Just so you guys know, I'm more of a lurker, but I am a current IU student and do pop up from time to time :]

Chapters at IU are HUGE. Like IUGreekGirl said, there are bigger chapters that house 100+ girls and have live-outs, and I know several girls in other chapters that honestly do not know everyone in their house. Gamma Phi and AXiD come to mind as two of the bigger chapters in terms of actual numbers of people. Most of the physical houses (with a few exceptions...Tri-Delt comes to mind as one of the smaller houses in terms of square footage) are roughly the same size though. Some are a little bigger and some are a little smaller, but roughly the same size. I'm not sure what you mean by 'sleeping porches,' but if those are the same as cold dorms...then a majority (not all, but probably ~60-75%) of the houses have those.

In terms of what people were talking about with the whole bed v. quota thing...it's a very ingrained idea at IU. As much as it pains me to say it, because I'm definitely not like that, a lot of the greeks at IU are very elitist, which fosters that culture that IUGreekGirl talked about earlier, and because of that, I think a lot of them are very hesitant to opening the greek system up. We don't have the type of competitiveness that say, Texas/'Bama/UF/LSU have, but it's cuthroat. You know the odds going into it, but you do get very emotionally invested in houses that you fall in love with, and that makes it very tough.

I would think NPC would be putting loads of pressure on the PC at IU to make some changes. I'm not sure why the Greeks would want a bunch of disgruntled women on campus. Lots of houses across the country have ways to determine who gets to live in a house. I'm sure each National group has many different ways they could be determine either by a combination of things or specific things. GPA, Year in School, How active you are in the house, community service ect.. If it is such a big part of IU greek life you would have a fair and equal way to determine who lives in and go to a fairer recruitment system. Just because something has always been done one way doesn't mean it is the right way or a good way to do things. Just putting my two cents in

I guess from my stand point as a collegiate greek, I want to live in with my sisters. You're so much more connected to the chapter.

The point of living together is to foster a welcoming and supporting community. That is completely embodied in living in the house. To have a "quasi-competition" (even if it is fair) would bait people against each other. I would be very resentful if I had a bad semester and then wasn't "qualified" enough to live with my sisters.

And again, we are wary of dumping the bed quota system because we don't want our houses to get any bigger, they're already huge. If your chapter had 200 members you wouldn't know the whole house.

many, many chapters of all 26 npc sororities have many different methods for determining who is eligible to live in the house. in the case where there are more members than there are beds, it is considered a privelege to live in. sometimes the executive officers of the house are required to live in, then a point system might be used to determine the remainder of the occupants. some things that might factor into the points are gpa,being in good financial standing, class(senior, junior, sophomore) offices and committee positions within the sorority, being a member of other campus organizations and participation in the sororities activities. if more sisters want to live in than there are beds, once the house is full, seniors have the first option to live out,followed by juniors then sophomores. it works. sure sisters might be disappointed that they are not able to live in, but more often than not, they are able to live in the house at some point in their collegiate career.

i agree with you that living in keeps you in the loop and is a wonderful way to bond with your sisters, but there are other ways. unhoused chapters feel that their sisterhood is just as strong as housed chapters and it is. in addition, unhoused sisters come to lunch and dinner, thus catching up with the housed sisters on a daily basis. hosting sisterhood activities and study hours at the house are just a few of the ways to keep the unhoused sisters involved.

it is scary to consider something different and i am the first one to feel unsettled when change occurs, so i understand your feelings. trust us when we say that having a traditional quota system replace the bed quota could work, might offer membership for more women, thus easing some of the negative feelings the bidless pnms experience.

I agree. I think IU should get rid of the bed quota system and add a chapter or two.
Everyone has asked why it is this way so I'm hoping on enlighten on why these decisions have been made.

I think this all comes down to the North and the South are different. Not better or worse...just different. The girls from IU are saying 100 is getting too huge...meanwhile there are chapters in the SEC that have 200+ and have for a while and no one bats an eye.

It's the same thing at Penn State...they have 19 chapters, but in terms of numbers, there are probably more women in sororities at Ole Miss, even though they only have 9 chapters.

This is the way women up here want it. Period. Compare Greek systems in the North and South and at schools of all sizes, you will probably see more chapters in the North for schools of comparative sizes. If the chapters at IU did change to a normal total/quota system and got to be huger than they are, I have a feeling that a lot of people who are in it wouldn't want to be part of it. I personally would have been wary of pledging a chapter of 100 and 200 I wouldn't have even rushed.

It's just a regional difference and you can't legislate it away.

