I will start a thread to move this facebook commentary elsewhere.

This has its roots in sororities making their pledges ONLY participate in Derby Days, Watermelon Bust, what have you. It IS hazing and has been looked on as such for a long time. (And I'm not someone who cries hazing at the drop of a hat.) These events are for the whole Greek community to help with philanthropy, not for putting pledges on display. Not to mention sending only the pledges to mixers - probably worse since alcohol is involved. So pledges AND initiated members play on the basketball teams. So what??? That's how it should be.

"Calling a spade a spade" is fine amongst your brothers or behind closed doors, but to do as he did in a public manner is not mature or professional. It makes him look like he has a big chip on his shoulder against Sigma Chi, and/or makes it look like sour grapes because the chapter he advises is losing rushees to them. I've never been to Miami, have no clue of the fraternity reputations there, and that's exactly how it comes across to me.

As you're a dude who can pee anywhere, I think you're completely misinterpreting this statement. I've had times where I had to pee so bad I didn't care if a stall was out of order, either. It had nothing to do with the person who was informing me of the state of the stall.

Here's my question: if Pi Phi is such a raging bunch of alcholic brats who drag the whole Greek community down, why have they continued to exist? Why do they keep getting good sized pledge classes? Why do fraternities continue to mix with them? Obviously the only time that anyone truly gives a shit about what they do is when they get caught and it gets Miami's name dragged through the mud.

All of this! I'm so tired of people b*tching that they can't make their pledges do this or that anymore. What is wrong with a whole chapter participating in an event with their new members? Secondly, whatever anyone else says, coming onto a message board and trashing a chapter is not okay. It really wreaks of jealousy. It sounds like a bunch of people think it's time to pile on and tear down the competition while they're on their knees. Newsflash...they don't need your help.

'

Just a guess, but:

Because fraternities think they're a good time, and a subset of freshman girls want to be seen as a good time?
________
VAPORIZER VIDEO REVIEW

The center definitely does appear to be a place with gorgeous views as I saw for the first time on the news the other night. I would actually be inclined to go visit were it not for the lack of professionalism shown by their staff in addressing this matter (their spokesman going on the radio to trash the sorority, etc.).

Saying that "everything there turns into a black or white thing" is beyond hilarious- I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. We're glad you went elsewhere.

If there's one thing I will agree with you on, it's that the punishments should have been (at least) equalized. Like I said before, I'm not arguing that Fuzzie should have gotten off scot-free. But their sentencing came after Pi Phi's, and to give them twice as much of a punishment in light of the details is reproachable.

Get the chip off your shoulder, in no way did I nor do I intend to suggest that it being a black history museum makes it less important than any other museum. You'll note that I said that the actions of the only student who approached a monument in any way were completely unacceptable.

However, I think if you (and anyone else) takes an honest look at this situation, if we exclude the incident mentioned above, this all would be boiling down to the Freedom Center biting off more than they could chew and now having buyer's remorse. The DJ told the Freedom Center staff prior to the event that the sorority had been banned from BB Riverboats, where they'd previously held an event, for being too out of hand. This almost undoubtedly changed expectations and how they approached the night, and they included this in their letter to Miami. Of course, BB Riverboats has now come out and said that was entirely untrue. If you haven't already read the actual letter from the Freedom Center, I suggest you do so. I have a feeling some of the outrage stems from the fact that people are considering these two incidents one in the same rather than separately looking at them objectively and tearing them apart piece by piece.

So lets do just that. The Freedom Centers' complaints were as follows:

1) The students brought their own alcohol into the center.

Well, by their spokesman's own admission, they were providing alcohol for the attendees, so basically doesn't this just boil down to them wanting to get paid while the attendees get drunk? Much the same as how baseball stadiums won't allow you to bring in anything more than peanuts and water but of course, if you want a slice of pizza or a hot pretzel they'll be more than happy to allow you to consume one in the stadium as long as you pay their price.

So with that, not a big deal at all, but something worth a little bit of punishment.

2) Girl is too inebriated upon arrival and her date curses sorority members and staff.

Standard procedure for these sorority events is that if you're too out of control, you are sent home in a taxi on your own dime rather than allowed in. They did the correct thing in arranging for a taxi and they even tried to get her date in line. The girls did everything right here. In this case, there is likely no problem identifying the individual in question, so he should be penalized individually under the code of conduct.

