Um that seems to be an IFC/University decision, not a random group of people who don't agree with it.

I don't know the details or how the original colonizers so badly offended the IFC & administration; however, I feel strongly that a group of students have the right to organize as a club or a fraternity if they so chose without the approval of either the IFC or the administration. Whether it was because they didn't like the groups already there or had a special attraction to Kappa Sigma I don't see why they need anybody but Kappa Sigma's approval. As a matter of fact, it was only in very recent years that these policies of first seeking IFC permission developed. The vast majority of older chapters of every fraternity and sorority organized as a group of friends that developed into a local group that ultimately sought out a national connection. I don't think the IFC can legally bar them from membership. I suspect the regulations say that the IFC is made up of all campus chapters and if they get their charter, they're in. While the Greek administrator may wish to exert much control over the process, he/she may find other students have a desire to make their own choices.

Actually the current IFC bylaws at FGCU state under the expansion section, that any group to initiate members before recognition of the IFC is subject to 5 years of non-affiliation with IFC. The current expansion policies highly discourage positive growth of any non-recognized fraternal group.

Section 6 - Initial Violations

A. Whereas, initiating a founding pledge class without following the expansion procedures set by the Interfraternity Council will result in denial of membership into the Interfraternity Council on Florida Gulf Coast University’s campus for 5 years.

B. Whereas, if an organization that wishes to join the Interfraternity Council from this date on manages to keep their founding pledge class covert, and that organization is accepted into the Interfraternity Council without the council's knowledge of such activity, they will be prohibited from participating in Interfraternity Council events for 3 years once that information in brought to light, effective immediately.

C. Whereas, no exceptions are to be made.

It is not only the fact of being reconized as a fraternity on campus by the university but being able to use the facilities that the campus provides for the students. If FGCU does not want them to colonize yet, that is the schools choice at this time. But, these guys did not do what Sig Ep did a few years ago when their nationals pulled old before they became brothers by becoming Alpha Omega, I believe. This fraternity function and pledge in members even without being reconized. They were also able to participate intramurals as the organization and were able to use the facilities on campus. It took a few years than Sig Ep decided to recolonize at FGCU and they were still on campus as Alpha Omega. The problem is that if Kappa Sigma wishes to become a club on campus it has to be open to all students on campus, male and female. According to Kappa sigma bylaws, the fraternity is only open to males and therefore, they cannot become a club on campus. I come from a Greek System with close to 20 fraternities in it and I believe that with more faternities it makes for a better Greek community. With more Greeks you have a better chance to get more greeks in student government, internships and job placements later. Although we might like eachother at times we will su[[ort one another over a non greek. I hope that the greek community at FGCu decides that they will be better with more greeks on campus. It should show the dedication that these young men have had with all the hurdles they have had to jump to become Kappa Sigmas and hopefully part of the Greek community of campus.

They're not going to do that. That would be stupid. They're going to be an off campus club - it'll just be as if a bunch of guys joined the Rotary or Masons. They won't be able to do intramurals or meet on campus, but if they hang around long enough they'll get recognized eventually.

This seems like it basically boils down to they got off on the wrong foot due to some douchey members, and even though the douches are gone, the non-douches have to clean it up and put up with the bs. Not fair maybe, but it happens in life.

Somewhat. Regardless of the initial "bad blood", Greek Life would still most likely hold true to their controlled growth ideology. We still operate almost as if we were recognized - weekly meetings, dues, fraternal structure, pledge education, brotherhood events, community service, philanthropy, intramurals, etc. Basically the only thing we do not do now is formally interact with other greek organizations on campus. We will persevere through this, however long it takes. There are a few quotes that we, as a group of brothers in this situation, rest on.

"Victory is reserved for those who are willing to pay its price." - Sun Tzu
&
"MANET MANSURAQUE EST" (It remains and it shall remain) - The Kappa Sigma plaque at 46 East Lawn, UVA... the place of our American founding.