You need to check out some of the threads where people were talking about expansion at SEC schools. Greek life rules there, everyone wants to be in a sorority, the chapters are stellar within their respective orgs - sounds like a no brainer. You'd think every sorority who isn't there would be tripping over themselves to apply, but that wasn't the case. At many of these schools, just the fact that the chapter hasn't been there since 1900 or so or isn't "traditionally southern" is enough to cause it to flounder forever, regardless if it has a gorgeous house or tons of alums from other chapters pumping money into it.

I don't think that kind of thing exists at IU, but I'm pretty darn sure that there's no way ANY sorority is going to come onto that campus without housing equal to or better than the existing chapters. And if there is one group that's struggling WITH a great house, that makes it even less of a place you want to go.

Point being is when a group goes into a "tough" school the entire org has to make sacrifices, down to the collegians at Wassamatta U who don't even know the expansion is happening.

That's a really good point 33girl and something I never would have thought of. But it definitely would be difficult to compare IU to an Ole Miss

IUGirl, I agree that living in does make you bond more with your sisters. Usually most girls are ready to move on in their senior year to an apartment- at least that was how it was when I was in the house.

If there are 1600 women going through and 19 Chapters that would be a quota of 84, but you have to take into account girls that drop out because they are not interested in being Greek or get cut. So with a 75% placement rate that would put quota at somewhere around 63. Is there a total set for IU and I would be curious to see how many Seniors on average graduate each year. I would think that with girls doing semesters abroad, dropping out of school and quiting the sorority it would all balance out and make recruitment a lot more enjoyable for your new members.

Any way, I wish you guys the best of luck. Maybe some changes will come with some time.

When I was in college, you couldn't get into the house until your senior year, unless you were an officer, so everyone looked forward to living together in the house senior year! So I guess everyplace is different!

This quota system seems really brutal when so many girls are left out even after going all the way through rush and preffing - and this year it was 150 people??? WOW!

My daughter will be a freshman at IU this fall and is very excited about going through rush (sorry, recruitment). The houses on your campus are beautiful. I was in a house many years ago at University of Oregon where it wasn't competitive at all, so the IU process is quite intimidating. We've been told letters of reference are extremely important at IU. Could you ladies give us some advice on how it works? To whom do we have friends send letters (local chapters? your panhellenic group? local alumni organization?)? And when should they be sent? Does she need a letter for every house if she has any hopes of being asked back? And also, is she at a disadvantage not being from Indiana (we live in Northern California)? Thanks for any help you could give us as we figure this all out.

The person writing the recommendation should know when, where, and to whom to send it.

Well actually, if someone asked me to write a reco I'd have absolutely no idea when, where or to whom to send it. Where does one find that info?

sometimes the collegiate chapters list an address where you could send recommendations on their chapter website.

definately try to have a recommendation to each of the chapters at IU. you never know which chapter your daughter will fall in love with during recruitment.

Personally I didn't find rec letters to be an issue, but that was just with my experience. Also, being from out of state doesn't matter, I've found. I know girls in chapters from TONS of different states

Yeah we're definitely not concerned about where you're from haha.

But on recs- all houses deal with recs differently. I didn't have a rec to the house I ended up joining so it isn't the number one thing on our list when we're rushing girls.

But it's a good idea to get has many recs to the 19 houses as possible. It can only help you!

I'm going to be a freshman @ IU in the fall and will definitely rush!! I'm really excited, but there's not much info on the IU Greek Life website...i know we rush way later then most schools, so that may be why there's not a whole lot of info for formal recruitment 09-10 right now. However, I need let all my sponsors know when & where to send their rec letters. I've looked at all the chapter websites & not all of them have been updated recently. Are there any current students at IU right now that could tell me just the general time I should send in letters? I'd also like to know where exactly to send them...is it the sorority house, the national headquarters? Thanks so much!

All you need to do as a PNM is provide an alum with your resume and picture(s). A copy of your transcript may be encouraged depending on the particular school. Also providing a pre-stamped envelope would be thoughtful so she doesn't have to pay for postage.

The alums send in letters of Rec, not the PNM. They should be be sent to the Chaptes, not to I/natl headquarters. ALums should be able to find the correct mailing addresses on their I/natl website or their I/natl magazine. They ought to be able to find the appropriate form(s) there too.

Don't worry, alums should know all this. (If they don't then it's time they learn. :))

They should be sent to the chapter at its official address on campus. And I would say that they could be sent starting now. That way they can look for you on campus this fall and perhaps some will already know you by recuitment.

Information about where to send everything should be on the house's National Organization page.

