacant seat*

http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Why join something if you are going to separate yourself from the whole? What is the point of joining in the beginning?

Yes, I believe in what Zeta stands for...and I believe in the principles of the organiZation and would NEVER try to change the traditions of my organiZation just b/c I wanted to create my own unique identity. But of course, it's hard for me to understand such major traditions being different from campus to campus. For example, one Zeta chapter might alwayZ wear blue jackets with white writing and one might alwayZ wear white jackets with blue writing...but to say that on one campus we have a call and on another campus we don't have one and never heard of it is unfathomable.

Question.....are you an active APO Alumni Volunteer?

Question #2.....do u spend as much time in your own forums? Just wondering...

------------------
The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 27, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 27, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 27, 2001).]

[/B]I thought the point of this thread was the assertion that there was some animosity between BGLO's and APO/GSS because NPHC orgs perceived them as imitating.[/B]

The imitating part is the part that is being interjected as the answer to the initial question, "Why the animosity. Not initiated as part of the topic. And that is the condescending that we all have experienced in some way or fashion, even though you may not have meant to be. It's the assumption of imitation. This comes from believing that your surroundings is the beginning of justifying everything in its path. Not

I sincerely doubt your history and official traditions have anything to do with stepping, branding (yuck- but that is another topic altogether), etc.

How far would you like to go back. Is stepping apart of anybody's official history. It is official when you bring it to the chapter level. But I never heard of these items being written down anywhere period. If what you been doing is, what you been doing for over period of years as to establish an official tradition, what says it's not an official tradition. Nationally there are traditions that are similar throughout the organization, however there are things that each chapter does, that set itself apart from the other chapters. This is no different than that.

Conflicts like these are never about the FACTS only the PERCEPTIONS.

Why do you think that the condescending situations are only perceptions? If we give you examples of situations they are real to us. If the brothers are being checked because of attire they choose to where,
Or if a group of individuals in the NPHC is clowning on a single frat as to attempt to degrade and disrepect his organization, I would definitely say there is a problem here.


The point was this is not a national problem and exclusive to those campuses where BGLO's have a negative perception regarding the behavior of APO and GSS.

That is a constant. But if it is happening from campus to campus around the United States, I would consider in a national problem.


What is the point of in one breath touting the diversityof your organization and in the next taking it to the level of we are a faction all our own within the org?

The point is, we are who we want to be, and in some cases "have" to be in order to exist in a world where there is strong presence on what is perceive to be what a fraternity should be. (As stated by the large fraternities in the culture) If you have other organizations stating that your organizations is not a real organization (not to us, but individuals around the very campus your were your recruiting, "locally") then you become innovative. And soon your innovations become your traditions. Every organization has walked down that road.

The examples you gave do not explain away the divisiveness of that position. They seek to justify it. Saying although we have been explaining why we act so differently from chapter to chapter in our great diversity, we also think it is okay that we mimic the separatism that can be found throughout society all at the same time.

No, you are just saying that you do not agree with the explanation. We have became ourselves, in the way we have developed to be for over thirty years. We've been a several campuses for over or near fifty years. Our culture surrounding did influence us to become a stronger individual organization outside the circle of the immediate org. Wherever you have a large contingency of one aspect of people they will group. Because all the chapters of the 25/52 family have similar ways, ways that fit who they are. Society will always be separated into likes and dislikes. That's just reality. I'm not going to act a certain way just so I can bring the principle of this great organization to my people. We are attracting the same people who you want to attract. So we are bringing individuals to an organization that love it they way they should.

Your examples exemplify the fact that the US is still a divided society where Black people and white people live their lives separately. Are you saying, yeah, that's true and we exhibit that same de facto segregation in our fraternity, too?

If you want to take it that way, then fine. You have forceful segregation and you have a natural one. Ours is natural. I'm not saying that it is wrong or right. That doesn't matter. What matters is the attraction of the entire organization brings in people from all walks of life. Even when they could have wanted to join a NPHC organization. Side by Side exist. I know you know people that talk differently when they are in
The presence of their homie's, and you know that when you ar in front of an interviewer you are not going to say the same things at home. The brothers of Ay-Phi-Que become Alpha Phi Omega when they need to
Coexist, and they become Ay-Phi-Que when they need to be brothers!


Wassup Rainman! I think they are getting it.
The dissagreement comes when they attempt to go to the beginning when we first made the decision to join this organization. That is actually not worth discussing today, because it is too old to change. I met a brother at the convention who pledged at Howard University in 1951. Strolling didn't beginning until the 1990's, but what is it when NHPC groups don't think we should be stepping, handsign or doing calls. Orginallity? Originality can beginning anywhere. From the smallest change to the largest.

