THIS would be my mom. She doesn't play those games.

I was lucky I guess. One girl tried to bully me in third grade and wouldn't let me join her clique but she'd been held back from the fourth grade, and I didn't want to be friends with a dumb girl! After that, I was significantly taller than everyone else and people were always afraid of me, though I would never have been mean to someone purposely. It worked out well. :p

Oh, I think I can one-up you. LOL in elementary, once a week we would have one of the students from the disabled class sit in on our class. We had the same student every week and he'd been coming for almost the entire school year. One day, one of the boys in our class decided to make fun of him (we all made fun of each other, but kept the disabled boy out of it. We really liked him and he was nice), he couldn't speak and he could hardly walk...he used crutches. I guess the taunting from the boy got on his nerves because his face got completely red, he threw his crutches to the ground and walked up in the boys face. We just stood around with our mouths open, the teacher had to come pull him away. When the disabled boy left the class, we laughed SO hard. The boy who was teasing him was going to be beat up by a disabled kid.

OH for God's sake. Who gives a rat's patootie about "mainstream society" caring when it's happening in your own home to your own kid (or to you).

It may be okay with you for kids to be taking matters into their own hands, ala Bruce Lee, and that sending them to Kung Fu classes is somehow adequately preparing them to cope with bullies, but that's not reality in most situations!

AND, in the case of a kid who cannot possibly Kung Fu his way out of a bullying situation, are they supposed to go Columbine and teach those bullies a lesson by bringing weapons and shooting?

And, I don't have any idea what "show out" means, but I'm betting it's not something my mom would have done.

I do, just like you give a rat's patootie about the little boy with the torn anus. We're talking about SOLUTIONS and clearly you think that what's happening to your own kid should matter to OTHERS.

As for your response to my Bruce Lee post, you clearly didn't grasp it. Run along now.

It doesn't, but it doesn't mean you can do shit about it either. It's ridiculous to expect one kid to fight a group especially if he is smaller than they, and the "hit them back" attitude backfires just about every single time.

Having been the little person (and no I wasn't tiny, but small enough to know I couldn't take them all on in a million years) surrounded by much larger girls, I know exactly how it feels when you realize there is literally nothing you can do to protect yourself at that moment. Knowing you can run to a teacher or parent afterword isn't reassuring at the moment they're closing in.

No, she can't. Because whether the computer is on or not, people are talking about her all over the internet, and she knows it's in reading for the entire world to see.

I don't believe in treating children like they're made of glass, but this sort of attitude is exactly why the situation ended like it did.


Not to mention, what if she had depression (clinical) on top of this bullying? People never take that into account and it's absolutely a real disease.

Sometimes there is no "manning up" I've seen what happens when a kid is mercilessly tormented. At least before Facebook kids could, for the most part, escape it for a few hours once they left school. Think about how it feels to not only be mercilessly tormented at school, but to be tormented with no break. Ever. Knowing that the entire world can read what bullies wrote and it'll follow her forever. In the mind of a teenager who is already struggling, that's massive.

First off, I think your confusing general discussions/opinions of how teenagers are (compared to previous years) with the specifics of the South Hadley case. Personally, from what I've read/heard Phoebe did do what she could with respect to reporting or getting the bullying reported. That being said, I feel like as a society, we pick and choose situations (often arbitrarily) that we desire kids/teens to be responsible. We let them drive, but then we let them off the hook with responsibilities in situations like this (FYI I've been reading comments from people that the perps in the S. Hadley case are just children and should be "shown the right way" instead of prosecuted). Fitting example.

In the case of the kid from Texas, I don't recall seeing that the school had a zero tolerance policy but that the followed their established policy, which is most likely insufficient. And even with "zero tolerance" policies, unless they are strictly, and consistently enforced, then they mean nothing more than any other "policy". Does speaking up ALWAYS mean that the solution you'd like to see, or any other solution for that matter, is going to come down...NO and this is part of what Dr. Phil is talking about with respect to the "rose colored" glasses.

A single or a couple of reports at the school/local level are sometimes not enough. And no I don't think the parents in the S. Hadley case did all that they could do, but I also recognize that there were most likely obstacles that prevented them from doing so. And I also recognize that we are now looking at this situation after the fact and hindsight is 20/20.

