cool, just stop speaking for "We" and only speak for "I" thank you very much.
I'm not bothered at all, I just think you're participating in the sexism inherent in our culture.

You're not? Huh, news to me. Anyway, that's nice, but you didn't seem to expect being offered anything special for you and only you either.

Or he erases her father's last name and replaces it with his own symbolically passing ownership of the chattel that is now his.

No, that's not really what modern people feel about the issue but it is a valid interpretation. I'm amused that moving in with the man is what the woman can offer in exchange for his name. At least you're not insisting on her offering her virginity. At least. Or something.

But you know kids these days, I'm amused you dropped that line altogether.

So why are you ragging on other people's relationships then, or is it only OK if you judge them (and the kids these days) but not OK if you're judged.

Duh.
I'm for it, if people want to do it. I don't see it as particularly harmful, nor do I see marriage as the ultimate goal of all relationships. But to each their own.

/i know you said most, just wanted to put that out there.

I'm kind of pondering what, if anything I'll do, but it depends on how things develop.

You forgot your name! You'll have to offer her your name!

Oh, thanks a lot. Now I'm going to go to bed with Monty Python running through my head: "Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed."

Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

...

Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!

Oh, go away or I shall taunt you a second time! (Or at least say "Ni" to you.)

But what is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person. I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur-king, you and all your silly English kaniggets. Thppppt!

What do you mean? An African or European swallow?
What a strange person.

Listen. In order to maintain air-speed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?

long post alert/

I think the context of this thread is couples that are thinking longterm and at least one person is hoping there will be a marriage, even if it is in the very distance future.

If we were talking about couples that aren't thinking marriage and at least one person isn't even secretly hoping to marry the other person, I'd say cohabitation may work as long as they are old enough and mature enough to share such a big responsibility with a significant other. I would recommend that they think about the logistics of it all (what the future holds, whether they want dependents, economic stuff, property stuff). If they are going into it blind and thinking love conquers all, I'd say spare themselves and everyone else the pain and keep their own living space.

It's funny because I have a friend who has lived with her significant other for about 8 years. We have discussed this topic numerous times over the years and her comments have predictably changed from "I don't want to get married, I just want to shack" to "I've been thinking more about marriage and whether I want children." I just say "uh huh."

On the other hand, I have about 5 colleagues ages 35-60 yo who have significant others, and a few of them have children together, that they've lived with for 10+ years. These people never intended to get married and they haven't waivered. They are considered a cohabitation success story but also could be considered a failure for the sanctity of marriage because they are "playing house."

/long post alert

^^^Oh stop it, you're always trying to lecture somebody. I fart in your general direction.

/trying to drag Phil into the good-natured Python-style ribbing

If my husband gave me his pogs collection....oh boy. He could ask me for just about anything. :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwESraWEpSU

Eh this thread lost its context quite a ways ago. I still have no issue with cohabing itself. Do I think it's always wise? No. But neither do I think that maintaining separate residences is either.

Marriage itself works the same way though.


The concept of the sanctity of marriage in a civil sense is bullshit, in my humble opinion. Marriage can be sacred in a religious or spiritual sense, but the government doesn't and shouldn't give a shit. And if I don't belong to a particular belief structure, they should keep their noses and butts out of my private life. And that's true whether I am open about my life or not.

I have many friends who have been handfasted as a legal ceremony or instead of a legal ceremony and the sacredness, the sanctity, of their relationships is no more or less than any other religious ceremony. But neither is the triad who are all three handfasted to each other.

Oh no, no, no. The correct response is: "What? I don't know that! Aggggggggh!"

After you have been jettisoned off of the Bridge of Death, Sir Bedevere would ask how I know so much about swallows, to which I would have to reply "Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know."

Now it's off to bed for me -- alas, without any of the peril.

I know the right response, but I didn't want to get thrown off a bridge. :(

Can't i just face a little peril?

No, it's too perilous.

Fetchez la vache!

I don't think so.

Of course but I'm talking about cohabitation.

Ah perhaps that was just MC and I's detour down the crazy train then.

I know you're talking about cohabitation, but the concepts you're discussing aren't unique to it, obviously. The alternative to cohab is a) living apart and b) marrying at any given moment. (A could lead to B later but you're doing one or the other.)

The only scenario without the concerns you mentioned is living apart. That however brings its own concerns and an increase in expenses on top of it. I think even very unprepared people can make cohab, just like a marriage, work. And some very prepared people will just discover that they cannot get along, again, same as marriage.

As a co-habiter pre-wedding, I didn't expect anything to change post-wedding. But it did. It felt different.
Saying those legally binding vows out loud in front of all our family and friends was definitely an unforgettable memory and experience. And cohabitation didn't take anything away from our marriage.

Since we're having so much fun around here, I'll just leave this here.

Lol, I don't have a diamond and I proposed to my own boyfriend. Do you think the sky will fall in?

My mother didn't take my father's last name and they have been married for 31 years. It hasn't effected their marriage, my mother actually gets annoyed when called Mrs. ______. She tends to correct those who assume that is her name. They thought the hyphen would be too long.

