Oh and one more thing
 

Burt Reynolds, as we've probably all heard, is a Phi Delt. He was also one of the first men to pose nude for a magazine in Cosmo. That doesn't seem to have bothered Phi Delt or they wouldn't cite his name so often.

Just by law of averages, some of the men who posed for Playgirl were probably fraternity men. How do you think their brothers viewed that?

OK, here goes!

UMgirl: Disrespect can come in many forms, posing nude in palyboy or any pornographic venue would be such that an organization has the right to pull a membership and/or members would connote that as embarassing/not upholding the organizations values. When you say the orgnaization should respect you, what does that mean? Does your organization not have your best interests in mind and hasn't she opend many oppurtunites to you and filled your college life with memorable experiences...is that not respect? In return do you not have a obligation of membership to uphold the same ideals, to give back to the best of your ability...not doing something that could intentionally damage your group...is that so hard?

Amycat: There is a difference between art and Pornography. Playboy is not art. Art isn't pairing heels with a birthday suit before an ad for sextoys, herbal viagra... at least in my book it isn't.

33: Not what I meant. I meant we all joined a group that to us was our best fit and that should be regarded as sacred. And for me it is KD and for others it should be your letters as well. Mediocre in terms of I could have not been Greek and been able to do anything and only hurt myself in the process-the easy way out, not having to worry about how I effected others.

For the rest. When you joined your organization, you had to have taken an oath of some sort to uphold membership within the confines of your organization's standards...right? Does that mean you have to be a perfect cookie cutter XYZ, no, but it does mean you joined an organization, assumed responisibility for those letters for your life, and should have some obligation to uphold your organizations name.

DZrose: I wish there were more like you out there.

Lexi, thank you for clarifying that.

I think this has officially replaced the ebay pin debate, which replaced the racial debate in "dig in your heels-ness."

But chew on this (and don't flame me, this is NOT MY opinion): there are people out there who view beauty pageants as being every bit as demeaning to women or pornographic as Playboy. And there are LOTS of sorority women in those. Makes you think, doesn't it?

33: I see what you are saying, but in any situation a reasonable person could see the difference b/w Playboy and Miss America. In today's society it is all relative!

I see what you're saying, but I think that this is a very dangerous way to argue. You have your definition of "art" and someone else may or may not agree, and may define "art" differently. Whether something is "art" or not should, I strongly believe, be left up to an individual. I do not want to live in a world where someone else gets to decide what art is (or more likely is not), and control what I get to see based upon his or her morals and opinions, instead of being able to decide on my own. To each his or her own, and I suppose that you could also say to each organization its own, as well.

Lexi,
the key phrase there is IN YOUR BOOK. :) You are entitled to your beliefs as I am to mine as we all are to ours. Our sororities propose a general type of morality--it is highly interpretive. And, will be interpreted in a thousand different ways if a thousand different people are looking at it.

Standards for behavior in my part of the country are more liberal and relaxed. And so, an active posing would be treated differently here than they would in other areas--that is the only point I make.

As for the art v porn debate -- let me cite Cindy Crawford's playboy pictorial...I believe Herb Ritts photographed it (if anyone knows for sure, please confirm/correct me) and it was gorgeous.
Not all pictorials are like this granted, but you cannot make a blanket statement that a photograph of a naked woman cannot be art.

That, like everything else I said is MY OPINION, which I am entitled to.