Manning up, or at the very least, being an active agent in your situation is far from ridiculous. I don't condone physically fighting back as I recognize how a situation can easily get out of hand and a cycle can be perpetuated. But if a child (general kid, not nec the cases presented in this thread) is suffering in silence, particularly someone over the age of 13, then no I don't think they are being active in escaping/resolving the situation.

srmom, pretty much the same thing happened to me, at around the same age. The difference is that based on the experiences I had to deal with in life up to that point, as well as my parents also setting a tone of personal responsibility for me, my reactions/actions in the situation were different. And again, I think this is where Dr. Phil is talking about establishing "coping mechanisms" A good example from personal experience that I have is in high school when I was marked wrong on a particular question on an exam, as it was written I answered the question correctly, but when I brought this up to the teacher was told that is not what she meant. Well it's not my responsibility to guess what she means vs. what she wrote on a test. When she proved to be combative and rude with respect to giving me my proper grade, I went above her head. Ultimately, my grade was changed. And guess what, my parents never knew about the situation. I didn't need to go to them and complain, hope that they seek action, etc. because my parents not only taught me right from wrong, but they also taught me how to address conflict/issues/the world. Now do I think this is similar to the cases being discussed, but that is what is what I mean by manning up/being an active agent/etc.

Just because you don't classify it as insenstive doesn't mean it isn't.

Hey, you're the one who said a "We need more kids to just 'man up.'" Last time I checked, "kids," unless one is speaking of goats, is slang for those not yet adults, while "man," unless one is speaking of mankind, means those males who are adults.

However treating mental illnesses like they're a silly catch all for emotional problems is just plain wrong.

They should absolutely be sent to a doctor if they show signs of a mental disease. Some doctors do throw out medication like candy, but researching referrals to find one that will take the time to decide if medication is correct or not isn't all that hard.

I'd say, not only were you lucky, but somewhere you were given (by parents or maybe by "nature") a coping mechanism. You were self aware enough to make a judgement about what you did/didn't want to do, and with that you didn't let this chick get in your head.

I don't think saying to kids, and in particular teenagers, that "in X amount of years you will look back on this and see how insignificant it is" is a solution especially because they only think in the moment. However, at the same time, we need to do better about preparing our kids for the future, showing them what's really important, etc.

So, you agree with me.

No need to be insulting and rude. My "rat's patootie" comment was because you diverted the discussion from bullying to mainstream attention to the problem because of race!

I see that you edited your post, and I do agree with this:

The right solutions supposedly, or what parents are told to do, are for the student or parents to go to the school's administrators/teachers and let them know bullying is going on, but if schools do not respond to parent's and student's complaints, despite zero tolerance policies, then what is the solution?

Giving someone classes to bolster self esteem isn't going to help when they are the object of bullying, the bullying is counteracting any of the positive effects of martial arts classes, or modeling classes, or tutoring or whatever the parents have signed their kids up for to try to bolster their self esteem. And if it is physical bullying, a junior high age kid being outweighed by a brute or outnumbered is going to get beaten up regardless of his Kung Fu skills.

Did I say I didn't? :rolleyes:

To the bold, apparently you have not been reading my posts...or the one you responded to for that matter. I said she'd have peace at home and I never said to treat her like she was glass and that it shouldn't have been dealth with. When responding to me, read the entire post. Please and thankies.

Your comment was an attempt at snark and borderline rudeness just like your post about talking to your parents. You picked the wrong one if you thought you'd type like that to me but get nothing in return. ;) Lesson learned on your part.

I care about mainstream attention because it matters for the general topic. You don't have to agree but I neither directed that post to you nor solicited your opinion.


I edited that before you read it and responded to it. You simply missed it. Your apology is accepted.

So you really believe that the only thing to do would be to report it directly to the school, and if nothing else is done, nothing can ever be done?

If so, then I definitely agree with Dr. Phil in her statements that parents aren't doing enough to help their kids develop "coping methods". I personally can think of at least 2 other measures to address this problem as a parent, and I'm not even stretching my brain to do so.

Is self-esteem building going to fix everything, probably not, but I think you completely missed the points here. And effective discipline programs, like martial arts (it's not only about the ability to physically fight back)does in fact make significant affect on a kids perception of both the world and themselves.

"However" usually means you think you're about to say something however-worthy. Your wording was in line with what I already said although I believe you meant something different.