I've got to run. Skeet Skeet!!!


JayBEE!

To the group…

I find this to be a very interesting discussion, primarily because it illustrates the regional and cultural differences in Greekdom.

I have a slightly different view on it because…

1) I am a member of both predominately Black (Iota) and predominantly White (KKPsi) fraternities.


2) I attended both a historically Black school (Southern University) and a historically White school (Southern Illinois University) as an undergrad.

3) I was a member of Iota when it was NOT in the NPHC and since it HAS been in the NPHC.


Regarding this business of “NPHC Traditions”, I realize that there are things that have evolved into NPHC-only traditions. I don’t necessarily believe that this is “right” – I just realize that it is reality.

Regarding stepping, KKPsi used to step in the large Greek shows at SU and compete against the NPHC groups. -- and consistently won. Nobody had drama with that – especially since many NPHC groups were represented in my chapter of KKPsi. (I remember stepshows where certain Brothers would perform with BOTH of his organizations!) I even remember a step that KKPsi did called “Social Fraternities” that was a mocking tribute to the NPHC frats … and the NPHC frats all got a big kick out of it!

I also remember the APO’s being referred to as “Ay-Phi Ques” and there was no drama with the Omegas – none whatsoever. It was accepted practice.

One of the things I have seen over my 21 years of being an Iota is a (somewhat disturbing) trend of attaching over-important significance to the less important aspects of membership. Things like hand-signs, calls, and stepping.

Don’t get me wrong – I enjoyed all of that stuff (and still do!) but it represents such a small slice of what NPHC membership should really be all about. We end up having disagreements and brouhahas that disintegrate into violence – and over what? Your handsign looks too much like mine? Get REAL!

Along this same line, NPHC groups want to claim certain things as though we have a patent on it. I always see Omegas doing the “dog” thing … But who remembers that the Sigmas used to be Dogs too? (I have yearbook pictures if anyone wants to see – Sigma Pledges with Dog collars! And yes, the Omega chapter was active on the campus at the time)

The Alphas at SIU used to do a handsign that is now done by Phi Beta Sigma. Kappas at Southern were known as “Pretty Boys” … in the North, they were also referred to as “Animals.”

My point is that this stuff is fluid and it changes and reconfigures over time. Its not written in stone and nobody owns any of it.

As an aside, I read with amusement the reference to Iotas in Gold Boots. In my day, if anybody had stepped to Upsilon Chapter of Iota Phi Theta about their gold boots, my Brothers would have furnished a gentlemanly suggestion to “Go mind your own business.”

We have far more important issues to deal with than “Who owns what (non-ritualistic) custom.” Black people are catching hell all over this country – our organizations need to be about the business of dealing with THOSE issues -- as defined in our individual statements of purpose.

When we solve those problems, then perhaps there will be time for the less demanding (and less central-to-our focus) problems of stepshows, boots, and handsigns.


------------------
IotaNet
Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, Inc.
Alpha Eta Chapter, Spring, 1980

Kappa Kappa Psi Honorary Band Fraternity
Zeta Nu Chapter, Spring, 1979

[This message has been edited by IotaNet (edited April 28, 2001).]

IMO, IotaNet's post should wrap up the whole thread. I don't think anyone could have said it better.

IOTANET:

As usual, you are the epitome or erudition and maturity, and you are right when you say that these things are minor and relatively unimportant in the big scheme of things. However, on the level in which they exist, and in the context of this discussion, the point is, "Is APO being discriminated against by the NPHC in its use of appropriating definable NPHC characteristics when it is not the National Method of Operation by said Organization?"

Now, I cannot speak for individual yards or chapters, but I can speak in broad terms knowledgeably in regards to my organization. Omegas do not take kindly to APO referring to itself as "Que" when it has no basis to do so. Omegas find it as an affront to see APO's with Omega brands. Anyone in Gold Boots will be reminded of their "inapproriate fashion choice". Yes, Sigmas were once "Dogs" during the hell week portion of their pledge program, but they have never been known as "Dogs" as part of their fraternal culture. The NPHC "owns" nothing. But can other people be original? Is that too much to ask? Do you have to have a hand sign, call, stroll, step, just because you have 3 greek letters?. Again none of this is cause for violence or consternation, just fodder for discussion.

