say what now? I don't think anyone mentioned it in the expansion thread.

Not doubting you, just that I think this is the first anyone on GC has heard of it.

yup, Panhellenic just voted March 28. I should know, I voted! Panhellenic will begin the selection process in the fall and will be colonized fall 2013 following formal recruitment.

And I finished my paper and turned it in on time fwiw :)

grr my computer spazzed while I was writing this post and I lost everything I had written the first time, so here we go again. I finally read the entire thread.

First off, I don't think it's cool that people are jumping on SC2013 for not joining the chapter that offered her a bid. From lurking on here, I knew not to sign a bid card if I was not really ready to commit, and I wasn't, so I didn't sign a card, but I would have received a bid to the same house. That house is a wonderful house full of lovely women, but it is not the house for everyone, much like how my house is not the house for everyone, and Alpha Alpha Alpha isn't he house for everyone. I may have been happy had I joined that house, and she may have been as well, but I know now that I am incredibly happy where I am. My guess is SC2013 had similar qualms and wanted to investigate all her options (and I'm pretty sure she actually said something along those lines in one of her posts). Yes, we are only 18-19, but that doesn't mean we're not capable of making good/well-thought-out decisions. Every decision we make may not be the best, but we do know how to make important ones.

Also, concerning my house (SDT), we will eventually participate in formal, but we did not last year and will not next year for a variety of reasons. I don't know if I'm at liberty to discuss them all, but we're quite happy with the girls we've brought in from the last three pledge classes of COB, and we have grown considerably.

Ok, back to the thread. The part of my paper I was supposed to be writing was the conclusion, and I think I'll just post it here. The paper is about superficiality & tiers in the sorority system here. It's not the best thing I've written, and I definitely didn't spend enough time on it, but I think it addresses my point.
At the end of the day, though, the tier system shouldn’t really matter. One CollegeACB poster summed it up well, saying, “I think that my house is the absolute best house in the world, and I'm so glad I'm in it. I'm pretty sure other girls feel that way about their houses. So shouldn't that make every house a "top tier" house?” [there was a citation here but I removed it]. Hundreds of women go through recruitment to join a sorority to find their new sisters. Some women do join for the social opportunities, but women stay in their sororities throughout their time in college because they genuinely enjoy the company of their sisters. At the end of the day, sorority women are all pretty similar, and at the end of college, it won’t matter what house a woman was in, much less what “tier” the house belonged to. They are all sorority women, with all the good and bad connotations that brings. Likewise, at the end of the day, shallow judgments are irrelevant—people will ultimately become true friends with people whom they like, regardless of their social status or physical appearance. Yes, there will always be some people who only form fleeting friendships with other people from a similar echelon of society, but true friendship knows no barriers.

That's pretty much all I have to say for now... I already said everything else in post #79

Not that I don't appreciate your paper being about sorority life and tiers because it actually sounds pretty cool but, was it really a good idea to cite CollegeACB? You may as well reference Wikipedia, in my eyes.

haha my WRIT 140 teacher is fine with it, actually! I had to turn in the prompt with the paper, but it was about finding something that mirrors & magnifies social divisions if I recall correctly. I read her the first four pages or so, which were full of ACB citations and she had no problem with them. I wasn't presenting anything from ACB as objective fact, merely as anonymous opinions.

That's NOT what people are jumping on her for. People are jumping on her for this

and this

and this

and this.

It would be one thing if she was a freshman, but she's not. She rushed as a sophomore after seeing a year of this heinous, values-lacking behavior. She knew what she was getting into and was completely ok with the thought of prancing in a micromini - or she wouldn't have gone through rush. If people said anything about her not accepting her AXO bid, it was because they thought that she ignored a chance to try to change the system from the inside out - to try and attract like-minded individuals and create the kind of sorority she allegedly wants.

^^^THIS.

thank you once again, 33girl.

really? because this is what I saw:
From what I understand, Panhellenic did not do a good job informing girls about what it means to sign a bid card, and many girls (not just SC2013) walked away misinformed and disappointed. This hurts all the chapters that do COB. I'm not saying she should have not signed a bid card, but I know girls we can't recruit because Panhellenic told them, oh, just sign your bid card and see if you like it on bid night, girls who would have liked to go through informal recruitment with us.