There is no doubt in my mind that we will succeed at this campus and bring with us advantageous changes to policy that will not only benefit ourselves - but also those individuals and organizations that oppose our being at the current time. Those are our goals... and there are 30 students, with support from countless dedicated alumni, willing and able to see it through.

:D

Examining the issue at stake. I analyze it from Kappa Sigma's perspective and FGCU's perspective. I understand FGCU's reasons for having their set of rules in place. It is a young university that is still growing. I can somewhat understand why they would want to control the growth of their greek life. But, at the same time I look at what the Kappa Sigma colony of Fort Myers has done. They have a group of 30something guys who are involved in the school, doing philanthropy,paying dues, and are all in good academic standing with FGCU. The fact that these guys are succeeding at this is impressive. If they were on campus, they would excel even more. Being able to get that many guys without being on campus is impressive. They are doing something right. If they were on campus, I bet they would double or even triple in size. K-Sig Advisor is right Lanesig. The national offices of the fraternities on FGCU's campus told their chapters there to support Kappa Sigma coming on. Sigma Chi is the only one that may have not required them. That is shocking to me because Sigma Chi is in a similar battle trying to get recognized at George Mason University. I can imagine FGCU was wanting them to fail so that this issue would just go away. I'm not saying open the flood gates, but if a group of men can meet the requirements set forth for them by their nationals, they should be recognized by the campus because they are guranteed to make the Greek Life better. I sawthe News coverage. FGCU is making themselves look worse with their responses. They have allready been caught in two lies. That is not good for their sake. They are only making Kappa Sigma look better. They are a fraternity that was started by student interest. If you went to a university and you weren't feeling any of the organizations on campus,sholud you have to sit back and not be able to be in a fraternity? I think not. I totally respect what these young men have done. The News coverage was fair. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but a sorority girl cannot tell a fraternity how to operate. Panhellenic expansion is also something I have seen. There have been so many failed sorority colonizations its not even funny. IFC and Panhellenic rules and regulations are way different. Panhellenic rules and recruitment are unreal. I went to UCF, but I now attend Texas State and I have seen sorority recruitment. The whole process is odd. Instead of you going out for a single sorority, you have to sit through them all. You can possibly end up in the sorority you didn't want because its the only one to give you a bid. Speaking for schools in the south, I've seen girls get burned out by their sororities. They spend too much time living in fear of the rules instead of enjoying their time and making memories. This is why sororities have such a high rate of girls dropping out. This is also why the number of men that stay involved in their fraternities after graduation is way higher than the number of women who stay involved in their sororities after they graduate. Sorority girls have a totally different mindset on these types of issues, which is why they may not understand the issue. What is happening with Kappa Sigma at FGCU would never happen if it was a sorority. I gurantee a group of women who wanted to start a sorority would not succeed because a sorority national hq wouldn't even give them a colony without approval of the campus. The Fort Myers colony, soon to be Rho Zeta chapter will get recognized by FGCU eventually.

Couple of things:

#1 - Not the same as Sigma Chi at George Mason. We were on campus as a recognized fraternity and got kicked off for myriad of reasons. HQ felt that the campus kicked us off without justification (I don't know all the reasons, so I can't argue them). Sigma Chi is currently unrecognized by GMU, but recognized by HQ. We did not ask to come on to campus, be asked to wait, and then said "To hell with you, we are going to colonize anyway."

#2- I won't even start on the sorority aspect. I am intrigued by the argument that there have been "so many failed sorority colonizations". The NPC, whether you agree with all of their rules or not, have their sh** (pardon me, ladies of GC) down pat. While I won't argue that every so often a colonization fails, I think history has proven that the majority of colonizations succeed and thrive.


Here is what I see the main issue: Why couldn't Kappa Sigma wait to colonize? In a totally serious question, is Kappa Sigma so desperate for colonies that it couldn't wait? Obviously, the answer is no.