IotaNet,

Man it is refreshing to hear someone speak with a grandeur of sense up in this bi-aach! You were right on point with how we used to relate to one another in the past. But what has happen is that Ay-Phi-Que has went away on some campuses. And now we are all over the net. And individual's world gets turned over in a society that they have been familiar with for the short time that they have been in the org they represent. (Short time = 4 to 8 years)

The NPHC is a very powerful conglomerate in the Greek system as it relates to the immediate culture that they thrive in. Think about it. Delta Sigma Theta is the largest sorority in the world. So you have to think relatively that the NPHC is the single most influential entity in the culture which they thrive in. So much so that they have a grip on what is considered fraternal to those individuals they seek to recruit. With that said, you have to expect other national organizations to come close to competing with them in a since, just to draw attention to the fact that we are national organizations as well.

I'm not saying that this is the reason why we do what we do. Because even though I'm 40 years old, there were many established traditions before I appeared in 1980.

The NPHC "owns" nothing. But can other people be original? Is that too much to ask?

Doggy Style. Ay-Phi-Que call ourselves Vikings and our national colors are royal blue and old gold. If I wear a blue Viking helmet, carried a Viking Sword, had a Viking shield, and rolled into a step show on a Viking ship, I would be original. But as soon as step off the Ship in Gold boots you would be mad wouldn't you. What is too much to ask, is the level of originality that you're requesting. It's actually trifling.

What is original? Because do consider our organization to be like no other on this planet.

But If you Read IotaNet's post (I have to reference it because it's understanding you can tell it's viewpoint is not narrow) you can see that acceptance isn't new, it's only new to individuals that we have been away from. Because I know we've been away from some campuses for over 10 years. Back in the day, Ay-Phi-Que and Groove Phi Groove use to hang tight in the north, and Ay-Phi-Que's were bringing down the house in New Orleans winning step shows and bragging. But that's all in the past. And individuals such as myself now support the young men that are coming up in other chapters of Ay-Phi-Que other than the one we came from.

Did you know Debbie Allen was an Ay-Phi-Que Foxx at Howard University? I had to throw that out there, just to let you know that Ay-Phi-Que is running off of old traditions. Not something that we recently threw together.

lol... http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Why not just start your own Fraternity and Sorority if you are going to separate yourself from your national orgs?

------------------
The Epitome of Beauty, Style, and Grace, Always Exemplifying Good Taste, A Zeta Woman, A Finer Woman, That's Me!

[This message has been edited by PrettyKitty (edited April 27, 2001).]

lol@ the "guilty" by association comment by 12dn94dst. I guess you right. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Much luv to you lovely lady.

I just wanted to BIG UP my frat brother IotaNet for another WONDERFUL post. Brother just keep spreading the truth. Ow-Ow!!!!!

BTW, IotaNet when you gonna grace the Iota Message Board on greekchat with your presence? I feel all lonely up over there *big smile*

Well said! Most divine 9 members feel if your not in the NPHC family..your not "real" GLO...these ppl need to get over it!

No one was thinking about this thread for seven years.

LOL

LOL. What is up with all of the necroposting lately?

I so agree with you on this one!!! get it Soror!!

Yeah:confused::confused::confused:

I forgot I wrote that. LOL I was on a roll that year!

Hey Frat. Well on my campus (ECSU, which I know that you know about us, well at least u should) But anyway, many people don't like the name Alpha Phi Omega because it has Alpha Phi (A-Phi) and Omega (Que). Other then that, thats it. I really don't pay it any mind b/c I am a Brother of A-Phi-Que and I am in a divine nine org.
But many people don't, and I see that b/c APO isn't part of the divine nine. They think b/c people join a greek letter org. that isn't divine nine b/c they couldn't get into a divine nine org. which isn't the case. I became a brother because I love to help others and APO does more community service then any divine nine org.

Sometimes I wonder whether Alpha Phi Omega at the HBCUs would be better off if it didn't refer to itself as A-Phi-Que. Do the Omega's view us using Q to represent our Omega to be flattery or not?

I'm still trying to find out both when Omega Psi Phi started using Q to describe itself and when Alpha Phi Omega at the HBCUs started using Q as part of its self description.

Randolph Finder
Alpha Phi Omega History and Archives Cmte.

I think NOT.

Agreed. I'm an APO brother who detests "A Phi Que."

Whether Omegas find it flattering is irrelevant -- most Ques I know really don't care one way or the other. It's usually people who aren't Ques who make it a big deal.