I understand that people are jumping on her for what you pointed out as well, but as someone who's been jumped on for not clicking with that chapter, I know that it sucks being attacked by a lot of anonymous strangers for something you can't control. I wanted to fall in love with that house, and I'm sure she did too, but sometimes it just doesn't work out like that. There have been girls who I have wanted to fall in love with our house who end up joining their house, and I understand that that happens and it's not anyone's fault.

As a whole, this forum can be intimidating to me, I'm not going to lie. I don't know if SC2013 feels the same way, but this place is kind of overwhelming at times, especially when a bunch of people I don't know are convinced that I'm wrong even when I think I'm doing the right thing for me.

Sorry if you hate my post as well, I'm in a weird state of mind right now and am not presenting my thoughts as well as I could.

No, I don't hate your post, just trying to make you understand where people are coming from.

Again, she's a sophomore. She seems like a very bright one as well, and I don't think she was unaware that if she signed her bid card, she was bound for a year. The thing is though...once you've signed a bid card and are bound for a year, you might as well go to bid day. At least you'll get some free food out of it...at most you may be able to make connections outside the clusterfluff of rush and realize it wasn't as bad/awkward as you thought.

From her other thread, it seems like she tried to do what she thought would help her mathematically (for lack of a better way to put it) and it backfired.

As far as the posts you've quoted..."I went through rush and none of the sororities are living up to their values so I want to start my own" is a well-worn euphemism for "I didn't get a bid/got the wrong bid so I'll show them" around here. People have seen it a lot of times and are pretty cynical when someone says something along those lines. If she would have come on here and asked what the chances were of starting a new sorority at USC, that would have been fine. Her mistake was criticizing a system that not too long ago, she wanted very dearly to be a part of.

Yes, she's criticizing a system, but she obviously still wants to be a part of it. She wants to change it from the inside, but she didn't feel comfortable with the single option she had left. So, are her only options to either join Peggy Olson (even though she never felt like she fit in there) or just shut up about her concerns? It sounds like those posters who know the USC campus best have validated that there is a growing problem there. Wanting to help address the problem is a positive thing, and she's just trying to find another way to do that as an insider. I think you may have jumped the gun to paint her as sour grapes because she didn't get the bid she wanted. There's no evidence of that here.

She's criticizing the same system she wanted to be a part of, now all of a sudden "they" don't live up to 'their' values. Funny that. It may not be sour grapes, but it is certainly misplaced. She doesn't "know" anything other than the partying that happens on most college campuses. She has no idea whether Suzy miniskirt calls local businesses during the daytime to request donations for their silent auction for their philanthropy. Or whether Daisy Drank-too-much also volunteers at the homeless shelter. Or is top in her field of engineering and this party was letting off some serious steam.

Even if you can find terrible examples of greekdom on any campus, you can find exemplary examples on the SAME campus. OP painted the entire system with a broad brush despite her expressed desire to join it. And, no matter what she may think, any group she starts on campus is going to be drawn from the same pool of students. She is unlikely to magically attract the most selfless of all students and none of the 'bad apples.'

As a slightly different example, say that I had an opinion about OPhiA. They're not selective enough about grades. (making this up, obviously). I don't like this about your GLO, nationwide. It's a serious flaw and you should fix it. Alternatively since I'm not joining, and you won't fix it, I'm going to make a group and call it BetterthanOPhiA and we will have higher standards and be better and everyone will flock to us once they see we're right. A) You're going to be unimpressed by my demands in the first place, B) you might be mad or just not give a shit, c) no one else is going to flock to my banner and d) it's really dumb.

Yep. This is so prevalent, in so many ways. "Like hey dude, my friend is a Sigma Kappa at ABC U and her sisters are so totally hot. We need to bring Sigma Kappa to XYZ College so we can have a hot sorority instead of the crappy ones that are here now."