Ch2tf, while I agree that parents perparing kids for coping with bullying is important. Sometimes it just isn't enough! In the case where there is no respite, daily and constant torture, whether physically or mentally, seemingly nowhere to turn, no opportunity to find other friends (as in my case - small school, 20 or so kids in each grade), etc. anxiety and depression can set in to a point which you feel there is no hope.

In my case my parents tried everything, bolstering me up, sending me to a local modelling academy (at the time and in my place, the girl's version of martial arts classes;)), telling me that it would blow over (well 4 months in with no let up whatsoever, you stop believing that), contacting the school and parents of the kids to try to get it to stop (that only gave them more ammunition), keeping me home, etc. Nothing worked, it went on and on until the emotional disturbance led to physical manifestations and illness.

What would you all have suggested my folks do? They were at wits end, trying everything they could to help me, as they saw me wasting away, sick and miserably unhappy. Their ultimate response was to take me out of the environment, and we were in a position where that was possible. It changed my life, and I am now a happy healthy adult.


As a parent, I thank God every day that my kids have come through adolescence unscathed, happy and whole. There but for the grace of God go I, and I don't judge parents who are doing the best they can, because if you haven't walked in their shoes then how are you to know what they're going through.

My comment about my parents was a furious and hasty response to something I saw as a slight to them. As my post above says, they did the best they could, they were at wits end. My mother and I spoke quite a bit about it before she passed, and she honestly was dying inside at the time, not knowing what tack to take, what to do, how to help. She was a wonderful woman, but she didn't have all the answers, just as I, now a mother, don't.

We like to think we do, but we don't, and sometimes we're just flying by the seat of our pants.

Right. Get over it. You're the only one who cares about you and your parents.

Exactly what they did do, pull you out of the school. Once it became clear to them that the girls would not stop, and the school and the other parents weren't going to do anything about it, your parents understood that the matter rested in their hands, and they did what they had to do.

Is this going to be an option for everyone? Nope. And ultimately are we going to see cases where kids don't cope well? Of course, nothing as an absolute guaranteed fix for every person on this planet. However, the bigger issue is that on all sides, we need to do better, parents, schools, and kids (where applicable).

Wow, we have had many sane and tolerant discussions and I'm frankly a bit shocked that you are being so cruel.

I am using my parents and my experience as a discussion tool, perhaps I should have just used an anonymous person. I feel that I have insight and understanding of an interesting topic and used personal experience as my basis of understanding, just as many on GC do in countless discussions.

I'm not going to flounce away, but the personal attacks are definitely unsettling, I think I'll move along quietly.

You set the tone. You really wanted this to be about you and yours despite how I kept ignoring your personal story and speaking to the general topic, so...here we are.

I don't come here to be concerned with the intricacies of every username's personal life. If we're having a discussion about something that personally impacts you, YOU have to determine whether you can discuss the topic without turning it to a discussion of you and yours. Be able to draw from personal experiences without being stuck in personal experiences. No one said that YOUR parents didn't provide the proper coping mechanisms or do all that they could do because we weren't discussing you and your parents. Ch2tf shouldn't have to calm you by telling you that your parents did what they could do by taking you out of school--but I think you may still be holding on to that pain decades later.

*putting my heart back in* I wish you well.

http://health.msn.com/kids-health/ar...4800&GT1=31036

http://www.slate.com/id/2249307/?GT1=38001

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36099680/?GT1=43001

Have these articles been posted already?

Let's please not forget that Phoebe Prince wasn't an American, and didn't really know the culture. She was an Irish teen whose parents wanted to give her a chance to learn about America.

I very thoroughly read them and stand by everything I said. You, m'dear, didn't read mine (really, are we going to play this game?:rolleyes:). The entire point is that no, she would not have "peace at home". It doesn't matter if she's engaging in conversation with these people on the internet or not, she KNOWS it's going on, everyone in the world can see it, and it will follow her forever. That's not peace.

Shut up. That is all.

Sometimes people have a profound ability to communicate for the most part through put downs and have astonishingly high opinions of themselves.

Interesting, in a topic about bullies. ;)

Your personal insight having dealt with an experience is certainly relevant and you didn't act like it applied across the board. Which is the only time I, personally, find personal stories irrelevant in threads like this.