:)
Amy

This Post Is Not To Offend Anyone
 

First....DZ, dont worry Im not offended at all. It was just your opinion and you have a right to say it just like I have the right to say what Im gonna say now.
Would there be a discussion if she was going to pose in Sports Illustrated's Swim Suit additon (which one year wwas wayyyy more raunchier than Playboy)?
Would we be singing a different tune if it had the signature of Michael Angelo or Monet under it? It would still be the same picture.
I totally agree with Amycat on this... What YOU think is art might not be what I think art is, and what your morals are might be different from mine and no one has the right to criticize anyones.
Lexi: each org. has different values just like people do. What I was saying is that yes, she should respect her org for what it has given her, but they should respect the fact that this is what she wants to do and as long as she make sure (if her org actually cares about her doing this)that its in good taste. It DOESNT even have anything to do with her org as long as she doesnt involve them. Its a college issue, if someone is going to take the time to find out what sorority all these girls could be in, then in my opinion they need to get a life.
Do you let the one girl who gets wasted every weekend and hooks up with everyone ruin the rep of an org or chapter? NO
Do you let the one chapter that may haze ruin it and let everyone think the org is that way..I should hope not.
THIS GIRL POSING FOR WHATEVER IS NOT GOING TO HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT ON HER ORG. OR CHAPTER.
True, her sisters may care, but in my opinion, theyre worried over nothing, and to a point they could be jealous who knows?? (Im just saying, you never know)
Also whats good standing in your org is different from my interpretation of my org. it doesnt say what moral codes we are suppose to uphold. What it says it that we should try to hold ourselves to the best standard we can, but that we should also honor and be true to ourselves. To me it really couldnt give me a moral code to live by anyways, because my faith and morals are going to be different from Greeklawgirl's, her's different from OTW's, hers differ from Lynn and Alphagam1019 and so on.
Truthfully (and the AGD's on here might kill me for this :D) if you want to get technical and read into stuff. She'd kind of be living up to some of AGD's purpose by posing....
To develop and prize health and vigor of body . Well she must definately prize her body in order to pose for playboy.
To covet beauty in enviroment, manner word and though Her body could be considered an enviornment.
.... to lover her for her womanhood. Self explanatory.
In the end, I dont always agree with or like what my org does, but they do it. And they will not always like what we do either, but if it makes us happy and we feel its right, why should they stop us from doing it, when we don't stop them? If sometimes going against or not agreeing them makes me a bad member then they better take my badge away.
This was just a general statement and sorry that it was soo long, just had alot to say. AGD's please dont think wrong of me for using the Purpose this way, but I was just trying to use it as a kind of twisted (but truthful) example :D

#1 I love agruing with everyone! I think it is funny that when someone is expressing their own opinon that they have to be reminded that everyone else is doing the same. This is what this type of venue is for...right?

As I have said, this is how I feel and I wouldn't suggest doing it. That's all. I couldn't care less who is in it, I don't check out Playboy so whatever, I just don't think it is the best possible move in anyone's future.

UMgirl:The whole art debate is a little crazy, I am aware it is all relative, but their is a difference b/w going to view an art show and going to the local 711, showing ID, and buying a playboy with a cover on it. All I was trying to point out is there is a difference in a tasteful pictoral of naked women and pornography.
To say that this wouldn't invovle the organization is far fetched. Look at this thread, isn't the girl who is in the picture(with the crazy red shoes) an ASA and that has been mentioned? That doesn't invovle undo attention to that organization? It's not like we are talking about her donation of her playboy funds to the NPC foundation we are talking about her choice to do this and we don't care to know anything else, or at least no one has brought anything else up.

Heck, if I had such a great body like these women in Playboy it would be hard for me to say no to $100,000 but, let's face it, we all make our own choices and I couldn't make such a bad impression for my family so I wouldn't even consider it a good NPC move either. I would like to volunteer for KD until I cannot anymore and I doubt they would like an ex Playmate to be a national representative.

Well, I have to go, I cannot stay at work all night to debate, but will be interested to see what happens over night to this!

I am sure Playboy and other companies like them are upstanding, tax paying entities, but it's not my cup of tea. END OF STORY.

Good Luck to all whom disagree!

I searched under her name with ASA attached to it on the Internet, and found nothing. In one interview she mentions "my sorority" but doesn't say which one, and even in her college newspaper it doesn't say which one. If she was trying to get ASA's name out attached to her centerfold, she did a lousy job.