The girl version of the above is change "hot" to "nice" or "awesome."

As much as I'm sure our organizations would love to believe (and make everyone else believe) that their rituals and programs could magically transform every single girl who joins into the perfect woman...it just doesn't work that way. It's not like bringing a Nordstrom to a town full of Walmarts...and even if you do that, not all Nordstroms are created equal.

it's possible to want to be a part of Greek life at SC or even be a part of Greek life here and acknowledge that it has some flaws, particularly with the way Greeks are perceived. Our image is a major problem right now, and pretty much everyone here knows it. Yes, there are awesome people who have 4.0s/do tons of community service/etc, but right now at SC, that's not how most people see Greeks, especially in light of the whole sex-on-a-roof/viral email/tons of transports/social probation thing. It's hard to see past that into what Greek life really is occasionally, but I think SC2013 has to some extent, and that's why she wishes to join a sorority, despite all the image problems that come with Greek life as a whole at SC right now.

I don't want to sound super bitchy or whatever, but I think it's a lot easier to criticize her if you don't go to USC and aren't familiar with what's going on here right now. Like I've said many times before, I love my sorority and couldn't be happier, but I get where she's coming from.

The message she sent was that you and your sisters don't live up to your values. Everything else you're saying shows you're not getting what we're saying. Were she on my campus - one where I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge its flaws - I would expect no one to listen to her, or join her interest group.

lane swerve/

Am I reading this correctly? Is this a nonGreek criticizing Greeks and acting like she has the answers? Warning. Any member of a GLO who would agree with what this nonGreek is saying has completely missed not only what she is saying but also the tone and context.

If you see some issues with your GLO or with the Greek system at your school, you're an insider. Work towards change. Don't let a nonGreek be the voice of criticism and the leader for change. As far as I'm concerned, that's a good way to scare away prospective members. When you admit that you have issues and appear to be admitting that nonGreeks have it as, or more, figured out than you may, why would anyone want to join your GLO?


/lane swerve

You're reading it correcting, the fact that she was rushing is just a little gravy side note to the potatoes.

I know that GDI v. Greek, Tier debates, and partying happens at all schools, and that larger, establish Greek systems share similar problems and that USC is nothing unique.

I also personally feel that she should have taken her bid, because to succeed at USC (or any school) is all about Grades, Campus Involvement, Leadership training (in positions) and your support network (friends, family, sisters/brothers) and not because of which houses you are having BnBs or Exchanges with. You can really achieve and excel as a member of any GLO.

But I think that there may be genuine reasoning behind the OP in suddenly all being critical of a system she had seen for a year before she decided to go through recruitment.

This year seems to have been more aggressive in terms of behavior and 'Fratitude' or 'Sratitude' (to borrow a term), and I really think it is coming from certain individuals/groups on the Row who are trying to emulate the image/lifestyle represented on certain Greek-interest websites. The popularity of those websites has really blossomed in the past semester to maybe since the fall.

The Cocksman email, and then the rooftop incidents, while isolated cases, seem to be the straw that has broken the proverbial camel.

For someone on the outside looking-in, at the moment it looks like there is nothing Panhellenic/Interfraternal going on the Row. People up and down the row were so quick to criticize the Sorority who were hosting the Philanthropy event for being a house of sluts, when it turns out that the girl involved did not even go to USC and was a member of another GLO at another school! Everyday there appears to be a scandal of sorts relating to the Greek system that is coming out of the student body rumor-mill.

And the fact that the entire Row has been put on Social Probation seems to rubber stamp the negative views that Greeks are not doing things right.

Of course all the leaders in SC Greek community are trying their very best to turn it all around, and I am sure with the exception of a few bad apples, that every house's members are committed to the positives.

The Greek tradition at SC extends all the way to 1887, so I am sure it will survive this past semester, as it has done other scandals in the past. Hopefully the recovery happens sooner, in time for Fall recruitment.