3) Couples (presumably) having sex in the family restroom

Not classy, but guess what? You have 'family' restrooms and they are doing their business outside of public view. Again, not classy but not illegal, nor is it anything that I would think could be sanctioned under the code of conduct.

4) Bathrooms trashed/girls vomiting

Not good, but some of this has to be expected with a formal. Girls vomiting doesn't surprise me at all, the bathrooms being in somewhat poor shape is unsurprising. I agree that there should be some punishment for this, but this isn't on the same level as people purposely pooping because they think it's funny like at the Pi Phi formal.

5) Guy tries to pee on exhibit and then service elevator

Again, something that was in no way condoned by the sorority, and I assure you they will (if they haven't already) give up his name in a heartbeat. So punish him for his pathetic behavior under the code of conduct. This isn't like the Pi Phi situation--the Fuzzie girls weren't sitting there laughing/cheering on this kid as he acted like a clown. The fuzzie I spoke at length with about this situation was livid about what he did. By no means was this encouraged by the group.

6) Drinks spilled on dance floor

Not surprising at all, although some punishment is warranted if it was done as nonchalantly as the letter suggests, rather than being the result of people bumping into each other as ~250-300 people try to dance. I've been to numerous formals/on numerous dance floors (including with some of the girls that attended this), and I've not seen someone just blatantly throw down their drink--the people nearby would kick their rear end for getting it on them.

I suspect, both from the tone of the letter and what I know, that this was largely a case of the Freedom Center staff being told what they were by the DJ and then seeing things the way they wanted to see them. Perhaps they have the same attitude as the poster I'm responding to, and saw a bunch of white girls come into their center and decided to make it a black/white thing. No doubt something should be done, but this incident didn't even come close to being on par with the Pi Phi situation. Yes, it should be punished more harshly considering the venue, but even then 2 years is overboard. Realistically, Fuzzie should have gotten social probation if it was just at a random place. Given it was at the freedom center, I would agree a semester (or maybe even year) long suspension is in order. However, if that is going to be the case, Pi Phi's suspension should be no less than 2 years. Having the punishments the way they are (reversed) is a complete misappropriation of justice.

We have an entire fraternity intramural league for that. The event I mentioned was an opportunity, early in their pledging, for the pledge class to bond on its own. There are a multitude of opportunities for them to do stuff with brothers, this was an opportunity for them to do something as a pledge class, and now that is gone. As to the other poster who said 'why can't the chapter just do something together with the pledges', trust me, we do. Probably 80% of the active brothers are there cheering on their pledges, as they are at the other events like this. It was a really neat event, I'm sure the pledges enjoyed getting cheered on by ~75 people. Many of them cited that tournament as one of the better moments of their pledging, as they realized that we really wanted the best for them and they had a whole chapter behind them for the first time. Now that's gone.

As far as losing rushees to Sigma Chi: Jerry couldn't care less where teenage kids rush, just that they do and that they end up being better men for having been in a fraternity. Like I said, he's helped many fraternities, including mine, who competes more directly with the one he advises than Sigma Chi does. If he was only motivated by helping his own chapter, he wouldn't be assisting mine, who has gotten kids that his chapter wanted badly. But you know what? Even after that, as his chapter goes downhill (through no fault of his own), he continues to help those who seek his help. If you had been to Miami, you would know the chapters involved and would know that his chapter does not recruit the same types of guys at all so his chapter isn't losing anyone to Sigma Chi. He talks in the article about how Sigma Chi used to be an exemplary chapter, as any alpha should be. This is not a petty man dealing with petty matters. He is retiring in a semester and is airing the greek system's dirty laundry in hopes we might rectify it. Hell, he's given us the tools to do so, it's high time it's done. This man has done everything in his power to help the greek system, not tear it down. Please quit making assumptions without knowing the campus landscape at all, as they have been completely inaccurate.

See the response above mine. Not many fraternities do mix with them--they hang out almost entirely with one fraternity in particular. Which is fine, but to suggest that a sorority filled with drunken brats will not recruit well is to overestimate freshman rushees who mostly just want to get into the 'top tier' (read: best looking) sorority.