So kappakappagamma.org
not
http://www.indiana.edu/~kkg/

All of the above advice is definitely correct, and you can send them up until I'd say a month before 19 party...which I'M not entirely sure when that is yet, haha.

IUGreekGirl--Interested in doing a recruitment story this fall from the other side? I'm pondering it...

Haha I'm trying to keep my affiliation a secret on here so we'll see.

Considering the cost of competitive housing, adding new chapters is not very likely. Having just participated in building a brand new, very large chapter house (at a different campus), I can tell you that it potentially strains the entire international organization to achieve such a feat. My educated guess is that only one NPC not presently at IU would have the resources to even consider this. It is a huge gamble to invest so much into a new, unproven chapter.

I'm not sure how I missed this thread.

I've posted before in previous threads and I'll post my opinions/advice again as an alum of the IU greek system.

To me, its not the quota or system that is failing, its the PNMs going through recruitment that are doing it to themselves.

Many have commented on adding a house or getting rid of the bed quota. I don't think that's the right solution at all. The biggest issues are with PNMs not presenting themselves in the best light or giving up because they only got invited back to one or two houses each round. If people only took the advice of some of the women on this board and would read recruitment stories about how opinions of houses change each party, then maybe some would stick around long enough to explore the houses that they did get invited back to.

Many PNMs take the process seriously and are respectful to all houses, but some aren't and are just flat out rude. In fact, having been on multiple sides of recruitment, the attitudes of women have just gotten increasingly worse over the years. Rumors fly or they think they have bids easily to houses, only to get discouraged. Having friends or being a legacy does NOT guarantee you a bid. Being wealthy or skinny doesn't mean you'll get into a house. PERSONALITY is what does it.

Some houses are in high demand and have no issues with quota. Others are struggling now or barely miss quota but have no problems making it up with snap bids or COR. Eliminating the bed quota would just increase numbers to houses already bursting at the seams. The unique aspect of the IU system is that houses are just the right size for a big campus, not so large where you barely know anyone in your pledge class. The idea is to have all houses full -- eliminating the quota would surely squash all chances of that happening. Also, grade drops are another high number that few girls take into account. Here's where word of mouth gets people trying to do the popular thing -- a friend may not continue with recruitment saying the process is dumb or they don't want to go Greek when they actually didn't make grades. The person's excuse gets another girl thinking and they end up dropping. It actually happens a lot more than people think.

Almost all women have the potential to get placed, its just that many choose not to continue with recruitment or suicide during pref. The approx 150 without bids will suicide a house instead of maybe receiving a bid from a house they didn't love. Everyone should at least give one house a try. Who knows, it may be completely different when you're actually going through your new membership period and see the women in a different light than you did during rush. It happened to me and many others.

The greek system is a huge deal at IU and I agree that many are bitter about not getting bids, but mostly for the wrong reasons.

Hope this makes sense. Its ridiculously late, but I couldn't go to bed without clearing up some of the "advice" that some so-called experts are giving. Yes, times have changed in the few years that I've left IU, but the basics are still the same and I've still been around rush lately.

I really have no opinion on the bed versus quota debate, I think there are advantages to each, and if we went to quota...quite frankly I think we'd have no choice but to add another chapter due to the number of girls that have to be placed.

VAgirl leaves out one crucial group though: the sophomore rush group, which I was a part of last year. I saw girls get cut from all houses after the first round, all but one, or all but two, and they were the one or two that they wanted to cut because they didn't click with them. As a sophomore, unless you ARE that girl with the friends/money/looks/etc, it's a very very tough road, often full of tears. I was in half-sophomore half freshman rho gamma group (so ~10-12 sophomores), and of the sophomores...only 2 of them got bids, 3 if you count my COB later. One actually was rushing for a second time because she wanted to go greek that bad, got cut again, and transferred out of IU. She's now a member of a house at an SEC school (don't ask me how, I have no idea, haha).

I just think that IU's system does have some flaws, and I'm saying that as a current member. We change the party structure this year, but I really don't necessarily see that helping much. It gives a chance for houses to invite back girls that they are borderline on, but does that translate to bids? I really don't think so.

You can't add another house when there are houses that still have space. It will never happen. Before that, a house would have to close and would most likely be given the chance to recolonize a few years later. They would probably form an agreement with a closing house so that no other houses will open during their dormancy.