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. The only time I would disagree would be with heirloom rings. This entire buying new rings and the pressure is ridiculous. I'm not trying to educate everyone on my family's traditions, but one thing I have always really liked is that we pass down jewelry. While the entire, "may I take your daughter's hand in marriage" thing is crap (IMHO), I like the idea of the parent's welcoming in the significant other. My mother gave my brother a family jewel to make into a ring for his wife. My father took one of his grandmother's necklaces to make into a ring for my mother (it was actually cheap this way too since they were broke and my dad had a friend who did metal work). These have been two of the most interesting rings I have ever seen and they work as a wedding band as well.


Not disagreeing with stats or anything, but a rather large portion of my family (ie my parents, older cousins etc) all lived together before they were married. When I decided to move in with my boyfriend, I talked it over with my parents first. While I don't "have a ring on my hand" as someone said before, there has to be an understanding. My wording isn't correct right now, but it is a term my mother used. Back in the day (both my parents are over 60) there was going steady or whatever, but eventually there was an understanding as to where the relationship was going. My grandfather went off to war and while my grandparents weren't engaged, there was an understanding that if he made it back, they would get married. While one don't have to be in a rush to get married, or maybe that isn't one's cup of tea, I think that has to be an agreement. A lease is a contract. Duh. If the relationship isn't long term (or even going to last the length of a six month lease) then you have to double think that. Breaking leases/subletting isn't fun.

Also going back to the OP, shacking and moving in have huge differences. This coming from a girl who just did that switch.

I also think that we don't need to talk about divorce like it is a shameful, terrible thing.

Does it suck? Yes, possibly more than any other life change. Is it a personal failure? No.

Different story if you have kids, of course, but if you are in a relationship for years, and then it ends, well, I don't think it's futile to say you never should have been in the relationship to being with.

1) Your username pretty much gave away the fact that you're not a man.

2) You think a man "offering" his last name to a woman is a huge gesture? Is it just me, or does it seem like in this regard, the woman wants to be known as his wife moreso than the man wants to be known as her husband? A man has the same name his whole life, regardless of whether or not he's married (except maybe in some rare cases). A woman goes through the trouble of changing her name, essentially bonding herself to her husband.

For example, if I walked up to two different people - Joe Smith and Nancy Jones - who I knew from high school, but they didn't remember me, and each of them introduced themselves... Joe first.. "Hi, I'm Joe Smith" ... and Nancy said, "Hi, I'm Nancy Brown" ... who do you think I'd be more inclined to ask, "Oh, so you're married?.."

LOL.

I'm going to marry you for your pogs.

My dad keeps telling me that live-in and I need to get married so that we "have the same last name." I told him I intend to change my last name to "Awesome" and my middle name to "Is" and he can kiss my ass. Trust me, live-in's last name is no gift.

KSig, I'm serious here. You're around flaunting yourself, trying to cause trouble for me with my love of MC. Stop it.

GreekGirley is really setting herself up to be a statistic...

If you go into marriage thinking it's this wonderful, magical, story book happening, you're going in with totally wrong expectations that your poor future husband will never live up to. He's not coming home from work every day on his white horse, regardless of whether he did so (and which address he went to) during the courtship/engagement. Even saying that the marriage should have something "special" tells me that you have an immature view of marriage. There is no magic in marriage. There is, however, plenty of work, hardship, sacrifice, tears, and heartache. The ones that survive are the people that accept it, and decide that sharing their life with someone they love is ultimately more important and worth it.

Yeah, but I've already given my last name to someone else.

I'm under the understanding that men can give their last name to multiple people. Do your kids have your last name? Man's gift to woman is neverending, apparently. But as soon as I live with you, I'm sucked completely dry.

Oh well. I've already laid out my plan for name changes after marriage. This could totally work!

So true. I have no fondness for "marriage." Divorce is a necessary evil that is no ones' business but the couple involved. I have a commitment to my husband that started before our marriage. The marriage made it official legally and makes it easier to buy property, etc. Did it change the level of commitment we already had? No. Do I work to keep our relationship strong because of a societal institution? No. I do it because I value my husband, his love and our lives together. The "marriage" is nothing but window dressing on the relationship beneath. The relationship has been going strong for 10 years, the marriage 8.

I believe this is only possible for terrorists or Mormons. So basically terrorists.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!

This is something I learned a long time ago - that when both people want the exact same thing out of a relationship (be that marriage, babies, cohabiting, or just some sexy fun times) it will be full of awesome. The non-awesomeness comes when the two people aren't on the same page and can't talk it out to get there/don't want to try to get there.

Yay, yay, yay! A chance for me to quote from Elsa Maxwell's Etiquette Book, copyright 1951.

A friend's woman apparently bitched about the first ring he gave her and had him go back and get a bigger one. Not coincidentally they're probably getting married in Vegas because no one can stand her/wants to come to the wedding.

^^I ended up getting the garnet and amethyst heart ring that I posted awhile back to replace the diamond wedding ring I lost. I get way more compliments on it than I ever did on my diamond and I love how personal it is.