Sidetrack...

I had no idea that it was possible to be shot in the head and still survive. I was extremely relieved to learn this, but I'm confused at how this actually works. Does anyone in the medical field know more about these types of situations?

/Sidetrack

I am not a physician, but I am a speech pathologist whose speciality area was working with individuals who had traumatic brain injuries. My 10 years experience spanned from ICU, to inpatient rehab, to outpatient/return to work rehab. I saw individuals with gun shot wounds daily.

People survive shootings every day, but "survival" should never imply "returns to normal function." That is a long and arduous road that many never see the end of. Being able to survive, and subsequently the level of functional recovery attained, has many factors:
--- gauge of the gun that was used
--- time post injury that someone was able to receive medical aid
--- amount of swelling in the brain that occurs before and after surgery
--- length of time in coma
--- trajectory of the bullet. Keeping the bullet on one side of the brain causes less damage than a bullet that crosses into the other hemisphere
-- location of the bullet/damage. Different areas of the brain are responsible for different cognitive and motor funtions, and depending on what specific areas were hit will impact the deficits that one has. It is possible to completely miss all key areas, but this would be the exception rather than the rule.
-- extent of the damage caused by the bullet and shattered bone fragments

By no means am I making ANY presumptions about this case. I wish nothing but the best for her. I just caution all who listen to media reports that individuals with brain injuries may be "raising two fingers" (blech!) as that sign does not mean anything in terms of long term recovery. I have seen some VERY imparied people raise their two fingers for the physicans. It means that one is alive and able to hear, but really means little in terms of *functional* recovery of someone with a brain injury. Have I seen individuals recover to the point of returning to their prior job? You bet. Have I seen many others who were required to live an adaptive lifestyle? Sadly, yes.

Again, not making ANY assumptions on her. Just stating that we should all be cautious in interpreting media reports.

Thanks for the information, Blondie93!

Blondie93 has done a superb job of explaining the ramifications of a brain injury.

I do know this: it was a left hemisphere through-and-through shot, reportedly back to front, exiting above the left eye. Rep. Giffords is being kept in a medically induced coma. The neurosurgeon spoke at this morning's press conference and described her injury with enough medical precision that I, as another speech-language pathologist, could follow and I have an idea of the path the bullet took. It was, however, difficult for the media to understand, and he stopped himself from being specific or answering many detailed questions. A section of her left skull has been removed (and will be replaced when the time comes) in an effort to reduce the impact of the swelling. There are other medical procedures that can be implemented to reduce or minimize the impact of the brain swelling which has and will occur as a result of the insult the brain suffered. She is not out of any woods yet; the doctors outlined a very long recovery and rehabilitation period, which also leads me to believe that there was some significant brain injury incurred.

UMC is a Level One Trauma center and I am confident that Rep. Giffords received exceptional medical treatment. It was 38 minutes from the time she was shot until she entered the OR. The EMTs stabilized and transported her without doing any unnecessary procedures that could have negatively impacted the operation she underwent, according to the Trauma Surgeon and Neurosurgeon who spoke. However, those 38 minutes... no way to tell what the long term effects are going to be, just as Blondie93 stated.

Keep all the survivors in prayer; theirs is a long road ahead.

My uncle is a judge for the Arizona Superior Court in Pima County and my aunt is an attorney for the City of Tucson; they were both very close with Judge Roll. My cousin (who goes to school in DC but was home in Tucson for winter break) was an intern for Giffords over the summer. I called them Saturday to check in and they were all sobbing. I'm still rather shaken up after hearing just how close to home this hit for them.

My prayers are with Giffords for a miraculous recovery and with the families and loved ones of all of the victims.

A close family friend had a TBI and the road to recovery was long and slow and he never did fully recover :( He was in a coma for about a month or so, maybe a bit less. He was at Metro, which has an excellent neuro area around here. He never regained full mental capacities, especially in math skills. He never could finish college because of it. He's able to lead an almost completely normal life though.

A well known dressage rider suffered a TBI. She fell off a horse and wasn't wearing a helmet. (Not saying a helmet would have definitively prevented any injury though!) She's on the road to recovery now and though she is starting back with some theraputic riding, it is still too soon to tell how much she will be able to do. It's such a shame. Shameless plug: Please wear a properly fitted helmet! It may not prevent an injury but it's better than nothing!