I think the human body is a beautiful object. When I was in figure drawing we drew nude women all the time, live and photos. I did some drawings with playboy's and I think the pictures are very artisitic in comparison. Personally I would never pose nude because I do not have the courage to do so. but I do think that the women who do are more than welcome to pose. But if an organization deems posing in magizines as unmoral then it is that organizations right. I think especally in the south it is frowned upon because we have very particular codes of ethics. I can't image one of my sisters posing for playboy because it is definatly considered risque, and not a positive representation. If you are going to pose for a magizine you should be prepared for what ever happens as a result.

what if they demand the badge back....and she says no

Playboy, Miss America, and Maxim might be offensive and exploitive to some people and a great career opportunity to others. Personally, I was in a beauty pageant when I was younger. I had fun and did not feel exploited. I was never interested in Playboy, not that they were banging down my door. :p
It is very common for actresses appear nude in film, on stage, and sometimes even in magazines. It's strange that a sorority would have one policy for college students who appear in Playboy and not for actresses who appear nude.

After reading these debates and studying psych of women, here goes.....

Yes, the female body is beautiful. We have all acknowledged that, male and female. But what is part of that beauty? The mystery of it! I know that I am more turned on by the site of a guy in boxers than I am seeing them naked. And that's why lingerie is so popular...because when it all comes down to it, many men like the mystery, the waiting, the anticipation of it. If you had the chance to see all of the great works of art, and you found one that really struck you...you may be left breathless by it's beauty. But if you were forced to sit there and stare at that same painting or whatever forever, would you still have the same feeling? Probably not. You would learn to take it for granted. It's the same to me as constantly being exposed to naked women or men. And wouldn't you be left feeling cheated if you found out that work of art wasn't an orignal? Yeah, that's how I feel when I see airbrushed women and men.

Going further, I'm sorry, but I feel that women who pose for these kinds of magazines have no respect for themselves. Part of what being a KD means to me is that as a woman, I should respect myself and my body. Respecting my body does not allow for putting it on display in a nude magazine. "Oooh! These girls have great self-confidence! That's why they do it!" Yeah, yeah...if they did, they wouldn't need to show everything to the world. I personally feel that I'm hot and my body doesn't need to be exposed to prove it to the world, because who cares what the world thinks! ANYBODY can pose nude...the internet has proved that....you don't have to be hot to do it. You just get paid more when you do it for Playboy. And what does the world call women who get paid for their body in the most basic sense? (Not saying I think women who pose are necessarily prostitutes, but whatever...)

"It's a great opportunity" FOR WHAT? To make your parents proud? To be listed as a famous alum as your sorority? (haha) A stepping stone to b-rated films, cutting the ribbon at a local used car lot, or modeling for a second-rate department store? I'm so sure that when I apply for a job, my credentials will be amplified that if I have a job listing as "posing for Playboy."

"Well Ms., you graduated 3rd in your college class, maintained a 4.0 average, were an exemplary member of Kappa Delta, active in campus activities, and YOU POSED FOR PLAYBOY!?! Well, let's just get you suited up for work at the FBI."
:rolleyes:

Ok, I may have not expressed myself coherantly or even on the topic. It's late and stressed and naked women annoy me. Take what I write with a grain of salt.

However....wonder if the girl who started the thread ever did pose?

HAHAHAHAHA... Moxiegrrl, you took the words (dripping with sarcasm and all) right out of my mouth. Thanks.

:D :D

Moxie.....Playgirl is still out there, but unfortunately it is hard to find. They still put the eye candy in there. But I agree with you, why is there so much for men to gawk at and so little for women? Even so-called "strip clubs" aimed at women are just guys dancing around in little speedos. Who needs to pay to see something you can see for free at the local gym?

DZRose, Lexi, et al......I agree with you that there are some publications out there that are truly offensive. I do agree that there are some depictions that degrade women and encourage a negative image....and it doesn't have to be a picture. That is another gripe I have about Maxim.....I think a lot of the writing is very degrading to women. But I don't think that there is anything wrong with artistic portrayal of a nude body presented for the sake of appreciation of the beauty of the human form. Let's face it, human beings are sexual creatures by nature. We are all stimulated by and irresistibly drawn to attractive members of the sex of our preference. What is the harm in admiring an especially beautiful example? Not to sound catty, but I have found in my 30 years that the women who tend to get the most indignant are either horribly insecure or downright jealous of the beauty of other women. Granted, some of the crap out there is abhorrent.....but not all of it. You don't tend to see guys getting all uptight about their women checking out the hardbodies in a magazine or going to Chippendales shows or dancing with the stripper at a bachelorette party.....it's because in most cases guys know that such things are merely visual diversions and not a threat to their own sexual appeal.