Kappa Sigma chose to colonize for a campus that had a clear rule that stated that if a fraternity colonized without permission, they would have to wait 5 years for recognition. But, it looks like Kappa Sigma feels that they shouldn't have to wait or play by rules they don't agree with.

Also, go back to my question for KSig Advisor: Kappa Sigma doesn't want to be in the NIC, but apparently wants to use NIC policies and expects NIC support. Then, rejoin the NIC.

My mistake on Sigma Chi at George Mason. I apalogize. But the fact that Kappa Sigma colonized off campus is that it wasn't that their nationals came to FGCU wanting to start. The students went to Kappa Sigma asking to start. Like I said, they are a fraternity based off of student interest. The students wanted it. You ask why they couldn't wait? Many of their members are upperclassmen. They are about to graduate soon. Its not fair that they can't be in a fraternity because the school doesn't think the time is right. The students went straight to nationals and asked nationals to give them a colony. Their nationals looked at the area and found that there were enough chapters close by, a good number of alumni in the area, and a good number of students interested. Their issue is not trying to be a part of FGCU's IFC. They don't have to be. Kappa Sigma, along with Phi Delta Theta broke away from the NIC on their own terms. Kappa Sigma has left many campus IFCs on their own terms because they saw it as a waste. All the Fort Myers,FL colony wants to do is be able to meet on campus and use campus facilities. They are all students at the university and they pay their tuition to go there. Therefore they should be allowed to use campus facilities. Kappa Sigma's national rules are a lot different than Sigma Chi's when it comes to colonizing. Don't get me wrong, Sigma Chi is a great fraternity. But who's doing better nationally? Kappa Sigma. Its the 3rd largest fraternity in the nation. Kappa Sigma is way ahead of Sigma Chi nationally.

So the colony members went completely around the school to form this colony.

NIC=/=IFC.
So they want a completely unrecognized orginzation to have access to the campus facilities.

Yo, it's not all about size, or it shouldn't be. That comment alone makes me think KS is doing this for the wrong reason.

*Kappa Sigma national didn't have to take on the group of guys. They should have looked at what the rules were for FGCU.

*"They don't want to be a part of FGCU's IFC. They don't have to be." You are right. But, then why ask other fraternities to help them? And, according to the news report, none of the campus fraternities voted for their recognition. So, I guess it wasn't just Sigma Chi.

I'm editing my original post due to a sarcastic comment I made and what could be perceived as an attack on a 3rd fraternity.

I appreciate your comment about Sigma Chi being a great fraternity. I happen to think so, too.

You are implying that Kappa Sigma is better than Sigma Chi because you are the 3rd largest fraternity in the nation. Let me assure you that I hope, pray, and wish that Sigma Chi HQ never wants to be the "largest national fraternity", or 2nd, or 3rd, or 10th, or 42nd. I hope that Sigma Chi never chooses to colonize willy nilly in the hopes that we can be the largest. I sincerely don't want that. I want the directors of my fraternity to love our fraternity enough that they think carefully and honestly in every situation in order to decide what is best for us.

So, good luck to you in your quest to be whatever position in the "Top 10 Largest" you hope to be. But, please, don't ever be mistaken in thinking that Sigma Chi wishes to be in that race with you.

THANK YOU. I didn't want to reply because I wouldn't have put it so nice.

Then make yourself a RSO, restricted to the same principles as Kappa Sigma.

FTW.

What do you consider "failed" sorority colonizations? At FGCU or where? At many schools, it has nothing to do with the way the sororities expand - it has to do with the rushees being narrow minded and only wanting certain groups. The way of choosing a group in expansion is NOT something thought up by the school, it is completely through NPC. FGCU's attempt to limit the number of campus orgs is not the same thing as NPC expansion.

This is completely untrue, and you must have the brain capacity of a toad if you don't get the basic concepts of NPC recruitment and colonization and how they work (and how they thrive). It's not that hard. PNMs with no greek family members and no frame of reference understand it better than you do.

just for the record, there have only ever been three npc sororities at fgcu and they are all doing very well.

now if fgcu would just allow some greek housing......