All my prayers are with the families of the victims.

Of course, blunt and penetrating brain injury are very different creatures. Her main problem, other than the risk of secondary brain injury, is the direct trauma to her speech center. There is a long road ahead for Rep. Giffords recovery, and it will be a long while before we know what permanent neuro deficits she sustained in this assault. For now, she is lucky to be alive with the ability to process simple commands. It will be interesting to see what they report when she is extubated.

Fiance just got an email from his aunt, who is an attorney in Tucson. She is/was close with both Gabby Giffords and Judge Roll, and is extremely distraught over what happened. Turns out she was supposed to be at that event, but decided not to attend that morning. That Safeway is just around the corner from her, and where she shops every week. I think we're both a little shaken, as we had all assumed she was at her home in Mexico at the time.

Weapon in rampage was banned under Clinton-era law

The high-capacity magazine of the semiautomatic pistol used in the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and more than a dozen other people on Saturday would have been illegal to manufacture and difficult to purchase under the Clinton-era assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

According to police and media reports, the alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, legally purchased a semiautomatic Glock 19 with a high-capacity magazine in November at a gun store in Tucson. Under the assault weapons ban, it was illegal to manufacture or sell new high-capacity magazines, defined as those that hold more than 10 rounds. The magazines used by Loughner had 31 rounds each, according to police.

If Loughner had been using a traditional magazine, "it would have drastically reduced the number of shots he got off before he had to pause, unload and reload -- and he could have been stopped," Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, tells Salon.

http://www.salon.com/news/gabrielle_...lt_weapons_ban

Kappamd, the entire city of Tucson is devastated. We cannot get away from this. It is raw and painful beyond imagination.

I have a heightened compassion for the people of NYC, Oklahoma City, and other areas where there have been horrific and violent acts. Tucson has retained much of a "small town" feel (as I wrote earlier) and the legal community is shaken to the core. The medical community is feeling the effects, and law enforcement is stressed to the limit with all the attention and activity since Saturday. The community is pulling together as many resources as possible to support the children in Christina-Taylor Green's school, as well as other children throughout the community.

It could have been any Safeway, on any corner, in Tucson, on any Saturday. Gabby Giffords has been conducting "Congress On Your Corner" since her first term in office. John Roll was headed home from mass, and he stopped in to say hello to Gabby and thank her for supporting him in his efforts to get relief for the overburdened Federal Courts (due to the sheer volume of immigration cases stemming from our proximity to the Mexican border). Other people were there to meet our Representative; she has always been accessible to her constituency. It was just another Saturday morning...and then it wasn't.

It will never been the same here. We are picking up the pieces, we are planning funerals and memorials, we are going about the business of death, and life will go on.

This isn't relevant. It's just not. Stop. Making. This. About. Politics.

Fine...turn to Hoarders!!

What?

Welcome to the 24-hour news cycle.

I'm aware of it. I'm encouraging DS to not lower the intellectual level of THIS conversation. We have frodo and max for that.

Oh yes wasn't saying they were even remotely the same! Just wanted to agree that it's still a long road even though she is able to respond to simple commands. One of the news briefs I heard made it out to be like she would be just because she could raise a finger :( It's good but it's by no means a full recovery. The brain is a very interesting thing though. I always said if I had gone into medicine I would have wanted to do neuro.

1st, I think you mean Oklahoma City, not Kansas City. Thankfully KC hasn't been the site of one of these atrocities.

2nd, I saw a great interview with Bob Woodruff who had a remarkably similar injury and he is for all intents and purposes just fine. I'm sure there's a lot he deals with that he's not talking about, but he's sharp enough to continue to be a TV reporter. They also showed a picture of him with the piece of his skull still missing. GUHROSS. But hey, they eventually put it back and he looks fine.

We can't assume she's going to be perfectly fine, but there is reason for hope. I have so many friends who are politicos. One works for Congressman Cleaver in a similar roll as the staffer guy who died. I don't like the idea of having to worry about these friends doing the work of the people in a swing state where there is abundant negativity.

hey drole...BTW...no, it's not about politics, but what the article was stating is that had certain laws regarding his firearms were still in place, there would have been the possibility that he may not have caused so much damage.

