I dunno. Sometimes I think what's wrong with this country is that parents are doing the work -- like getting all of the details on the costs of sorority membership --- that their "young adult" children should be doing. If we're talking about teaching life lessons, I think I learned a lot more when my parents said "You get all the details, tell us what they are, and then we'll talk about what we're willing to pay for and what you'll have to pay for yourself if you want it."

Am I the only one who thinks having Panhellenic give a stated range for fees is acceptable? I know there is a large difference between the high and low, but if you just budget for the high, you should be able to afford anything below that amount, right? College is expensive, and so is Greek life, but if one grand is seriously going to break the bank, maybe joining a sorority should be reconsidered.

This is not meant toward the OP, but just to the disclosure discussion in general.

Yes, although I think a range (sorority dues range from $200 to $800 per semester) rather than an average (sorority dues average $500 a semester) is preferable. Too many people see the latter and think "oh, they all cost $500" and freak out when that isn't the case. Of course that isn't what we all learned in grade school math about averages but many of us were sleeping through that unit, I think. :p

Maybe it's reverse and she really wants to know what the expensive ones so her daughter can strive for the more expensive = more elite houses :rolleyes:

If that's the case....if you have to ask which are elite, you have probably already been cut. :cool:

She said:

If so, what would be wrong with that? A high school senior should definitely inquire about the exact costs of the colleges she's considering, and it's her right to expect it. It is very common, and smart, to take into account the net cost of each college and to factor that into the decision-making process.

All of you who think it would be undesirable to consider costs when ranking sororities, do you also think it's wrong to consider costs when choosing a college? If not, why not?
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ShaggMyPussy

Why is it a poor comparison?

Here's what I'm hearing on this thread: On pref night, a student might have two options. Either one would be OK, but ultimately, she has to choose which one to rank first. Lots of pros and cons might enter into this decision, but relative cost cannot be one of them.

Similarly, a student might have two college acceptances. Either college would serve her needs adequately, but ultimately, she needs to decide which one is her first choice. Lots of pros and cons might enter into this decision, and relative cost should be part of the calculation.

Why? How come pragmatic considerations don't belong in one decision process, but they do in the other?
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SweetyPussycat

Yep. Most campuses use a system that makes it very hard for girls to cut groups. They just get to rank them low. The system is designed to yield one bid to each girl.

I think that each group should furnish information about lifetime estimated costs to each pledge before initiation and that a girl could justifiably chose not to be initiated into that group it if cost too much.

So what? We all read stories here about PNMs who are totally torn on pref night, loving two houses. If they're very similar, and one costs $7000/year less than the other, why not rank the cheaper one first? Maybe, like the OP, she could afford either one, but it'd be really nice to save that $28,000 (over four years) if she can.

And at many campuses -- like Bama -- a girl's one and only shot at rush is freshman year. If she has to drop before initiation, that's probably the end of the Greek line. Why deny her the opportunity to take cost into consideration earlier in the process? It increases the odds that she ends up in a house she can afford.
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red head girl Webcam

Because she only gets to rank; she doesn't really get to really choose. In the college situation, she has much more control of the whole situation.

I have no problem requiring groups to disclose costs, but it still doesn't allow the girl to really shape her recruitment based on that information. If the less expensive groups drop her, she's going to go back to parties at the more expensive chapters.

I don't have any interest in denying her the information. It still doesn't give her much more control.


ETA: and I think Bama has an upperclassmen quota, but I still understand your point. Re-rushing for a cheaper house isn't going to be a big success.

Coming from a campus where girls WILL drop a chapter based on whether or not they can afford your dues, we make it very clear on philanthropy night what the dues are.

Dues should never be some huge chapter secret. A range that was published may not work if you have a cap of X amount and it really is important. Why even look at XYZ if all you can afford is LMN? And why should they look at you if you're not an option for them either?

I can not imagine a chapter NOT telling the PNMs what dues are. Most chapters (that I know of anyway) have new members sign papers saying they'll be financially responsible for dues if you are 18 or older and will face collection agencies if they do not (although apparently some have parents co-sign regardless :rolleyes:). I'm wondering if girls at these chapters ever see those papers or if they only need a parent signature.

Low C, you realize that her ranking doesn't solely determine which group she gets right? And you also know that the costs are variable from year to year?

I'm not making the case that financial information is therefore useless to PNMs, but sorority recruitment doesn't work enough like college acceptance for the analogy to work that well although it might be a great analogy for fraternities since guys can get more than one bid.

The issue isn't that chapters don't tell members; it's how much information is given to potential members and how much they are able to act on it.

When you talk about girls dropping chapters, are you talking after bids are given out? If it's during recruitment, how do the PNMs cut chapters if they aren't invited back to more than the max?

I was referring specifically to the time during recruitment. (I thought I was clear-sorry for the mix up, it came out kinda funky). If a girl has the option, at my school she will definitely rank certain chapters lower based on what she can afford or drop out altogether and I really wouldn't blame her. If she can't pay for those she has left then there are no other options. Also, two of the more popular chapters are considerably less expensive than the ones that are not as popular. That doesn't help.

