Yeah it's pretty much every other thread we have about anything. I tried to learn something though. I guess I did.

I don't think utopia will ever be achieved, but I think we should all want to make our cities as best as they can be. I think people today lake civic identity. Meaning, I don't think people care at all where they live, that places and neighborhoods have become interchangeable.

Do you always lose debates like this?

This is pretty pathetic.

You did...go to college right? You're not some sort of alumni initiate with a University of Phoenix degree or something..right?

But here is the question...how many times can you keep changing between living in the suburbs vs living in the city and at what cost? It's not so cut and dry as it seems. What is it that you are willing to give up and get in return? Convenience, a nice environment, crime free areas, good school systems?

People do care where they live. Think about when you chose to move wherever you are now and where you plan to move in the future. What factors do you take into account? Better yet, if you plan on becoming a homeowner, how long do you plan on staying there? I just had this conversation with someone yesterday about the fact that due to this so call 'gentrification' issue, so many people are losing on both sides. You have owners who cannot afford to sell their property because although their credit is great, the area itself is a depressed area. And then you have people who are renting at the same price they would pay to own. It's a risk and a gamble in this economy and a question that has not been answered. How does gentrification benefit everyone? The answer is, it doesn't.

When areas a reshaped and transformed you have to sacrifice something for the desired effect. And as it's already stated, it's not just "Section 8ers" or the poor.

And as some of us have been around long enough to see some of these effects, the next question is, how long will it stay this way until people start to change their minds and decide to move back out of the cities because they don't want to be confined living up under other people, the cities have been run down, the cost of living in that area is is too high or crime forced them to the suburbs.

RU, cities lost their identities because it's more about dollars now than about 'community togetherness'.

Sidebar: Don't forget desegregation is also what lead to a destruction of 'community identity'. If you wanted tax dollars (as alluded to earlier in this thread) then governments had to bar practices about where people could live. Again another win/lose situation.

Disappearing are your "Chinatowns", (DC's Chinatown is a joke BTW), Little Poland, Little Italy, etc. These were communities that thrived at the early pert of the 20th century creating an identity because naturally the US wasn't as crowded then as it is now. But now with people scrambling to make every bit of space habitable, these communities with identities will lose them because it's all about the color and depth of green.

So, I am willing to bet you, in 10 to 20 years, this trend may reverse again.



The problem now, of course...is urban sprawl so it may not be too much suburbia left to live in within that time.


Something else you may want to look at regarding back and forth living

yah. once i saw Kevin enter the thread i knew someone was gonna get pissed off.

Gentrified neighborhoods aren't necessarily free of crime, either. There's a low level of gang activity here as well as other crime-related activity which seems to be all over Chicago... muggings, beatings, etc. It's just that when it's a violent crime and it happens here (and is reported), it gets a lot more news coverage than if the same thing were to happen in other areas.

What's frustrating to me is that there seem to be cops ALL over this neighborhood, but then they're talking about bringing the national guard into the south side because "crime is out of control there." Well... maybe if you pulled back your forces and drove by my house maybe once every two hours instead of twice an hour you'd be able to have a more robust police force in those areas.

I ask myself the same question about you with some of the erroneous racial garbage I've seen you post.

Prior to the fences, there were lots of burglaries and non-violent crimes. After the fence, those things went way down. It's hard to imagine these things are not related.

But yeah, Section 8ers do tend to commit more crimes, violent and otherwise than your average suburban soccer mom. Seems pretty "cut and dry" to me.

And I don't know if you have been keeping up....it's not just Section 8 people who are a part of the criminal element nowadays.

But then you might want to go back and review this thread (another wrong end for you BTW) to understand when people are backed into a corner, some do not have the means or know how to fight their way out.

You have to take into account the area OUTSIDE of your fence. Your fence still only counts as a temporary solution to a problem that is being ignored. What do you do about what goes on inside of your fence (and BTW I actually SERVE ON my HOA board ...a bit more different that actually just going to quarterly meetings) with people who cannot keep up with assessments, security (you guys got a fence, good for you...fences can be hopped over), fielding questions about refinancing, landscaping, architectural requests, homeowners who for many many reasons decided to rent their homes out or worse yet, just simply move while the house just sits there (still being paid for yes). I'm sure that not everyone that lives inside of this magical fence is as well off as you and if this is the case, you probably couldn't tell; it's that "Keeping up with appearances" thing.