You also weren't initiated into a chapter where "A Phi Que" as a term was part of the chapter's heritage.

It is my belief that on those campuses where it is made into a huge problem, it isn't worth it to demand to be called A Phi Que. This would hold especially true on those campuses where the fraternity has been dormant for some time.

But why would the FAMU chapter stop referring to themselves as A Phi Que? It shouldn't.

It's not just the name, though. It's what it represents. Chapters that call themselves A Phi Que are usually men-only by design.

I think chapters that call themselves A Phi Que because it's part of their campus culture or chapter culture. It's usually not meant to signify a difference between men and women except among an extreme minority of members (JayBee) who want it to signify that.

I would have to respectfully disagree on this only because that still is used to signify a difference between all-male/co-ed chapters. I know a lot of A Phi Ques who would tell you in a minute that they are different from their APO counterparts and this is the reason they would give. A Phi Ques can only be males who pledged at an all-male chapter ("Vikes" are the other name used for these men too) and both titles are used interchangeably anyway all the time. So, for a woman/APO (somebody who pledged at a co-ed chapter) to call herself an A Phi Que would get some sideways looks.

And this is one of those instances where it's best to let Brothers have this conversation.

MESSAGE!

...and perhaps GC isn't the place to have it either but I will respectfully bow out.

The two terms...
 

1) A Phi Q (or A Phi Que) as far as I've seen has only been used at chapters at HBCUs, but there may have been some exceptions (Florida State back in the 1980s springs to mind, but not sure why). While it may be a copy of what Omega Psi Phi does, unless someone official from Omega Psi Phi is willing to state that it is specifically tied to their ritual or something similar (like Nupe for KAPsi), I'm not going to personally discourage it. If it makes a difference for a particular chapter, then I might give advice, but I think that's a local decision...

As indicated by the poster two above me, at least at Howard U., APhiQue is used by both the male and female brothers. Not sure on the other co-ed chapters at HBCUs, though.

2) Vikings/Vikes . *Considerably* different for me. I've *never* heard a female brother of Alpha Phi Omega, refer to themselves as a Viking. At one of the conventions in the last 20 years there was an effort to add the Viking as a symbol for Alpha Phi Omega, but I never understood the idea. All of my requests at the time (and since) haven't gotten an answer. While it probably made more sense than the proposal to add the Buffalo as a symbol at the 2000 convention, I'm still fairly clueless. I do get uncomfortable when the male brothers at co-ed HBCUs refer to themselves as Vikings...

3) As for other descriptors for Alpha Phi Omega, APO is the most heavily used. A Phi O is more common in Region V than elsewhere. Those two and APhiQue/APhiQ are the only ones I really see today. Historically, OTOH, I've seen "Alpha Phis" (Fairly common in the DC area chapters in the 1950s according to the Mu Alpha(Georgetown) chapter History) and "Omegas" (elsewhere)

4) In terms of our abbreviations affecting Omega Psi Phi, we also affect the Drama Fraternity, Alpha Psi Omega, which tends to abbreviate to APsiO to keep from causing confusion between the APOs.

And it's not your place to decide where we have the conversation, either.

Thank you for bowing out. Next time, you can take the snide remarks with you as you do so.

Oh please. I could have been way more snarky if I felt like it. :D
But I got the hint though. Back into my lane.

LOL@you for honoring a request to stay in YOUR lane from the CHIEFEST of lane changers on GC.

I have to agree with Senusret on this.

I know of a couple of co-ed chapters that seems to have come under the influence of A Phi Que elements, and refer to themselves as A Phi Que. One is a chapter at a state university that is now predominatly black (at a school that is definetly not) and the other is a chapter at a state university which is mixed. Yes, both chapters are still co-ed. It can be a bit jarring to hear a female Brother refer to themselves as A Phi Que.

Before that I had only heard the term A Phi Que used by members/chapters who were at HBCUs.


Also, at least in my region, the predominate term I here is "A Phi O", with APO a second. Will have to pay more attention in the future to see if I note one or the other used more.


Getting back to what the original thread was about. I have to say that APO chapters at non-HBCU schools also have to deal sometimes with the 'fake greek' attitude from the NIC/NPC crowd. Some see us as a 'non greek' group that has taken the 'trappings' of a greek org (letter, handclap, ritual, etc), but aren't a 'real greek' group because we aren't 'social', don't have houses, etc. (so what about social greek chapters who exist on campus where either none have houses or only a select few???). But if one is interesting in that 'debate', there are other threads here on that.