And what about the fraternity whose pledges are not athletic and could care less, who feel compelled to participate? Do you really think they enjoy it? There are tons and tons and TONS of ways for pledge classes to bond with each other without the whole Greek community watching them and judging them.

My point exactly. This article will be widely distributed in the wake of all that's happened, and 99% of the people who read it won't know jack about Miami. If he's writing things that people outside the Miami community will read, he needs to think about how those people will interpret them. And I'm betting a lot of people will interpret them just as I did - see some of the previous posts on this thread.

According to a friend who is an alum, there are very, very few unattractive girls at Miami. To state that best looking = top tier seems somewhat simplistic. All that aside, there is still some amount of self-policing that can be done when a group's actions are found inappropriate by the Greek community. That apparently hasn't happened.

:rolleyes: I'll bet you're one of those people who think we shouldn't keep score in youth sports too? Everyone's a winner!


Or maybe he made a conscious decision that the call to arms to improve was more important what some uninformed, judgmental outsiders will think?


Well, that's just not true. I go there now--maybe your friend has extremely low standards, but even within the sorority system (self-selected), we all know which sororities are largely attractive and unattractive. I'm not going to name names because that's not the kinda guy I am, but rest assured there are those on both ends of the spectrum.

With all that being said, my primary reason for posting here in the first place was to defend one of Miami's greek community's greatest assets from attacks by people who knew not about what they spoke. I have no desire to spend the rest of my day going back and forth with someone who clearly doesn't know what they are talking about, so I'm going to go sit by the pool and indulge in a summer beverage instead. Cheers.

I didn't realize that guys could flounce.

We've had a plethora lately.

There are many other reasons why a venue may restrict what is brought onto the premesis. Not the least would be that if they provide all the alcohol, they can also cut off the alcohol when things are getting out of hand.

I'm sure that restricting sources of alcohol has much more to do with risk management rather than getting rich. Besides, most venues have similar policies because it's either required by law or required by their insurance carrier. If a person drinks themselves to oblivion then dies, injures self or others, etc., the venue would still be held partially responsible even if that person didn't drink the alcohol that they provided.

They're a very popular chapter within a specific subset of the Greek community -- some fraternities think they're fun to mix with and the type of girls who want to hang out with those fraternities are the type of girls who pledge them.

I very much enjoyed my time as a part of the greek community at Miami. I do think I've noticed that in the four years since I graduated, behavior has changed for the worse. Maybe I'm just old now. I hope Pi Phi and Fuzzie's suspensions help everyone realize what could happen to their own chapters.

Can someone explain something that I should probably already know?
Pi Phi and Alpha Xi (I cannot force myself to call them Fuzzies. It makes me think of those people who get their kick dressing up in animal costumes and, you know...) are suspended. What is that entailing exactly? No socials, specific events or activities that they have to put on to appease the admin, etc?
Are they going to be allowed to take pledge classes next year? I did not think NPC allowed no pledge classes as a punishment.

The NPC doesn't allow Campus panhellenic councils to put this as a sanction. However, NPC can do nothing to stop a university from suspending a chapter and taking away their ability to participate in recruitment. MysticCat found the specifics of suspension yesterday which included no participation in campus activities as a group, no recruitment and no use of the chapter suite.

An official statement is on Alpha Xi Delta HQ's site:

http://www.alphaxidelta.org/index.ph...02010&refno=77

Excerpt:

. . . We extend our apologies to the Freedom Center for this incident.

Alpha Xi Delta does not condone this behavior and, as a result, conducted an immediate investigation, and placed the chapter on probation on April 9. Terms of probation include social suspension, alcohol education, and the development of a social event checklist to ensure all appropriate measures are taken. The terms also require the chapter to hold members accountable, with appropriate membership probation or suspensions to follow. . . .

Hah, that would be furry. And they are one... special... group of people

Sorry everyone. I went to two universities and at both places AXiD was known as Fuzzie; some habits are hard to break.

I get what ADqtPiMel is saying about a small group within a chapter with a sense of entitlement. It only takes a bad few it give a huge bad name to the rest of the organization. Chapters at MU are not alone as this happens at other universities too.

1. No, definitely not, I just think there are far better ways for pledges (male and female) to bond than taking part in a campus competition.

