Hahaha, that's like the CC who came to my school and couldn't believe we wore SHORTS to the football games.

Um, he's probably that guy? PROBABLY? No... Definitely. He doesn't get it, and he never will. At first I thought he just didn't want to admit that he was wrong, but now I know he's just that ignorant.

I say everyone ignore everything dnall says, no matter what thread we're in. Maybe he'll go away...

I understand, but that cuts both ways.

Chapter size has no correlation to member dedication! In either direction.

You can have non-committed members in a small chapter or all dedicated members in a larger org. The two things have nothing to do with one another.

The only difference is if everyone in a 20 man chapter isn't dedicated, you feel it fast. Whereas an under performing larger org has some breathing room. But, a larger org maximizing their capability has to be totally dedicated or their events fail just as easily as a small orgs do.

It took me a while after college to figure this out. But, survival isn't an achievement. Just doing "good enough" isn't okay.

The further you are from that survival line, the more freedom you have to accomplish your dreams. The limitation on the top side is resources, and that mostly comes down to money & manpower.

I'm really glad you said all that, because I agree with you. I just have a little bit different angle on it.

We agree absolutely the goal is member development. Lets talk in those terms.

I agree with your percentages to President. That's just a position. It's not the pinnacle of development. If we're only successfully "developing" presidents or even people with positions, then we've massively failed.

In a 20man chapter, everyone has a position, and if someone screws up you know it real quick. In a 100 man chapter, there might be 20 people on exec and a dozen committees with 5-10 people on each one of them. When someone screws up, you still know it, but they have more backup focused intently on each thing - that's a margin for error.

I also agree philanthropy is a development opportunity.

The 20man org all-hand-on tournament is developmental, agreed.

BUT, a large chapter can do say 5 of those a semester, with a dif cmte each semester, and supported by the 60-80-100 man chapter.

Is 100% of the larger chapter "developed" through every single event? No. But, by doing 10 events run by two cmtes & supported by most of the chapter, did you just develop more people and give them 10 times the experience? Absolutely!

But, a 100man chapter probably isn't going to do 10 of those type events. They're going to do maybe 4-6/yr. What they're going to do on top of that is 1-2 massive events that the smaller chapter doesn't have the money/manpower to be remotely capable of.

That big event (ex - raising 10-50k+) will be of such size and complexity that it requires massive effort from most of the chapter. Rather than limiting our members to mom&pop level development, we just created a multi-million dollar corporate deal level development opportunity. The leadership, mgmt, budget, etc are all ramped up to that level.

Besides philanthropy, an org is going to be doing what: a couple parents, couple alumni, and that 14-20 social events a year, plus homecoming, greek week, and all the normal chapter positions. All on the larger scale with a bigger budget and requiring different committees, being developed though experience, to pull off each one.

It's okay that not every member is developed in every event. I think it's better actually. It gives them some freedom to work on the things that inspire them, be that philanthropy or social or whatever else.

At the end of the day, you can argue that the individual development in the 20 man chapter is more complete, & some fall through the cracks in a large org. That's highly debatable on both sides. But, I would rather 90% develop 55 of 60 total members than 95% develop 20 of 20 members. It's not perfect, but the net impact on the world is bigger when you develop more people.

The mission of the org (I would presume all orgs) is to develop a lot of people at the undergrad level so they can go do whatever the org is about in the real world beyond. I'm not saying you're not doing that at the 20 member level, but you're not doing very much of it. You're not reaching your potential as a chapter. And that's why a chapter like that needs to grow.

This is a complete lie.

I've NEVER heard of our IFC (6000 person campus, 10% Greek) giving two shits how many guys were in a chapter as long as they fulfilled their requirements to remain in good standing. No one has ever mentioned such a thing on GC, either. The only org I've ever heard of giving a shit about numbers once you were chartered is Sig Ep (and I can gather, ATO).

And yeah DBB, I totally want to set him up on a date with the chapter consultant who bemoaned our "casual" dress (when it rains or snows 6.8 days out of 7, I'm not going to class in silk dress pants and $200 flats).

Caldernit, dnall! tl;dr

You've seen a lot of NIC groups stay open more than a year with 10-15 guys? I promise you it's real, and normally written as standard to remain in good standing.

For example (first result for IFC bylaws on google): Nebraska (30 member min): http://www.unl.edu/greek/ifc_bylaws18.shtml

Citation?

This is common in a couple of regions. I know of chapters that in a 15 to 20 year history have never had more than 25 actives at a time.

3 or 4 on my campus for just as many years.

IF YOU DO NOT DEVELOP YOUR PEOPLE THE WAY I THINK IS BEST YOU ARE FAILING. FAILING SIR.