Being a sophomore seriously isn't much of an issue. The problem stems from many women going through the process for a second time. Though people deserve second chances, many women acted horribly immature to the point of being remembered the next year and automatically getting cut. Another huge faux pas is getting invited to a few homes and then deciding not to continue with rush. They're most likely going to get those houses back during their second time through and why would a house want someone who didn't even have the respect to attend the party they were invited to the year before? THAT'S where the cuts stem from. That and if you're a sophomore, more people know you from seeing you around campus or being around class. Remember to be nice to everyone. If we hear you talking about people during class or being less than classy at frats, chances are you're getting cut for that reason.

The fact is that not all people are meant to be in houses and just because one wants to be in a house doesn't mean they are a good fit for any of the houses on campus. Its unfortunate that they can't find a fit, but they're naive to think that they automatically deserve a spot because they participated.

The other think I think is going to backfire is increasing the number of invites. Its already a daunting task to go from 12, 6, and 3 parties in a few days. Adding more parties is just going to increase fatigue. People may not be putting their best foot forward just for the simple fact that they're tired. Another flaw is that people think just because they only got 3 houses instead of invited back for 12 that they're not sorority material. Obviously someone thought something of you to invite you back. There are no houses that automatically invite everyone back, contrary to popular belief.

VAGirl,
There are a good number of women that go through rush and decide to drop out. Like you said, not everyone can be Greek. But rush is the time where girls who are considering Greek life find out if it's a community they want to be a part of. And some of those girls get houses back and chose not to go through with it, not because of petty reasons. But because they have decided that Greek life in general isn't for them. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But the numbers show that the majority of women who are left without a bid on bidday have gone though the process as far as the process would allow them to go, have made grades, and have had a good clean rush. Our Rho Gammas strongly advise us against suiciding, and out of all the girls I've met who've gone through rush- I only know one who suicided. And she got that house.

I take issue with the sentiment that it's PNMs who have problems, and not the system. PNMs are completely educated by the Rho Gams as to the wrong ways to act, and the fact that just because you know a girl in a house or are a legacy there is no sure way into a bid. We all know how competitive rush is, so we put our best foot forward and hope that we either get a bid, or decide that it isn't for us. As a collegiate who has recently been on both sides of recruitment, I think that most of the PNMs understand fully what is good taste and bad taste during rush. That isn't to say that there are exceptions, there are rude girls, but with 1500 PNMs and you're trying to narrow that down to 40 girls for a new pledge class, it isn't difficult to weed out.

As to the bed quota system, I've decided for myself that it's a necessary evil, but ultimately fair, way to determine quota number. The fact that all our chapters are different sizes is truly an asset to the uniqueness of each chapter, and the IU Greek Community as a whole. However, out of the 19 chapters, only one has in recent years not made quota. The rest have more girls interested in the house that they can possibly take. While I think the bed quota system should stay, it is increasingly evident that another chapter should be invited to colonize on campus. There is more than enough interest in Greek Life to support another chapter, and I have faith that IUHoosierGirl88 and VAgirl's house will be again making quota very soon.

I completely agree with IUGreekGirl...I don't think every PNM who doesn't get a bid has something drastically wrong with her that makes her socially inept and whatnot. Sometimes the numbers just work against you, or your grade, or the girls you talked to.

I didn't recieve a bid through formal recruitment, and does that mean there's something horribly wrong with me? I certainly hope not, considering I'm a member of an amazing chapter. Granted, there are rude girls, or party girls or whatever that go through rush and get cut because of that, but there are perfectly normal girls that get cut in the same manner.

This actually isnt the case.

A struggling chapter should rarely (if ever) be used as an excuse to hold off expansion.

IU (re)added AOII in 99/2000. Not only was the colony able to get 150 girls, but the excitement that they generated encouraged MORE women to go through recruitment which in turned helped increase pledge size classes for a few chapters that were a little shy of the numbers they needed.

The chapter that was struggling didnt die...but still continues to struggle.

Had the university held off on adding a sorority to "help" the struggling group...that would be another 50+ women per year who would not have the opportunity to go greek.

A good friend of mine is helping the struggling chapter and I think they're going to be on a great upswing in the next few years. This year's recruitment will be very crucial. Keep the momentum going ladies!

I think IU could maybe add one more sorority for the time being.

What are the remaining NPC groups that don't have chapters at IU? I believe there are a small handful, and some of them had chapters there that folded. Didn't Sigma Kappa build a gorgeous house on that campus some years ago, only to have the chapter not make it? I may be recalling the wrong house, so please forgive me if I don't remember the story right anymore.