2. "Improvement" is not an excuse to act like a dick and call people out, especially if you're old enough to know better.

3. Apparently the apple isn't falling far from the tree.

4. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...es/flounce.jpg

We call them Alpha Xi's at Ohio Northern. looks like they're different all over ohio!

(and that flouncey cat is cute! my pre-school aged daughter has recently perfected the flounce... it's hilarious, and hard to stay mad at her when she does it.)

One of my friends is a Theta from your chapter! She transferred to Ohio State and when I told her I was a member of a sorority she said, "I was a Theta." I said, "No, you still are a Theta." Apparently, she left on good terms but, never knew she could associate with the Theta chapter at Ohio State. I keep telling her she should get involved with an Alumnae Chapter.

Looks like it's happened again in SW Ohio, this time at University of Dayton.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...ty-705529.html

This one has yet to make huge media waves, and it appears the college will be holding individuals more responsible, even though Alpha Phi will be undergoing a disciplinary hearing soon. Some girls were gracious enough to go back to the venue and apologize face to face as well.

You know... I don't know what it is about SW Ohio recently... but it's making me wonder. Is this behavior nothing new, and it's just making public news now? Has it gotten this out of hand because GLOs havent been punished enough in the past for similar things? Is it a geographical thing? I've noticed high school parties around here make high school parties in columbus and northern ohio look like friday night bingo at the church hall. Or is it a new trend? Or is it the dates that are taking advantage of the situation (it's not THEIR organization, afterall)? Or is it just a lack of alcohol education and lessons in responsibility? Is it like this everywhere else in the US?

Probation and suspension were nothing I ever experienced in college. None of the 4 sororities at my small school would dare test the limits like this. Even the fraternities were never that bad...Sig Pi's were put on social probation for one year for having a party with kegs that didnt get registered with campus security, but that's all I can remember. I'm not saying we were goodies who never had parties... I just never saw anyone get to the point where school or National GLO discipline was needed.

These pieces from the article point to some of the issues. Not just for southwest Ohio, but nationwide.

And this.

Oh, it's nothing new, at least over the better part of the last decade. Similar kinds of behavior at formals and other events seem to crop up
every year / semester. Some of them get lots of publicity and media attention, some don't. Some get mentioned on GC, some we GCers don't catch. But the pre-gaming, vomiting, public urination, trashing the premises, altercations with venue staff, hospitalizations . . . not surprising to hear or read about all that any more.

I'm NOT saying it's the norm. I'm NOT saying it's everywhere. I'm NOT saying I approve.

1. Formal dresses are less formal than they used to be and people don't care if they get alcohol on them.

2. At our formals, we did some of the drinking at the actual dinner/dance event, but anyone who drank hardcore did it in their hotel room. If buses are taking them to and fro they don't have the chance to do that.

3. People are so paranoid of letting loose on campus they think they can "get away" with it at an off campus venue. This is almost as stupid as thinking you can get with someone's boyfriend during spring break when you're all on the same trip that was scheduled through your student activities office.

4. Pregaming isn't new. The amount of it is. Our pregaming was (at the hardest) a couple shots of peach Schnapps or a few beers...not a whole bottle of SoCo.

5. Chicks are anorexic and don't eat and can't hold their liquor.

I think all of these are valid, but just wanted to co-sign that it is the amount that is now consumed during pregaming that seems to have changed.

We couldn't purchase alcohol until we were 21, but we were able (legally) to drink it in the house and in the dorms before our 21st birthday. As such, the whole *mystique* of drinking just did not exist. So most of us were able to learn just how much we could drink and perhaps more important, *what* we could drink without getting sick or too drunk. So by the time formals came around (end of the semester), we were not likely to get out-of-control drunk. We had learned how to drink for the "long haul" as it were. ;)

I just saw this about Alpha Phi in the Dayton newspaper a little while ago, and was wondering the same thing... WTH with greeks in SW Ohio?? I have lived in the region for over 30 years and have never heard of this number or type of incident before.

I understand stupid 19 and 20 year olds drinking too much. (I am a parent and former sorority advsor) That is nothing new. What seems to be new is the absolute lack of modesty and the over the top destruction. These incidents involve public urination and defecation, over the top trashing of public space for the "fun" of trashing it, and in your face public sex, with the accompanying breakage of bathroom hardware and run ins with venue staff. These incidents cross the line from partying to Neronian debauchery, and that is what seems new.