You probably have not experienced that yet but then also remember you have to eventually come outside of your fence and as I have said repeatedly, your city may have the resources to deal with the sort of change that you describe but not every area has that ability to do so whether you want to blame it on the people or the money that is being utilized.
Eventually, enough people will not want (or be able) to continually to pay for resources that kept these elements out and choose to move elsewhere and guess what, you are right back at square one.

You just can't throw money at the gentrification problem and expect for it to be permanently solved especially since most who are throwing the money aren't the ones really digging into the layers to truly examine the overall effects of trying to fix urbanization through gentrification.

The only thing you are right about is that it's a gamble but the one thing you have truly failed to answer and grasp is how this is not a win/win situation

You may want to also see this article... your city isn't mentioned by the way.

We were in this article though...

http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/0...red-recession/

And no one's hopping that fence. I believe it's 12 feet high.

Our assessments are no big deal and they're optional, so that's not really an issue. The majority of our budget comes from grants from the city. And as far as my neighbors being as well off as me, I don't really know. So long as they keep their yards up, I don't really care either.

As far as gentrification goes, even in the circumstances where it is not win/win, being poor sucks and it should suck. That you've let your neighborhood slide to a point where external forces are needed to essentially wipe the place out and start over means that you have failed. If that happens in my neighborhood someday, then I failed at being a good steward for my neighborhood and doing what I could to protect my property value.

The problem will never be solved because the problem of blight, left unchecked tends to spread. Best to nip it in the bud if possible and salvage a bad situation, or if not possible, to at least contain all the blight in one area -- in OKC, there are certain neighborhoods you just don't go to at night... or if you do go, you go armed (conceal and carry is permissible here and open carry is about to be).

The fix is cultural. I agree you can't throw money at the problem. If the police won't clean up your neighborhood, you have to take it upon yourself to do something. There may be consequences for that, it's all a cost-benefit analysis, and it may be the case that eventually you're resigned to the fact that the neighborhood will slip into blight.

UGGGGG this is the same old school choice "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" crap. If people are paying taxes, why in the fuck should they lay down and put up with not receiving services (be it police presence, updated schools etc). The "walk away if you can and just leave it for the poor slobs who can't afford to do so" is a really good way to teach your children to be irresponsible brats who care about very little but themselves and their own pleasure.

Wow...some of what you just said are the first smart things that you said all thread. Kudos.

Now...point one.

Not all areas can get grants from cities to keep their areas up. And I am willing to bet that in order to do so, you probably still have to put something towards it to continue to get grants. You are so lucky to do so.

Point number 2.

You are just one person. The people that live in your area are just one group. Times change and people change but of course debating this point we are going into a circle.

Point number 3.

You admitted that gentrification and blight is not fixable. Good to see that you are finally realizing this. Now you stated that to nip it in the bud you have to contain it. The next problem that your city has to solve is making it livable so that way YOU CAN walk the streets at night. Containment, like fencing off your homes, is a temporary solution at best.

Point number 4.

You are still missing the point on this however. As stated repeatedly, what is doable in your area is not something easily doable in many areas and it goes along socio-economic lines, which was pointed out, as to why this isn't always a clear cut 'simple' solution.

You also need to figure into the fact that many businesses who want to gentrify an area actually COUNT on high crime stats so that way it's easier to acquire property they are looking to change.

As far as 'hopping' the fence I was figuratively speaking...not literally.

@33girl, yeah you just reminded me about a law Virgina recently passed where certain areas can deny public services if they suspect that residents are illegals.

People in blighted communities, on the whole don't really pay taxes. They get more than they pay in. And since there's generally no retail, mostly due to inventory shrinkage and safety issues in blighted communities, unless the city has a big footprint (which is not typical of older cities), then residents generally have to go out to the suburbs to go to Sam's, Wal-Mart or what have you.

Further, property taxes aren't going to be remotely comparable to the suburbs either due to depressed property values.

Expecting the same level of services in high crime, blighted communities is just absurd. And even in the suburbs, cooperation and interaction between public safety officials and the community is both common and expected. At least it is here.

Nice finish!
There ya go!! Speak from what you know!