There was nothing wrong with the way you said it; I just couldn't match up how it would work with the way PNMs do ranking.

And your other point about popular chapters being less expensive is one of the reasons why it would a hard thing to fix.

It is probably really healthy though for campus panhellenics to have have very specific disclosure sheets for well defined expenses so that PNMS can know they are comparing apples to apples and so that chapter can re-evaluate their spending if it's seriously out of whack.

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Usually it's the opposite - the "elite" houses have mega-numbers of members to spread out costs, while the smaller houses have fewer members with whom to share the burden.

I can't wait till someone comes on here "totally torn" about which man to marry and she says one is partner in a law firm and the other works at McDonald's. That will be a good time to bust out this response.

FWIW, my group was one of the cheaper ones on campus, and that did attract some women - however, I don't think anyone pledged solely because of the money issue. National dues factored in, and had we had a different type of women, dues probably would have cost more, if that makes any sense.

The spouse analogy doesn't really work either, in fairness to Low C, especially if you are talking about a recruitment that occurs mainly for freshmen before school even starts.

Low C Sharp's point would be a great one for COB or for a system that allowed a girl to get more than one bid.

But since I feel that most PNMs don't control their recruitment experience as much as they react to cuts (or at least that's my impression based on being most familiar with a system where everyone's top few tend to be the same after round one; most don't end up there), I don't think know that sharing the information really gives the PNM much more control over the situation. They can know it and consider it, but it's not like weighing two places where you know you've been accepted.

But I wouldn't overly romanticize the recruitment process. You aren't choosing a soul mate. You're getting matched to a group that has the potential to do great things for your and with you. Many of us even believe we could have been happy and successful in other groups had the one we joined not worked out.

I don't think so either although I thought LCS was a woman. (Isn't that kind of strange that we'd both have attached genders to the user?)

I sort of feel like LCS is a university/ college admissions person but I don't know why I made that up.

I think what he or she suggests seems very reasonable, except that it suggest more PNM control over where she ends up than I think they really have.

I do think that it would be wonderful for panhellenics to not only give ranges or averages, but to actually make detailed information available on materials sent to PNMs through panhellenic. Not just of what's required, but of average other expenses too. How much is formal? How many t-shirts are sold in a given year? Sophomore year, how much would it could to have a little sister, etc?

I realize these numbers could vary, but just giving info on dues underestimates what one will actually spend, and again, I think it would be helpful to groups to see how what they are spending compares to other groups, in addition to helping the PNMS.

I also think that telling people up front what the estimated four year costs will be might help get rid of some people's perception that it's just a club you can quit at any time.

If I recall, LCS was in an a capella group at a school where the process for joining them was competitive and a lot like rush.

Oh I agree, you're preaching to the choir. BA DUMP BUMP

Low C Sharp is an alto who compared herself to Daria, and therefore (I hope), female.

I've been around GC since 2001, and I understand the process perfectly well. If I need to pass a Green Book quiz before I can contribute to the thread, I'm happy to take it.

If my potential spouse was going to charge me a lot of money, I'd sure as hell want to know how much it would be before I accepted a ring. Especially if, as at Bama, it's probably the only ring I'll ever get. Furthermore, if I wanted to discuss our financial future together during courtship, and he wouldn't discuss it and held it against me that I asked...I'd think that was deeply unfair of him.

A woman DOES always have a choice...she can decide not to list a sorority she can't afford on her pref card. If she gets a less-expensive option, then great, and if she doesn't, no one will ever know why she dropped from recruitment. In contrast, if she shows up at Bid Day, her name is in the paper as a new member of XYZ, and she has to drop when she finds out the cost, that happens in public. Not to mention that it would be much more disappointing to discover that the sorority is unaffordable after enjoyig the Bid Day fun versus knowing from the get-go that XYZ is just not an option.

Yes, given Bama's system, the best advice is not to rush unless you can afford the top of the stated range. But it would really be nice if students who can't quite afford the most expensive chapter had the opportunity to shoot for an affordable chapter.

Yes, costs can change from year to year. But a multi-thousand-dollar shift is unlikely absent house acquisition or some other major development, and that kind of change is generally well publicized.

This. Especially with the 200-woman chapters at Bama. No one who makes a good faith effort can fail to make friends in a group that size.
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Mflb information

Alabama Bid Day time
 

I am trying to find out what time Bid Day is at Alabama on Sunday. We called it Squeal Day in my time but I am considering driving over. The panhellenic web site does not have it posted. Thanks!

Nancy:)

It's at noon, Nancy.

I wonder how margretlee's daughter's Rush went!

My daughter had an amazingly wonderful time at rush. She took off two old row sororities due to unknown cost estimates, and they invited her back anyway, haha. She took them off her list a second time, and they dropped her. So whoever thinks that the PNM has no control over rush is mistaken, If you truly don't want to get invited back, you can make that happen by just not acting interested. These two were not her top choices, anyway.