It may be caused by the entitlement mentality that parents have fostered. It may be that having sex since you were 15 and going on fabulous world class vacations every year leaves nothing left to try or experience except total debauchery and abasement. I don't know what it is, but I suspect that campus administrations are not going to put up with all this negative publicity for long without taking some long term actions.

I was surprised to see this in the Boston paper today.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...wild_partying/

Cosign 4 and 5 especially. I'm in the minority of people I know on campus, Greek or not, that has no problem going to a party sober. SO MANY people I know are like, "there's no way I'm going to go if I'm not drunk it won't be fun otherwise".

I'm not sure when the whole "you have to be drunk to have fun" mentality got to the point it is at now, but in Lexington at least, pregaming is a a bigger deal than the actual event!

Also, yeah, you have to EAT SOMETHING and know your limits, too.

Kids these days... :p

I preface this by saying that the sorority members and their dates should take responsibility for their actions and should be punished by both the school and their national organizations.

However, it seems like its like the administration knew for a few years that these formals were getting out of hand and chose to do nothing about it/turn the other cheek. Only when they are faced with a media crisis, do they choose to dole out punishments. I think the administration should take some responsibility in this too.

I also think the "dates" need to be held accountable. Even a sober sorority can't control her drunnk date in relieving himself in an inappropriate place. The "dates" need to be held accountable by the school, or even their organization.

Bravo
Unfortunately, the dates get to hide behind the anonymous wall of random date status. The girls would be unlikely to rat them out either.

From what I understand from a friend at UD, the college is going to hold the individuals responsible as well as the sorority (regarding the Alpha Phi incident). The college paid the venue for the damages, and the college is making the students involved pay them back.

If it's the girls who are 'hiding' them, well then they get to take all of the responsibility anyway. They don't have anyone to blame but themselves for that.

I agree, college age girls aren't always the smartest.

Hence the very existence of this thread!

:D

Alpha Xi Delta has dropped its appeal of its two-year suspension, according to an Associated Press report:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...lsZMwD9FPCKL80

Excerpt:
(AP) – 3 hours ago

OXFORD, Ohio — Miami University says a sorority chapter has dropped its appeal of a two-year suspension for bad behavior at a formal held at the Underground Railroad museum in Cincinnati.

The school said Tuesday that Alpha Xi (zy) Delta is suspended until Aug. 20, 2012. Membership will be subject to review before it can be recognized again as a student organization. . . .

Statement from Zeta Nu Chapter of Alpha Xi Delta at Miami University of Ohio

After careful thought and in consultation with our Fraternity
Headquarters, the Zeta Nu Chapter of Alpha Xi Delta has decided to
withdraw its appeal of Miami University’s decision to suspend the
chapter for two years. As proud Miami University students and Alpha Xi
Deltas, we do not want to prolong the negative attention surrounding
our event, which has tarnished the good reputation of our campus and
sorority.

The Zeta Nu Chapter acknowledges and regrets the bad behavior and poor
judgment displayed by some individuals at our formal event at the
National Underground Railroad Freedom Center in March. As our National
Fraternity has noted, the shameful conduct of some attendees displayed
a lack of respect for the significance of the facility and for
themselves.

During Zeta Nu’s 30 years on the Miami campus, we have never been the
subject of University discipline or sanctions due to behavior. We
deeply regret the damage and disrespect that took place and
immediately apologized to the Freedom Center. The chapter made
compensation for the extra clean up required and volunteered our
membership for community service. The center graciously invited the
chapter for a guided tour of the facility, a tour our members look
forward to taking.

Our chapter will work with Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity to
ensure that the suspension is a learning opportunity for all our
Sisters. Our hope and plan is that when the Zeta Nu Chapter returns in
2012, it will be with a Sisterhood dedicated to the principles held
by Alpha Xi Delta and Miami University, once again making it the
positive force Alpha Xi Delta has been for 30 years at Miami
University.

What happens when a chapter comes back after something like that? Does everyone in the Greek community accept them back with open arms or is there more tension?

I think it depends on how they were thought of before, and whether the Greek community in general thinks that the suspension was warranted.