The message I got is that it looks like Greeks as a whole aren't living up to their values. And I'm saying that I get where she's coming from. If I were to take a step back and try to look at Greek life with an outsider's perspective, I'd say she has a valid point. I am an insider, so to speak, though, so I know that we're more than that, but I get where she's coming from. Apparently I'm one of the only ones here who does, though.

Also, sidenote, but I think our chapter is doing a fine job of living up to "one hope of many people."

I don't think she would have much success starting a local only because of how unwilling girls would be to join a new sorority, much less one with no national affiliation. Many people have said things along these lines, and I agree with them.

Yes, she said some very harsh things about Greek life, but they're really not anything new. Yes, it hurts knowing that's what non-Greeks think of us, but that doesn't make them think any differently. And yes, we, as the USC Greek community, are working to change those perceptions, but it's not easy.

She didn't take her bid because of the chapter's reputation as being smaller, less-popular, whatever. Then she turned around and said, in essence, that she wanted to start a new chapter and affiliate with KD, because nobody is living up to their values. I'm curious which part of rejecting women based on gossip about tiers is "honorable, beautiful, and highest".

All Greeks includes you too.

And I don't think anyone here is shocked or hurt by what she said. Maybe USC Greeks are, but that suggests you were unaware of the problem until she so kindly told you what was wrong. It's not a matter of not getting where she's coming from. I get it. That doesn't make her any less condescending in the process.

LOL

I never got the impression that she didn't join the chapter because of its reputation, I got the impression that she didn't join them because she didn't connect with the girls.

That's a well known way of saying, "I'm too good for them."

To be fair, once in a while it means "that's the Jewish house". ;)

I just noticed that one thing that has been overlooked in this thread is that we all automatically think Greek = Social GLO. I know it is a pretty common subconscious mistake to make but we can't accuse the OP of being non-Greek.

However the criticism that she does not know what goes on within NPC (and NIC) orgs still stands.

It's a matter of lanes. She's in one lane commenting on another.

ok I'm going to go on the defense here. I didn't accept a bid to that same house because I didn't connect with the girls. I don't think I'm too good for them. There are some other houses where I probably wouldn't have accepted a bid because I didn't click with the girls in the "middle tier" and "top tier." I'm not a fan of the ranking/tiering system at all, but objectively speaking, it does exist. The fact that I didn't click with girls in some houses doesn't mean I think I'm too good for any of them, though.

And I'm sorry for equating Greek and PHC/IFC sororities & fraternities. That's definitely a misconception that exists here, and I feel bad about perpetuating it. It just seemed easier to say "Greek" rather than "PHC/IFC organizations."

It wasn't a specific criticism of you. I am just as guilty of it. I was merely pointing out that she was actually Greek.

The point is if she was THAT heinously uncomfy, she shouldn't have put them on the freakin' bid card. Once you sign that, in for a buck, in for a quarter. You might as well go to bid day and see if maybe the women are different once they exhale.

And again: not clueless freshman. Re-rushing sophomore.

As I said, Panhellenic didn't do a good job of informing girls about what to do with their bid cards. I think she probably should have suicided, an opinion that I know is pretty unpopular on here, but whatever. I think she should have. And I don't think she was re-rushing, I think she was rushing for the first time.

I'm confused. Did the OP make a sock to help stick up for her? It appears that way because I don't quite know why a member of the Greek system at USC would sit here, along with the OP, and agree that the Greeks are horrendous at USC. What? Are Kaeb and the OP besties, roomies, something? :confused:

As an alum of SC with a daughter who is in a house I would like to make a few comments. As I noted upfront (save for the new info that there may, in fact be a colony in a few years) it seemed very unlikely that a new house would come on the row with one girl's say so. I also said that the OP was wanted in the house where she received a bid, despite her misgivings about being wanted for her, not as a number.

What many people outside SC do not realize is that our recruitment is a very different animal. We are as competitive as the SEC (well, almost) but our girls are not generally rooted in Greek traditions. It is HIGHLY likely that 50 % of our pnms are non Greek. As I have stated, we do not have a network that gives pnms the 411 on recruitment. Many girls are really out of the loop. My older daughter LISTENED to her rho chi (and the official panhellenic line) about going to class. It was ok...provided you gave a copy of your schedule blah blah.....No, it wasn't ok. She was summarily dropped from all the houses that she would have seen on night one. It was no a coincidence. Had she known that I know now, she would have had a far better outcome. The whole Row knew my daughter as the girl who went to class rather than recruitment.