My guess is that there is so little for women because women just don't want it. I'm always hearing about how guys are so "visual" and really like to *see* women naked or scantily clad or whatever. I personally could think of 1,000,000 things I'd rather look at than a naked man who isn't my husband. It just does not appeal to me in the least. I don't even want to see guys dancing around in speedos (YUCK -- I don't ever want to see guys in speedos, anywhere!) or underwear or anything. I would never go to a strip club to see guys taking it off because that is just more information than I ever want.

I know there are women who do like it, but I have talked to other women about this, and most of them have agreed with me. What do you all think?

Truthfully, I think its all in fun. If you like it you do, if you dont you dont.
I was on a swim team so guys in speedos dont bother me (and some looked really good in them, im sorry im all about the athletic type)

Moxie...
but a lot of time in playboy they are positioned in a way that you can't see the um...goodie bag. So the mystery is still there. And sometimes, you like to slove the mystery

Valkyrie, you are right about the fact that not as many women are into the whole visual, right-in-your-face thing as men are.....BUT believe me, there are a lot of women who do like to see it and like someone else said, it's all in fun. I think also that a lot of women have just been conditioned to believe that it isn't "womanly" to be into such things, that the "baser" things in life are natural to men but not to us.....I think a lot of women are embarrassed by their own feelings and would sit there through a striptease blushing and avoiding making eye contact with the guy even if they were enjoying what they were seeing.

A lot of people are kind of getting upset by this whole thing and it is getting a little bit off track. Something that is important to remember is that although there are basic components of morality, it isn't something that is so cut and dried. And certainly, the ideals and moral standards that were in place back when most of our sororities were founded are dramatically different than those in convention today. I don't think any national chapter would be thrilled to have one of their girls doing a tasteless nudie layout and flashing her letters.....I was one of the first to say on this thread that my chapter, Chi Omega, would almost certainly revoke the membership of someone who posed if they found out about it. But to try and make general moral judgments here is out of line. I think it's great that people are so proud of their chapters and that they take the standards of conduct seriously....but not only are these standards subject to interpretation some of them simply don't hold up anymore. Can any of us honestly say that our members are all abstaining from premarital sex? Can any of us say that we don't have sisters who are fabulous assets, great students, etc. but who have engaged in a purely physical one-night fling? Can any of us say that among our numbers there aren't sisters who drink (underage or otherwise,) smoke, or engage in various vices that might be considered questionable?
Art is so very subjective that it isn't worth the time for us to try and hash it out on a GC thread....you will never, ever get everyone to agree on clearly defined peramaters of what is art and what is not. It's all about how a certain piece speaks to you....in his own day Picasso was considered by some to be an aberrant weirdo creating trash, not art. It isn't our place to try and say what is art and what isn't. If someone finds artistic value in something, that's all it is about.
I know I am getting long-winded here, but I just hate to see little flames sparking between people....there seems to be a definite division here, with two distinct "teams" emerging, and that isn't really a great thing. We've all got our own opinions, and none of us are going to make the things we don't like go away. Such is the society we live in. As long as there are hundreds of thousands of young women submitting pictures of themselves trying to get into Playboy, Playboy (and other publications like it) will continue.
I would like to offer one item for thought.....I am a mother. I have a beautiful little girl who is only getting more beautiful as she grows. One look at her tells you that she is going to be an absolute stunner when she grows up. I can't say that I'm sorry about this. Like it or not, beauty equals power in our society. We hear all the time about how men are exploiting women as sex objects, but in truth often it is the women using the power of their beauty to their advantage. I've got to say, I worry about a lot of things that are wrong with our world today as far as it will affect my daughter and son. But I worry about the safety of my daughter's "morality" far more in the setting of a fraternity party with her sisters surrounded by cute, horny, drunk boys than I do in her being self-assured enough to pose for a tasteful Playboy spread. Her virtue is in a lot more danger in that creaky loft than it is smiling out from the pages of a magazine.
Now let's all be friends again and let it go......by the way, anyone know if the girl who started this went for it or not?