You've got to be kidding me.

srmom, it is apparent to me that our parents had COMPLETELY different notions about what it truly means to handle the situation.

But in reference to suggestions of pulling the child out of the school, I am really amazed that someone would suggest such a thing. There is no way in hell my parents would have pulled me out of a school because the OTHER kids didn't know how to behave. Perish the thought.

Going to school officials and whining about bullies is inadequate. perhaps it is no surprise that their kids are being bullied. Those types of parents clearly aren't aggressive enough to stand up for themselves.


The sad thing is that bullies come in all ages. Even here in law school there are bullies. A recent incident in my Con Law class involved voting on whether the entire class would take a B mean. That would mean that everyone in the class would get a "B." No more, no less. I was one of three who voted against it. I'm very small so naturally I had some of my classmates trying to bully me into changing my vote. I shut that down with a quickness. And I haven't had any problems with them since.

The reality is that even when someone is small, they can't make assumptions that the bigger person is willing to back up their words with actions. You will often find that bullies operate in packs because deep down they are huge cowards.

As for fighting in schools, I have to be honest. While I don't condone that generally, if a child is being picked on, and the school officials know but won't do anything, I think that gives the kid the privilege to kick the bully's behind. Sometimes a good old-fashion a#$-whooping can solve quite a few problems. My mother told me about how there were three big girls who were picking on her at school. One day she had enough, and even though she was tiny, she kicked their butts. They left her alone.

I'm not that old, but an ass-whoopin in my day was different than the ones these days.

A fight at school rarely stops there. You may get back at the bully once, but it will likely be followed by the group coming after you.

I'm still on the fence about this issue, but just wanted to point that out.

GOOOOOOO Alumiyum! Feel better now?

But....at least their child would be alive. Why wouldn't someone consider transferring their child to a different school to keep them from being tormented and raped?

My mom wouldn't allow me to back down from anyone...this holds true to this very day. I don't know that she would have put me in a different school, but then again she would do anything to keep me from being hurt so it's possible that she would have. Kicking butt is cool, if you can fight. So suggesting that the solution is a good ole fashioned but whooping carries a little bit of a risk.

GOOD parents, in my opinion, will do whatever they have the means to do to protect their child. This doesn't mean teaching them to "fight back". I think it's a good idea for a kid to attempt to "stand up" by finding ways to respond without showing weakness. Bullies often get bored when their target doesn't react to their bad behavior. But not all bullies are picking on their peers for kicks. Some are motivated by jealously, anger, percieved revenge, etc. I doubt many parents would move to a different school due to minor bullying, and certainly it's a smart move to first talk to their kid, then the school, and if that doesn't work, keep going to the parents of the bullies and possibly the actual bully. But in my opinion a good parent would absolutely move if they've gone down all these routes with no result (if they're able...not every family has that option). There's a difference between the typical harassment many underdogs experience in junior high/middle school and the type of bullying the girls in this article were doing. "Fighting back" almost always backfires.

deepimpact, I am appalled and disgusted that anyone could possibly believe that violence is the best answer to bullying. That is the most ignorant and naive thing I've heard since someone said those being bullied just need to "man up."

Oh wait, that was you too.

Nope, but I win a cookie. I bet myself you couldn't resist.;)

In a reverse psychology world.

As a future parent (hopefully) and being that I'm currently working with my sister to choose a school district/system for my niece, I disagree. While placing my child in a different school would be the last resort, at some level beyond the school itself (district, state, etc.), when reaching the point where my complaints, charges, etc. are not making a change in the situation, I would indeed place my kid somewhere else, because ultimately what the officials in charge are telling me is that they do not have my child's welfare in mind. And while I'm going up the chain of command, I have to remember that my child may be suffering on a daily basis. And I don't begin to think that beyond a certain point I can control the actions of others. I do believe this goes beyond complaining to the principle however.

Could you please GET.THIS.SAID! Kids these days are bold, will follow you home and will try to fight adults if they get involved. These kids now fight in groups and use weapons. I'm all about standing up for yourself, and even fighting if you have to (my mom made sure of this) but you have to be careful.

She did NOT say it was the best and only answer to bullying.


As long as you're aware of the tone that you're adopting just because you disagree with her. :) GCers have a tendency to adopt a tone for ANY reason and then act shocked and holier than thou when people hand the tone back to them. :)