My second benefitted greatly from the information that I garnered from GC. Yet, she wasn't clear about ranking houses and what it meant. I told her, her rho chi gave her different information. I, thanks to you, was correct.

I do not know Kaeb or SC2013. They may or may not know each other, although Kaeb said she "knows" SC2013 and says she is nice. But I have no doubt, based on what my daughter mentioned to me, that she might have been given incorrect information.

.........the stuff about not living up to their mottos whatever.....you know the term deflection? The real issue has become what was she told/when and how and the disappointment, and to that I can address the issue. She probably didn't know.

wow.

I'm not SC2013's sock puppet account. I met her while rushing her professional fraternity. We have a few mutual friends, but I don't know her very well. Also, we had different recruitments, and both posted pretty detailed recruitment stories, so I don't know why you think I'm her sock puppet account. I'm my own person with my own brain and my own life and I'm also in a PHC sorority, as I've established many, many times.

Here's my recruitment story if you still don't believe me for some reason: http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...d.php?t=115609
Also, I joined in July 2010, she joined in December 2010... kind of weird timing for me to be her sock puppet, huh?

I'm not agreeing that the Greeks are horrendous at USC. I'm a Greek myself. I am saying that we have image problems, and that people, particularly non-PHC/IFC people, don't have a great image of us. It's easy to automatically associate PHC/IFC with all of the scandals that have happened recently, since they've gotten a lot of attention, not just on campus, but even nationally. I'm saying that I get where she's coming from, unlike most people (or so it seems). I also think that if she were in a PHC house, she would have a different perspective, but I get why she has the perspective she does.

I feel like a broken record here.

Sorry, I'd forgotten that she re-rushed. My apologies.

We do get it. Your school really isn't that unique. I don't know of a single big Greek competitive school where the non-Greeks don't loathe the Greeks and take every opportunity to kick them.

The OP had a friend in the chapter who gave her a bid, someone she felt close enough to confide in that she wanted them to drop her. That tells me she had something in common with sisters in that chapter because her friend does. Among other things, they probably aren't great rushers. (Who would be if you're the chapter where people would rather gouge their eyes out instead of joining?)

The OP may have only considered herself a number on Alpha Chi's bid list, but you know what? If that chapter had dropped her before pref, she would have just been a number on the chapter she wanted's bid list. Because she wasn't high enough on their first bid list to receive a bid without guaranteed placement. There were more pnms they wanted more than they wanted her. Harsh but true.

I know it is pretty common for non-Greeks and some administrations, to take a stab at the Greek community whenever there is an opportunity to.

The big problem with the current situation at USC, which I think makes it unique, is that this time, outsiders of our community can cite two incidents that made international news, within a month.

And as a result the administration has put the whole Row on social probation for bringing the school into disrepute.

Apparently you've never experienced things like pledges dying.

Really really that was an uncalled for snide remark. Thank God the reason for the social probation had NOTHING to do with a child dying. A death in any family, much less the death of a child is horrendous.

While I am not "sure" what the first issue was (but it did not, to my knowledge include death or nearly dying), I know that the second had to do with a lapse of judgement, morals and invasions of privacy. The incident did not prove fatal to anyone other than their reputations.

No I haven't. But I have had to deal with a friend who was run over by a drunk driver in an incident that is almost too horrific to remember.

And that time it showed how close our community was. We stood together, went to city hall, and got the reward money raised for information that lead to the arrest of the driver and the passenger (who stopped to pull off the body of another victim, who thankfully didn't die, and just left him on the side of the road as they drove off).

But I didn't bring it up because it was an awful experience, and it would not have been classy.

That was my point. Having experienced that horrible and avoidable situation on a campus and the aftermath, I find these 'but you don't understand' posts ridiculous.