This argument is going no where. I'm gonna walk away before it gets really heated. I don't wanna see things get out of control. We all have our opinions on the issue. I'm gonna end it at this. Its not a matter of if Kappa Sigma will be recognized by FGCU. Its a matter of when. The university will eventually recognize them. Like you mentioned Lanesig, they did a similar off campus colonization and chapter at Arkansas-Fort Smith. They were eventaully recognized by the school.

See you in 5 years :)

I gurantee its gonna happen a lot sooner than that. Just wait and see. I won't go into details. :)

Oh, this is nothing compared to what can happen around here -- this isn't even lukewarm yet.

Yesterday, you won at life.

Working on it! Friends in facilities planning tell me its in the works :)

that is good news!! you all deserve it.

Well said Brother!

I'm not interested in debating or discussing the whole situation, but as an aside, do you think what you've posted on GC is something Kappa Sigma and FGCU administration would look favorably upon? If I was associated with a group who had some crappy people who already made things difficult, and I was fighting a system I found unfair, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself.

Plus I know big squirrels would come out of all kinds of trees.

I am writing this in response to posts earlier today by "rex in effect", who is a loyal Kappa Sig, and "LaneSig", who is an equally loyal Sigma Chi.

"rex in effect" states, in part, that Kappa Sigma is the 3rd largest fraternity in the nation, and that Kappa Sigma is way ahead of Sigma Chi nationally.

"LaneSig" attempts to distinguish the unrecognized Sigma Chi colony at George Mason University ["GMU"] from the unrecognized Kappa Sigma colony at Florida Gulf Coast University ["FGCU"]

As a Kappa Sigma alumnus of more years than I care to admit, one who has been involved in interfraternal affairs for the past three decades, and one who has a thoroughgoing knowledge of both Kappa Sigma's and Sigma Chi's expansion policies, and where both fraternities have chapters, active and dormant, as well as their general operations in all sorts of areas, I can advise "rex in effect" that although both he and I might not like it, Sigma Chi presently has more active chapters and colonies than Kappa Sigma does, and, frankly, that Sigma Chi has more of them at well-known, quality schools with sound academic reputations. Kappa Sigma is certainly NOT ahead of Sigma Chi in this regard. Kappa Sigma has been expanding vigorously in the past five or six years (as has Delta Chi, Sigma Pi, Pi Kappa Phi, Fiji, and a number of other fraternities), but a number of the chapters it has established in that time are at little-known and lightly-regarded schools. As a Kappa Sig, I don't like this. Nor do many other Kappa Sig alumni. We see it as the "Tekeification" of the Fraternity ... hopefully most of you who are reading this thread will understand that reference. But that is the expansionary road that the powers that be in the Fraternity have chosen to take. And one lane in that road has been to recognize colonies at a number of schools, not just FGCU, which did not at the time enjoy official recognition by the school's administration and/or IFC. In some cases, such recognition did come in due course; in other cases, such lack of formal recognition has continued well past those colonies having received their charters as active chapters. Common sense says that sooner or later such recognition will be forthcoming, if the unrecognized chapter can survive until then without it. But whether or not such chapters can succeed in the long run without such recognition remains to be seen. It is a work in progress at several schools.

I would also state, although again I do not like conceding it, that Sigma Chi actually is far ahead of Kappa Sigma in all sorts of areas nationally: Sigma Chi has a much more balanced distribution of its active chapters across the entire USA and Canada than Kappa Sigma; Sigma Chi has a much lower percentage of dormant/inactive chapters in relation to the total number of charters granted than Kappa Sigma does; Sigma Chi enjoys a significantly higher degree of alumni support, both numerically and financially than Kappa Sigma does; Kappa Sigma's quarterly magazine, The Caduceus, is a rag compared to its Sigma Chi counterpart, The Magazine of Sigma Chi.