33: I see what you are syaing, but see how she didn't mention she was in a certian group but we all assume she was an ASA b/c someone said so...and then it all began, no matter what group, she could really be a KD for all I know, but regardless it isn't the best impression for any NPC group. NPC groups have a hard enough time trying to show the serious side of sorority life without Animal House issues interfering and a playboy layouts of our members do not help our image as a serios part of society. When was the last time you saw in the local paper "Playboy Bunnies Feed the Homeless"...not too often. BUT I SEE YOUR POINT!

EricaXO: I agree we need to move on! but I still stand by the difference b/w art and pornogrphy. Picaso wasn't selling pictures behind a 711 counter with brown bag covers next to an issue of Jugs. And NO, we cannot police 160,000+ members , nor would I want to feel like we needed to but I hope that for the majority we were serious when we took our KD pledge to uphold our membership to the best of our abilities. Pre marital sex and so on isn't a public display distributed around the country. BUT WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT AND THAT'S WHY THE WORLD IS SUCH A FUN PLACE!


By the way, can someone explain how a half naked women, in bad shoes, on a kichen table next to an apple pie is taseful portrayal of women...I am sure the other pictures were more exciting but that's the only one I saw.

Where is the girl who started this whole thing anyway?

Can a woman walk down the road wearing no shirt and showing off her boobies? No.....she'd get a lot of crazy looks if she did. So, IMHO, that's nudity and not for everyone to see!

And I also think that the "mystery" should only be uncovered in private by a man who cares about a woman and vice versa. Call me old-fashioned.

For example.... ladies, what do you think when you see the "Girls Gone Wild" stuff? I mean, that is mostly breasts. Personally, I think "Drunk, white trash."

LexiKD: What about the classic "woman with fake boobs dressing up like a little girl even though she's about 35 and sucking on a lollipop." :rolleyes:

Girl's Gone Wild
 

Ok, because this thread is getting way to long as it is, and the girl who started this playboy topic seems to have popped off the face of the earth (we probably scared her to death), if its ok... im going to continue the girls gone wild topic in chit chat if its not already there :)

I worked for Tri Delta's National Headquarters and there were two women who posed and said they were DDD's. Their membership was revoked Nationally, and yes...we got a copy of Playboy, and checked it out.

Those were some not so bright Tri Delts. They might have gotten away with it if they didn't mention it.

Amen Brother :)

Maybe they thought they would get more publicity if they mentioned their sorority.

Playboy...
 

I haven't read all the numerous posts, but I wanted to give you my 2 cents.

At my chapter, Cal Poly-SLO, a Theta sister posed in the 1999 edition of College Playboy and was quickly terminated soon after. Our chapter freaked out after finding out that she had posed, Nationals wasn't too happy...termination was the final decision.

I don't know what your Nationals might think, but it grounds for termination...watch out and be careful.

Were they good pictures?:)

LOL! When I first read that, I thought that you were talking about their bra size DDD! :p

haylee...my advice before you go through with this is...think about your sisters and the embarassment etc that it may bring to them, your reputations and your chapters well-being. in my chapter we are always reminded that when you are part of an organization that everything you do reflects not only on you but those around you as well. if you are pretty enough for playboy then you're pretty enough for glamor, vogue and cosmo...no that is something that a chapter can be proud of!

The 2001 issue is already out, so if she did it she would be in it. I haven't personally looked at it, but many of my boyfriends' brothers have the issue. I don't know if any of them mention being in a sorority or not. I'm guessing if she did it she doesn't want to tell us in case she could be kicked out of her sorority, or she didn't do it because we scared her away!;)

That Asian chick in the new magazine is nasty.