AOII did return to campus successfully, but it was a recolonization after a relatively short housecleaning, shall we say. I'm really happy that it generated such positive upswing for recruitment as a whole. But since it had a long history at IU, with a groundswell of alum and national support for a newly built home and return to active status, the chapter was on optimal footing to make a great comeback. I imagine the campus panhellenic wanted and needed this chapter to have a strong return, too, to accommodate more of the many wonderful women who go through recruitment. You really need that perfect storm, though, for everything to go right for the long term.

I am not convinced that letting go of the bed quota and live-in requirements at IU would sound the deathknell of successful chapter life at IU. Many other large state campuses do not require full chapter live-in and seem to do just fine with chapters as large as 200 women. I am sure women from those other schools are not lamenting a year living out of the house or saying that they have lost a uniqueness in chapter character for it. IU is not the only campus to have over 1,000 women going through, and yet, the placement stats there are by far the worst on a national scale. To simply say it is mostly a matter of PNM quality (or lack thereof) is inaccurate. Many of the 150 who found no match last year had maximized their options throughout recruitment. Some had a full dance ticket. Were they not worthy of membership in a house?

Yes, many IU freshmen succumb to tent talk and fail to keep an open mind. They don't make it because they don't know how or don't want to play the game. But many more DO play the game, do have the grades and other positive qualities, and would make great members. Yet, everyone's still sitting around counting beds?!!

I am just not persuaded that, simply because IU has done things this way forever, it should remain the case. IU markets itself as a school with tradition, and a big part of that tradition and package is Greek life. The school sells that to parents and incoming students. Does it mention in the brochure that about 50% of those girls who go through recruitment will likely never see a sorority bid? We do not promise or guarantee membership, but as part of NPC, we should all work towards greatest opportunity possible for PNMs. I think work needs to be done at IU to achieve that.

Previously at IU:
Sigma Kappa 1918-1994
Theta Phi Alpha 1920-1959
Delta Phi Epsilon 1946-1952
Sigma Sigma Sigma 1989-1994
Alpha Sigma Alpha 1990?-1994

Never at IU:
Alpha Sigma Tau
Phi Sigma Sigma

Does anyone know why three chapters left IU all in the same year? That's kind of bizarre.

I know with ASA and I'm guessing also Tri Sigma, we didn't have houses and couldn't compete with the other groups because of it. Admirable experiment (Greek life for those who don't want to have to live in a house) that didn't work, apparently. I know we had a dedicated consultant (she was a grad student there) and tried REALLY hard to keep that chapter going. But it appears that living in a house at IU is every bit as much a part of the Greek experience there as mixers, meetings, or ritual. If you didn't want to live in a house, you wouldn't rush to begin with.

Have no idea what happened with Sigma Kappa.

Since the houses at IU are mammoth, there's going to be a LOT of women living in, even if they did allow live-out members. I think this is the case at all of the big campuses of the Big 10, Big 12, SEC, etc. Yes, a new chapter would need to have a house on this type of campus, but I don't see why they need to have ALL their members living in.

Is there a member retention issue with requiring girls to live in that 3rd year?

No, IU has bed total so a group can only pledge up to the number of empty beds. Greek women, beyond freshman year, only live in the house.

I believe that is incorrect. Tradition on IU campus has been to pledge bed total, but chapters can pledge over that number...has been going on for at least 4 years that I am aware.

There is no set "quota" number as on other campuses...so I am not sure how release figures are handled.:confused:

I think you have to have some sort of target number for formal recruitment...

I think part of the live-in deal is that the Greek area isn't really near much else. I don't know what housing is like for upperclassmen at IU, but perhaps it is difficult to live outside of the house and feel connected?

I dunno, I remember a visit to IU had my pledge sisters saying they really wished our house was as nice as the one there, and I reminded them how we'd all be horrified to live in a chapter house our senior year.

This is one of those philosophical arguments where I could pick either side and fight for it. I lived in 3 years and wouldn't have it any other way, but I know a lot of women drop out if their choice is live in or deactivate.

But the part that I would find a little frustrating is the inability to take all the members you'd like, within some sort of competitive framework of course. But if Ladybug is right, then that's cool. It just might not be TRADITION to exceed bed total. But I could see getting around that (a senior annex of some sort in a different part of campus or town?) to accommodate more PNMs without having to build 19 airport hangers on campus. At least when I visited IU, the houses did seem very remote, but that was a long time ago. Maybe it doesn't seem like it's out in a corn field any more.

GEEK ALERT Sorry, one more question. If a campus doesn't function under quota (Nebraska being another one) do they use RFM? Both of these colleges have successful Greek systems, so whatever they do seems to work; I just don't understand the process.