I wasn't talking about blighted communities, nor were you. There's a hell of a big difference between "blight" and as someone said, a community w/ a demographic that isn't as desirable to retailers. Those are the communities that the cops and the city services in general tend to blow off...allowing them to slip into full ass blight...and that's reprehensible.

[[ [ Blighted communities ] Communities undesirable to retailers ]]

I don't understand those funny doodads. What are you trying to say?

It's an attempt at a Venn diagram.

Don't invoke my dead Logics teacher in this thread. LOL LOL LOL

and that train is pulling in.....soon.

Care to enumerate? I don't quite remember anything that has been specifically racial?

Maybe you were drunk, but you said African Americans scare white people away at parties, or something like that. Then, you don't really have an understanding of why the Rebel Flag that you like is offensive to some Americans. Comparing one inhumane act with another, while saying one is not as bad as the other. etc etc. Inhumane is inhumane, one isn't any worse than the other. An educated person would know that, which is why I couldn't figure out why you would make a comment to Daemon about his education level. I don't agree with everything he says, either, but you don't have to make an attempt to belittle his intelligence level. He seems to be pretty intelligent, to me.

head start with this one

This was still a warm up

This one is a gem but not quite


Farr-reners?? Really? This may be a stretch but this as a response can be well....hmmm


Aryan Blood? heh that one was worth a chuckle


One of the few times you talked with sense


Post #100 was a winner....and CG you can do the rest
:D

lol
You win! :p

Perhaps I misclicked, but these first three have nothing to do with race?

Foreigners does not equal race.

and clearly a joke, besides.

Of course it was worth a chuckle, because it was obviously a joke.


True enough.

But I'm not sure any of those posts were specifically dumb or had illogical arguments.

You are sure full of jokes...for starters.

I don't know if you were joking or not, only you know that. It just kinda seems like you're trying to cover it up by saying you were joking, because for some reason I've always connected your username to racial slurs on here. Some of your comments remind me of max based on some of the threads you're quick to respond to. If you don't like people based on their race and not based on the individual person, then, that's fine. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Everyone is biased about something/someone to some degree. I'm just saying that there's always a better way to debate and/or disagree with someone without name calling, making attacks on someone's education level, etc.

Not if people only come to GC to amuse themselves by any means necessary. On some days, calm discourse is entertaining and on other days smartassy back-and-forths are entertaining. Yay.

I don't follow posters around GC and don't remember most people's previous posts, even if I exchanged words with them. So, the only thing that has ever grabbed my attention about EW is his username.LOL. Random: I cyberwonder how PhiGam and TexasWSP(sp) are doing. They were cool and entertaining.

lol
omg, are kidding me? You told me that I have a "history" of condescending comments once. Sounds like you have great memory, to me.:)

Did "most people's" go over your head? Good job at trying to call me out, idiot.

I wasn't trying to "call you out". Have a cow, already!

Whoops, how could I have missed that sarcasm from she who is rarely amusing and rarely grasps the sarcasm of others. LOL.

--whatever.

*cackle*

"Happen to live" there? Nobody happens to live anywhere unless they inherit a house. They make choices that carry trade-offs. If public transportation is important enough to you, you choose housing close to it. It's not bad luck that you don't have a bus line close by. It's your choice.
________
Vapir reviews

Where are you quoting that from? I don't remember seeing that.

And if you purchase a house near the bus line and they stop that bus line?

Massive budget cuts in public transportation (coupled with breakdowns in negotiations between executives and unions of drivers) make this more and more common.

This is what a lot of people are dealing with now. I live close to a subway stop that takes me to my office in about 30 minutes, so I'm not too dependent on the bus, but a lot of people in my neighborhood are.

I agree. And, it's not just that point specifically. When you choose where you want to live, you base it on a lot of things: school systems (if you have kids), convenience, level of urban/suburban/rural, etc., safety of the neighborhood, all kinds of things! The problem is, a lot of things change and sometimes your dream home/neighborhood became something totally different but you're stuck there.

The CTA cut a handful of bus routes a few months ago, and are putting fewer trains on the tracks (causing crowded buses and trains that remind me of that video from Japan and some pretty significant delays, depending on the time of day). I think a lot of the bus routes were express buses, but some were not. Kindof a bummer, really.