Ahhh, that's just too bad that you feel that way about your own sister......

Are you talking about Kiana???? My God, she has an absolute PERFECT body (even if her boobs are obviously fake.) It's nice for once to see a woman in there who actually worked at her body instead of just getting it airbrushed. What about her do you think is nasty? (I must admit the platinum blonde streaks in her hair were pretty tacky....)

From what I got from the Alligator article, Phi Mu made her turn in her pin and she was in the College Special Editon not the SEC edition. But this month's playmate Lauren Anderson is from UF, she's been in a couple of my friend's classes.

If I had the body I'd pose for Playboy but I don't think they'll be banging down my door anytime soon. I see absolutely nothing wrong with a woman posing for Playboy. I don't think that posing nude makes you less of a woman or degrades an individual. Some people are very proud of their bodies and love to show them off. I'm not going to get into the discussion of what is "art" and what is not but I see no difference between a nude body in Playboy and a nude painting hanging in an art gallery...both have been airbrushed or had their flaws fixed :)

People need to get over being ashamed of the human body. My God we basically all have the same parts...besides the basic male/female differences and the fact that some people are a little bit more enhanced than others.

Yes, I do see a difference between Playboy, Penthouse, and Hustler. All I can say is that some magazines display more tasteful photographs.

If one of my sisters posed for Playboy I would be very supportive of her as would the majority of my sorority. We wouldn't regard her as a slut.

And yes, some people do actually read Playboy for the articles. I have read Playboy before. My dad had a gay male friend that picked up a Playboy while he was at his house and started reading it. My dad asked him what he was looking at (since he was gay) and my dad's friend told him that he liked to read if for the articles and because a lot of the male models in Playboy were his friends.

If you don't like any form of nudity nobody is making you look at it or buy it...so get over it!

Posing for Playboy
 

After reading this thread I was working on a balanced reply that I hoped would address the issues of freedom, personal rights, taking responsibility for one's actions, considering the feelings of others, honoring the ideals of your house, being true to yourself, being protective of your house's reputation, and so on and so forth... and then my sister (looking over my shoulder as I scrolled through to see if I had covered all the important bits) said the one word I had not seen anywhere in this discussion. "Tacky!"
Woah, think I'll just pipe down in the face of eloquence.

AOX81,

Ver well said. Its endlessly amazing how some people want to spend their time telling other people how to run their lives according to their hang-ups.

I watched that show on Fox where they competed for the July Playmate and I couldn't believe Lauren Anderson won. I thought for sure that Shallan girl was going to win, but I would be willing to bet good money that she will be a playmate SOON. We just got our July issue and I noticed that NEXT month's playmate is Christina, the dark-haired girl who was one of the 3 finalists (for those who don't read Playboy, the last page always gives the scoop on the following month's issue including the name of the next playmate.) So she didn't "lose" after all.

Lauren was so obnoxious and whiny. I could barely stand to listen to her go on about "poor me, I have big, droopy, real breasts and it's a disadvantage......waaaaaahhh." Somehow she got it in her head because a number of the other finalists had implants that defied gravity she was somehow getting slighted. Um, hello???? They got implants trying to look like you!!!!!! Duh! Unfortunately, the perkiness of your boobs is directly proportionate to the amount of skin you have there. A girl who is going from an A or B cup doesn't have a whole lot of skin there to start with, so naturally they aren't going to droop no matter HOW big you make them. Anyway I was disappointed that she won. Actually the best-looking girl there was Carmella from Cleveland who dropped out and went home before they even got started.

Ok, here's the way that I see it. If you want to pose for Playboy go ahead and do it. But if you choose to do that, be prepared for the consequences good or bad. If that means losing your pin then so be it. It was your choice to pose and no one else's. Even if you don't say that you were in a sorority, there are people out there that know that you are in a sorority. Yes, you do represent your sorority with or without your letters on. The only thing that I can tell you to do is to weight your options before you do anything that you might regret. I hope that you make the right decison for you.



Dove Gal
Sigma Kappa