Having said that, however, LaneSig's attempted distinction between Sigma Chi's unrecognized colony at GMU and Kappa Sig's at FGCU is an artificial one. While the distinction he makes is valid, the facts of the matter are that both fraternities were not invited by the respective schools to colonize there at that time, but both have colonized there anyway, and both colonies are recognized by their respective fraternities. Furthermore, both fraternities also have colonies at other schools at which those colonies are not officially recognized by those schools' respective administrations and/or IFCs, as do a number of other fraternities (and perhaps sororities as well). Those fraternities all regard such unwillingness to extend recognition as an interference with their groups' rights of free association.

It is well and admirable for members of all fraternities and sororities to be proud of and loyal to their respective organizations. But they should be sure to actually know what they are talking about when they make public statements stating that their fraternity "is better than", "is ahead of", "has more chapters than", "is more progressive or more conservative than", etc. some other fraternity. They will be mistaken more often than not; the more sweeping the generalization, the less likely it is to be correct. Most active chapter members, i.e. most undergraduates, have very little knowledge of their own fraternity at the (inter)national level, let alone about other fraternities (what little they think they know is usually the self-congratulatory, self-promotional, but often not entirely factually correct PR pap that their fraternity feeds them, which virtually all fraternities do); in fact, most undergraduate members have very little knowledge of their own and other fraternities past their own campuses; in fact, it constantly amazes me just how little members of any one fraternity on any given campus know about the other fraternities on their own campuses, let alone about their own fraternity and other fraternities on a larger scale.

Thank you for your thoughtful insight. Please know that I am in no way attempting to discredit Kappa Sigma as an organization. If it has appeared that way, I do apologize.

However, where the matter of our George Mason University chapter is concerned, I do know of where I speak. The Iota Xi chapter was colonized with the full approval of GMU. It is the result of later actions that led to the chapter being banned from GMU for 10 years, but still recognized by our HQ.

http://www.corsulian.com/wiki/index.php/%ce%a3%ce%a7

I knew of the GMU case, but found this article that will back up my statements. Admittingly, the article does not make the chapter look good, but it also shows that we are/were not in the same situation that Kappa Sigma currently finds themselves in with Florida Gulf Coast University.

Re: The Iota Xi Chapter of Sigma Chi

I am a member of the Greek Community at George Mason University. Sigma Chi was banned before I came to Mason, however, I have enough insight into the situation to tell you that it is not comparable with Kappa Sigma at FGCU.

Establishment is an important criteria in the distinction. Additionally, I trust that Sigma Chi investigated the situation fully, and determined the chapter's actions to be unworthy of the university punishment. None of our organizations want to keep bad chapters open, and if Sigma Chi had found the Iota Xi Chapter to be in the wrong I'm sure they would not have hesitated to shut them down. This is radically different from a University saying, "We don't want you to expand here."

Tekeification? TKE is a great fraternity. They are the largest fraternity nationally. They are also way younger than Kappa Sigma and Sigma Chi. They were founded in 1899. Sigma Chi seems to have a more quality ver quantity approach when it comes to their colonizations. I have nothing against that. That is what they choose to do and they are very large nationally. But, a high number of chapters is crucial in fraternal organization. For example, Delta Upsilon, 80 active chapters. Chi Phi, 53 active chapters. Alpha Gamma Rho, 72 active chapters. These smaller chapters would be quick to colonize and charter at any university so that they can grow.

No.

To bring this discussion back on track (Kappa Sigma at FGCU)

I propose this question to all of you, especially those that are in opposition of open expansion now. If a group of young men, tuition paying students of the university can:

Form a dues paying, nationally recognized interest group/colony of 1/3 the membership of the largest fraternity on campus. Also, have that group of men meet the checklist per requested by their national headquarters (GPA, community service hours per man, fundraising dollars per man, campus involvement, by-laws, code of conduct, etc...).