I SAID GOOD DAY.

LOL!

Sorry all, edited to add the example after your posts. My bad.

I thought about this after I posted. ;)

DNALL WINS.

They can head over to the U of I Greek Week, and clutch their pearls in shock when they realize nobody shows up. Yes, that's right, the biggest greek system in the country doesn't give a shit about greek week*. Can you believe that? They have an ATO chapter that doesn't do stuff like show up to greek week! It's almost as though the greek systems on different campuses have different priorities!

*This may have changed in the last decade, I suppose, but while I was in school, NOBODY showed up to greek week events unless they were IFC/PHC officers. I didn't even go when I was chapter president.

No, you PERSONALLY perceive having a smaller chapter to be a disadvantage and a concern. Again, just because YOU think it is cause for concern doesn't mean that his chapter feels the same way. No amount of faulty statistics or faulty logic that you spew is going to change that.




...and yes, Dnall is indeed "THAT GUY"--probably within his fraternity, at the workplace, at the bar, etc.

Okay.

I explained some common sense disadvantages to small chapters. It's all common sense and very straight forward.

The response so far, other than personal attacks, has been:

First, your small chapter is/was in your personal view perfectly fine - very few of those being NIC orgs. That applies to all campus situations just as poorly as any complaint against the stuff I said. Both are to some extent generalizations. If we're only going to comment on things that involve our own campus and council then there's not going to be much conversation around here.

And second, that it's a broad generalization to assume small chapters are in any way less capable (despite less money/manpower) than large orgs. That in itself relies on a broad generalization that members in larger chapters are by default less dedicated or involved than peers in smaller chapters. Having seen all ends of that spectrum, I would strongly dispute that.

At minimum, none of that is any better than any logic I used.

If you disagree with my opinion, that's your prerogative. You're free to state your own opinions and the OP can decide for himself. Unless you think it's better if we always all agree and tell everyone they're perfectly fine no matter what their situation or there's some very narrow circumstance under which they'd be okay so all cases like that are okay regardless of circumstance. I think it's probably better to have some diverse opinions though. Keeps things just a little bit less boring.

The OP (who seems to have disappeared) never said he's a TKE. He didn't identify his fraternity, nor did he say where he is. Are you maybe confusing him with HawaiiTKE, who posted questions about expanding Greek life at his school around the same time as the OP posted this question?

You're right. Thanks for pointing that out. My bad.

The OP does however say 23 actives plus 12 pledges & he's still a pledge as of very recently (someone crossed in winter? quarter system maybe?), while other chapters appeared to be 50-60.

So, yeah maybe he's wrong and average chapters are in their 30s where he's at. Maybe his national and school don't have any rules about low member levels. Maybe his school doesn't have a lot of rules about how they can do socials and very little enforcement, so they can get away with murder on the way cheap. If all that's true then, while I still think it's dangerous and not good for the chapter, then might be okay.

That said, I still stand by all the stuff I said about super small chapters. It's not a good thing. There is too much risk of it falling apart, and not enough resources or capability to reach the potential of your members.

I've clearly said orgs can be too large as well, and that the right number range for a happy medium is a wide expansive gray area definable by the particular campus. But, don't let any of that be an excuse by the chapter to say they're super exclusive and are small because they want to be. That's virtually always denial.

23 people plus 12 pledges (that makes 35) is not "super small" if the other groups are 50-60. 8 members and 2 pledges would be super small in that environment.

This chapter is obviously not averse to growing or they wouldn't have taken 12 freakin' pledges. For them to take more than that at once at their present size would be crazy - unless the current members are completely burnt out, don't want to do anything and are quite willing to have someone initiate on Friday and be elected president on Sunday.

Wow, I didn't expect my thread to spark such a huge debate. Anyway, our pledge class went down to 10. One dropped because his girlfriend didn't approve of the idea and the other for family issues. I am in a NIC fraternity for those that are wondering.

The quality of my fraternity is excellent. Although we are not quite as large as others our participation from actives, alumni, and pledges is phenomenal. Currently, we're in first place in points for greek week, one of our brothers placed in the top 5 for some Sorority's model competition, and as a group we've already lowered our dues by doing a fundraiser event. Also, I'm pretty sure our numbers will naturally go up next year considering only about 2-3 actives are graduating after our Spring quarter.

So far I'm enjoying being in this fraternity and the quality of the brothers far outweigh how many people there are.

And here, my friends, is what really matters.

Go out and enjoy your new brotherhood. It sounds like you're having a great time already!

Good. I'm glad for you. It's awesome that you found the place where you fit best and that the chapter is motivated and trying to do good things.