Just a what if...no right vs left wing argument.

Iam sure what we will see as an end result are politicians and gun lobbyists battling for new gun measure laws just like what took place after the V Tech and Columbine shootings.


BUT...this muthafuggah was batshit crazy!!

moving on!

Changing the gun laws over an isolated incident is dumb no matter how you slice it.

Let's say you reduce clip sizes to 15. What does a fella like this do? Carry two guns, problem solved.

Again, I'm no neurosurgeon but after having many family experiences with nearly fatal instances I believe you never fully return to normal. Something about you has changed whether it be personality, physically, mentally, and its because an integral part of your body (be it your brain, heart, lungs) has been altered in one way or another. Heart cells do not regenerate and neuron cells regenerate but very few do. There is hope and its a miracle shes alive.

Have you read the recent studies and findings on neuroplasticity?

Don't let Jim Brady hear you say that.

No, and Im not speaking from what I know, I'm speaking of what Ive been told by family doctors. I'm not claiming to know everything.

James Brady is just a political opportunist in a wheelchair.

Heck.. his own shooting only involved six bullets.

This was an isolated incident. 30 round clips are useful for a number of reasons. Especially at the gun range. If these clips are made illegal, do you think folks will no longer be able to obtain them?

He was assigned the same lawyer who defended the OKC Bomber. I just don't know if I would feel right defending someone who was guilty, and for some reason they got away with it. None the less I dont think my conscience would allow me to feel right defending someone/ something I feel is horribly wrong.

It's not the defense attorney's place to approve of or condemn their client's actions. Only to ensure that they have a fair trial where all available defenses are presented honestly and competently. Without that, the system doesn't work.

That is you and your conscience speaking; thankfully the United States Constitution and the protections it affords is still in effect today. I would not want to live in a country that doesn't provide those protections.

Has civics been dropped from high school curriculums? I know neuroanatomy isn't part of the curriculum but I thought that civics was, as a part of the responsibility to educate people to become citizens of the United States?

The story I read said he was assigned Ted Kaczynski's lawyer (the Una Bomber)

Judy Clark has represented the Unabomber, Tim McVeigh, the Olympic Bomber, and Susan Smith. The government keeps her pretty busy!

I was listening to a great interview with her this morning on NPR. She said that the main function of their role in cases like this--where they were either caught in the act, confesses, or the evidence is clearly indicative of their guilt--is to get life in prison and not the death penalty.

Judy Clarke represented Loughner yesterday at the arraignment in Phoenix. The entire Tucson Federal bench recused itself, as Judge Roll was Chief Judge here in Tucson. The Federal trial will likely be held in Phoenix; and there may also be State charges filed in the death of Christina-Taylor Green, as well as regarding the other victims. A few words about Ms. Clarke:

"Those who know Judy Clarke say she’s never shied away from defending some of the most reviled people in recent history. She represented Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. Her other clients include Atlanta Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph, 9/11 co-conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui and Susan Smith, the South Carolina mother who drowned her two sons in 1994.

“She’s a specialist in representing people charged with some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine and she does it with a great deal of compassion, objectivity and thoroughness.” "

Her website has been changed and reveals the following:

http://www.jcsrlaw.net/

Wow.

Think that depends on the district. I never took a civics class in HS.

Vito, is it called Government or something of the sort? Times have changed (we had typing, not keyboarding :D)

ETA: Ms. Clarke was consulted on the McVeigh case, and there is conflicting information on the web as to whether she actually represented him.

When I was in HS (c/o 2002), we had a government class, but it was an AP elective.

I took it, but I don't think others were required to.

Government/Civics and Phys Ed were the ONLY required courses when I was in high school in 1983. You had to have a certain number of math, english, etc., but those were the only two named as mandatory. It is still required in the state of Michigan.

My Government / History / English were all taught by coaches who particularly didn't give a shit. Theyre required but didn't require much effort.

English and history were taught by coaches? That's unfortunate.

Sophmore english- volleyball coach
Junior english- football coach
Senior english- cheerleading coach.

Hold up bro, I know a lot of good teachers who coach as a collateral duty. Educator first, coach second kid of thing.