Should they not be voted upon favorably for recognition to IFC? Surely they would bring about beneficial competition... I assure you this is no easy task. Whomever group completes this task is more than capable of adding strength to the IFC and to Greek Life.

I know my own current colony and future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma will, when we do get recognized at FGCU, at least double in size in quality men and perfect our operations - thus increasing the efforts across the board for all chapters on campus. And trust me, the community will reap the benefits of such policy change.

Really? Then how would you explain Psi Upsilon, one of the oldest and most influential fraternities in the country, having a conservative expansion policy and only 46 chapters ever established?

No. The IFC had a very clear policy that you choose to ignore out of hand. It is all about being part of the Greek SYSTEM, not just a bunch of individual chapters. If you ignored the policy about something as clear cut as expansion, how could they expect you to follow any other policies they might make?

To me, this is the key issue. You admit yourself that your colony will be more successful after it gains university recognition. I want my organization to colonize where it will be most successful, and campus recognition is an important part of that. I want my organization's colonies to receive the most support they can, in addition to benefiting most individually from their fraternal experience. So generally, I do oppose expansion without university consent, it jeopardizes the strength of my fraternity and prohibits our members from receiving all of the benefits of being a fraternity at that university.

Only if that fraternal organization (1) equates health with size and (2) can support/service all of its chapters as needed.

This group of men don't want to follow the rules BEFORE being recognized, but they'll follow the rules if they get recognition?

Nope.

ETA: I think LaneSig said this -- if you're not part of NIC, why are you trying to use NIC's open expansion policy to support your arguments?

Generally speaking, I agree with the idea of free association (open expansion) as set forth by the NIC. However, that applies only to NIC member organizations.

Regardless, there is no oversight or governance by the NIC over a campus IFC similar to what the NPC and the NPHC have with their campus councils. And most campus IFCs include non NIC members such as Kappa Sigma and Phi Delta Theta as well as other local, regional and inter/national fraternities as applicable. As such, the rules and guidelines set forth by the local campus IFC are the ones to be followed by those seeking to be a member of the IFC. In other words, to join a campus IFC, a fraternity (NIC or not) needs to "play by their rules".

In the meantime, I wish the future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma all the best. Hopefully the issues about recognition will be resolved soon to the satisfaction of both Kappa Sigma and FGCU.

Like I stated beforehand, policies and rules constantly change. It is only a matter of time and an agent to bring about the change. If humanity blindly and without question followed policies and rules set forth we would not be as advanced as we are today. Same concept applies here I believe...

"He who rejects change is the engineer of decay, for evolution not only is advantageous for its subjects but is essential for their survival."

So while those in opposition of change hold tight to the current policies on expansion, we will push for change for the benefit of all. In this case, the positive far outweighs the negative... some just choose not to open their eyes and see it though.

On the other hand, if we didn't follow any rules, it'd lead to anarchy. Even if the group successfully expands to the campus, there will be more rules that its members will have to adhere to. Would you encourage them to break those rules, too?

But thanks for the quote :rolleyes:

No. Epic fail.

A public institution cannot suspend or discipline students for joining the org, but it is not "legally bound" to provide a group that they didn't invite or approve with meeting spaces, mail privileges etc. Your argument will open the doors to Hitler Youth Corps, Greenpeace, JC Chasez Fan Club demanding space on campuses even if they don't meet the definition of a registered student org.

You obviously aren't in favor of civil liberties for students, since the students in charge of your particular IFC DID vote, and they voted that they didn't want you on campus. If they (as you allege) voted against their national orgs because they thought it was the wrong thing for the campus and because y'all were douches...well, more power to them. I'm sure there are times when students are buffaloed into things they don't want to do by the higher ups, good to see someone standing up to it.

Form the colony as an off campus group and go about your business. Most likely, if you hang in there, you will eventually be approved as a registered student org/IFC member - but not if you keep whining and stamping your feet and singing "don't care how I WANT IT NOW!!"

Honestly, you guys all need to STOP POSTING. You sound like a bunch of spoiled brats.