You're still a relatively small chapter. You're at 33 counting pledges, minus how ever many are graduating/leaving, so probably 25ish coming back into Fall rush.

I don't think it's necessary to ask you what your active dues are, but being a small chapter means you're going to have very limited money/manpower. That puts some major limitations on the good things you're able to accomplish. Everyone wants freedom from those kind of restrictions so they can achieve bigger better things. I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't know when I say you want to grow your chapter.

My advice on how to do that is year round out of the box recruiting. Make friends with the non-greek leaders and quality guys on campus. Send your guys (esp younger ones) home over summer with a mission of making friends with at least one guy from their high school that's coming to school there. It's not about rush at this point, it's just about making friends. Come orientation and the beginning of school, get those new friends around the chapter and express how much it means to you. Your older guys will be better at selling them on going greek and your org in particular. You'll get better at that with practice.

When fall rush comes around, you should have around 50% of what you normally take already locked up. Just hold onto them while you run your normal rush and you'll end up pulling 125-150% of what you normally do. And, those will be quality guys that fit will with your chapter.

With your numbers up just a little bit, you're going to see you have exponentially more resources to accomplish all the things you want, the chapter will stay closer to the high you're on now rather than have big up and down swings, and you'll have some breathing room so that everything doesn't always have to be perfect for it to work.

Right now though, you're a pledge. I'm glad you're thinking about the long term and believe in your fraternity, but for a little while longer you need to just stay motivated and focused on the things they're trying to teach you. Hold your pledge class together and get to the other side. You'll understand a lot more when you've seen your initiation, and when you get to see how the chapter really works as an active. It's likely different than you think now from your perspective, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Good luck!!

Oh my God. Just stop. I think he already saw everything else you posted in this thread, and he very subtly told you that you're wrong.

Move along.

He said they only have 2-3 brothers graduating, so that would be more like 30 coming back in the Fall. He also that the chapter "isn't quite as large as the other chapters," which seems to be a little different from the impression he said he got from rush, where he "thought" most chapters hovered around the 50-60 range.

Abitworried, glad you're enjoying your experience and your new fraternity so much!

Seriously. I'm saying nothing negative to the kid at all.

I said situation X = disadvantages Y. This should motivate you to recruit your ass off to reach situation X+whatever. I'm EXTREMELY confident his chapter, and probably he, agrees with that position.

And just in case you're curious:

http://thefraternityadvisor.com/12-r...rnity-to-grow/

http://thefraternityadvisor.com/10-s...9s-rush-sucks/

http://www.ato.org/AlphaTauOmega/dow...cruitment.aspx

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...&condition=new

Stop being stupid. Seriously. If you don't get it now, it's because you're deliberately trying to be stupid.

24 of my current caseload of 25 clients would have gotten this by now. Suffice to say the supposed educational and socioeconomic advantages you've had over them leaves you with little to no excuse.

ETA: Just in case you're curious: http://goo.gl/Ledwg

Is that an assumption or just a broad generalization?

Did you come out of a small chapter, moderate, or big? Have you run chapters in multiple different campus environments? Have you run a greek system, or been a national officer, or been a paid consultant to fix chapters and greek systems, or spent time with nearly a hundred chapters? There might be a few circumstances here and there maybe where I might sometimes have a clue what the hell I'm talking about.

But, you keep telling everyone they're perfect no matter what size, income, resources, capabilities or anything else. Cause all that really matters is that you're tight with your friends right? Whatever. Have a nice night.

People have said brotherhood/sisterhood is the most important part of the Greek experience, but I don't think anyone has said everyone is perfect just the way they are.

Saying that you keep overgeneralizing, saying that you're assuming way more than the OP actually said, and saying that the advice you're giving is not universally applicable or universally relevant is not the same as saying everyone is fine just the way they are, nor is it the same as saying that you never have a clue what you're talking about.

Reading is f'ing fundamental.

"Unless" and "if" are qualifying words. That means, if circumstances other than those delineated in the sentence exist, the conclusion of the sentence will vary.

If he would have said "we have a 50 person house to fill" or "national is threatening to shut us down if we don't get to 70 men" then our responses would have been far different.

BUT HE DIDN'T.

When he does, you can come on here and pimp your little books and all of ATO's obviously superior rush strategies to get a chapter from 5 to 200 until your balls fall off, and no one will contradict you.

Uhhh is there a campus where 50k events are the norm? On my campus one chapter has an event that notoriously raises about 20k, and we are a MASSIVE greek school. I know from national KD events we have chapters, very few, that raise in the 5-figures if you will, and i know that because they get national awards