During final round she got selected to her top choice of her three Preference Day parties. So she is very happy and very excited. Along the way she got cut by a couple that she was interested in, and pursued by a couple that she was not interested in, but at the end of the day she thinks that she has found a really good fit!

I had decided not to post here again, but changed my mind for a couple of reasons. Not everyone on here is rude (I guess that's a subjective term, but assuming that my daughter would be cut, calling her the "Salesman's daughter", saying my comments were "tacky". "snobby", etc. is considered rude where I come from), as I had several private messages to me apologizing for the rudeness shown. (Incidentally, my husband is a stock broker. I do not think that there is any shame in that.) But the main reason I am following up with this update is that I read on another forum where a young lady, unrelated to us, had similar questions. People were giving her the same advice: drop out. My advice to her, if it's not too late, is don't drop out! My daughter has been having the time of her life bonding with her new sorority sisters, and I am so glad we did not listen to that advice!

I hope that the Greek system at Bama and elsewhere will do a better job of informing PNM of the costs. Would not that be better upfront? Then they might not lose so many members in the future due to financial reasons. Incidentally, my daughter received NOTHING regarding costs from ANY sorority at Bama during the entire rush process, including the one with which she pledged. She had to rely on the sheets given out at Panhellenic weekend (and the ones NOT given out.) I hope that the Panhellenic there will do a better job, as these sororities may be missing out on some really top notch, classy girls with good reputations and great grades if they don't make the info. available in the future. BTW, to the poster who suggested we email or call Panhellenic if it was such a big deal, I did send an email to them prior to ever joining this board. Unfortunately, it went unanswered. I guess cost is a forbidden topic at Bama rush, because my daughter did not feel comfortable asking at any time.

Many, many thanks for the words of encouragement from the 7 people who sent me private messages. Thank you for taking the time to write to me. "All's well that ends well."

Is this honestly why members drop out? I've never heard that before - I thought it was more due to burnout. Unless the poster means rushees instead of members.

The only reason I suggested that your daughter drop out is because you apparently wanted her to choose a sorority based on price, rather than how she felt about the chapter. That's unfair to her and a horrible position to put her in. I sincerely hope that she ends up ok with the group she is in, rather than wishing a few years down the road that she had been able to look at the old row (barf, I can't believe I'm even typing that) groups she cut. Or should I say - that you pretty much forced her to cut.

From my experience, girls drop the most for the following "main" reasons:

1)transfer to different institution for various reasons
2)money issues
3)grades
4)bad fit (for lack of better words)

I meant members, not rushees. I have two friends that are alums who are very actively involved with their chapters, and they told me that grades & financial are the two main reasons that they see girls drop out.

No, I did not want her to choose one based on price rather than how she felt. I wanted her to find a good fit that was affordable for us. There is a difference. If we were merely shopping for price, I would have been seeking out the lowest priced one. That is absoultely not true. I doubt the old row houses that she took off of her list would have kept her in the end anyway, as they pretty much took their own legacies first. My daughter is intelligent enough to know that if she got in over her head financially, that she would look back and regret that. I think that for you to call what I did unfair is really a good indicator of your total lack of grasp of the situation. You apparently would rather see a really wonderful girl sit off to the side and always and forever wonder what sorority life would have been like, than to see her in a place where she is very happy. Because that is exactly what would happen if she pledged one and we got a bill for $6K per semester. She would have had to withdraw, and I wanted to spare her that embarrassment. This way, she is happy, we are happy, and the sorority is very happy to have her. Why on earth would you want to deprive someone of that experience, just because they cannot afford the most expensive one? That makes zero sense to me. BTW, the only person that matters in this issue is my daughter, and she recognizes the current economic climate, and has never once acted like I was being unfair to her. Besides that, "Life is not always fair." It's a sad fact, but we all have to deal with it at some point or another. Learning to compromise is an essential life skill and I am most proud of my daughter for going through this excercise with grace and dignity.

Or perhaps a good indicator that your explanations of the situation in your first posts didn't come across quite the way you meant them to, maybe? Just maybe?

OK, so we have seen the "average" costs on the UA Panhellenic website. On Panhellenic weekend, some sororities gave out cost sheets. However, not all of them did. We can defintiely afford a sorority, especially one of the "average" cost ones. However, we would prefer to stay in that range, so that she will have plenty of money for clothes, tshirts, etc. Is there anyone here that can tell us which ones are the most expensive ones, or rank them according to approximate
cost?
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We have money allotted for this, so don't need a payment plan, but would love to stay within a certain range, as we have two other kids coming up right behind her!

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IDK how I could have been any clearer. We have some money set aside, but don't want to exceed it, so we wanted to make sure and stay in that range????????

In my post I also meant members.

I haven't read this whole thread, but I did want to assure the OP that most schools with a greek system do offer a financial breakdown, either prior to or at the beginning of recruitment. Maybe your daughter can become involved with the Panhellenic system, and push for that type of information to be distributed in the future.