i'm also curious...i read from a few girls on here that not only were they not hazed, they were showered with gifts and encouragement throughout their pledge process. i would like to ask, why are you so proud of being in your sorority then? what makes it so great that anyone can get in based on superficial characteristics (i've noticed that some have hot girls, some have fat girls, some have smart girls but basically they all resemble the same type of girl for each sorority). and when you have pledge classes of 50, please also tell me how much you can tell me about each person. i'm very curious what type of brotherhood/sisterhood you can have when you spend 8 weeks getting to know 50 people. what are you willing to do for them besides doing fun stuff with them?

In reference to your first paragraph, I don't know what you were trying to say at all.

As I've said, I don't know why it's your goal to have 40% of your pledge class fail. I will admit that I do know some fraternities that haze, but NONE of them WANT people to fail. I guess I just don't understand why you're excited to lose brothers.

You asked "Is it supposed to truly be based on brotherhood, philanthropy and GPA?" Roughly, yes. Every national website for every fraternity emphasizes brotherhood, friendship, academics, philanthropy and tradition. I doubt you'll find any that say, "If you can't do pushups, you can't join." Because that's not what these organizations were founded on. And if you think that only honor societies follow these principles and guidelines, then again, you don't understand the purpose of social Greek organizations.

Oh, and you asked... if Greek organizations are based on these ideas, why is the STEREOTYPE that they all party and drink all the time? Because it's a stereotype.. an idea that isn't true. Don't get me wrong, a lot of Greeks drink and party (as do a lot of non-Greek students), but organizations don't promote getting wasted and doing stupid things.

You gave an example of how as pledges, you knew all of the brothers names, ages, and where they were from. Ya know what's amazing... pushups didn't put that information into your head. Studying did.

The examples that you're giving aren't the greatest. The point is, an exam tests what you know, therefore allowing you to advance. But they test you in relation to what you'll be doing after the exam. If you're going into the military, you have to take physical exams to see if you can handle the physical challenges you'll face in order to possibly go to war. If you're joining a football team, you need to go through try-outs to test your passing, kicking, catching, running skills, etc. to see if you'd be able to play in the big game. But if you want to join a Greek organization, you need to do pushups and get yelled at, so that when you become a brother, you can attend meetings, plan social events, participate in philanthropies, and do well in school. Makes sense.

Anyway, I've made my point. I give up. I'm done. :)

This. Because of the way Greek life is at my school (very small, very unpopular, no formal rush, etc.), my chapter is lucky if over 50% of the people we extend bids to pledge, and if even 75% of the people who pledge initiate. But we would LOVE it if every single person who we extended a bid to ended up initiating.

Why? Because our selection process (IMO) works. Every person we ask is someone the membership feels would make a good addition to our community. Exclusivity comes in because there are tons of people we DON’T extend bids to, including plenty of people who have made it very clear they would join in a heartbeat.

Of course, I also don’t get the wanting to be in an exclusive club mentality. I mean, yes, Greek organizations are exclusive, and I think most of us would agree that they have to be, given their structures and goals. But to me, at least, the point is not exclusivity for the sake of exclusivity, but exclusivity for the sake of creating a siblinghood (or sisterhood or brotherhood) that works, and that strives to achieve the organization’s ideals. If the organization’s ideals have something to do with surviving under physical pressure, fine, but otherwise I don’t see the point.

Personally, I’m interested in being part of a group of awesome, hard working, caring, etc. people who try very hard to embody my GLO’s mission. And what makes me proud of my organization? Well, exactly what I just said. It’s the fact that all of my siblings are awesome, and that we all push ourselves everyday to be better people by trying to live up to the ideals laid out by our founders — ideals that have nothing to do with withstanding hazing.

And, BTW, doing what I just said has brought out a LOT of untapped potential in myself and many of my siblings.

A) Because the stereotype is wrong and B) because sure, some chapters at some schools fail to live up to the ideals of their organization. But just because those chapters fail doesn't make their ideals any less about brotherhood, philanthropy, academic excellence, etc.

Yes, that should be the core values for all fraternities.

The more I read this guys post, the more I think he's not really Greek.

Wowwwwww.....could it be that earning your letters come AFTER you cross?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm..*insert smiley with lightbulb over head here*......:rolleyes:

Like I said in an earlier thread....I'll take an active, community involved working MIP member over a letter rocking mofo ANYDAY!! :cool:

I can't believe people WANT to be hazed to feel they are accepted and appreciated.....truly sad.

Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't you set up a huge cage-like structure and put all the pledges in there and let them fight for their lives, kind of like Mad Max's Thunderdome. Then you'd only have the ones who were truly worthy of being your brothers come out alive.

You could charge admission to watch the "death matches" and it would greatly enhance your social budget! I'm sure the "hot sororities" would love to have mixers with the men who made it through!!

msl2008 is really a 40 year old prisoner with internet privileges.

he's been "hazed" eversince the other prisoners found out what he's there for.

Hmmmm . . . Could msl2008 really be . . .





wait for it . . .








Hoosier?

hmmmm...that would be interestingly disturbing or disturbingly interesting.

You are all beating your heads against the wall if you think you will convince this guy that his image of a badass fraternity that hazes 40% of its new new members to drop out or are kicked out is out of step with current reality. He just wants to haze and you will never convince him otherwise. He is the kind of guy that will tell all of us how mean his national and university is when his chapter is closed down and his chapter house stands empty.

haha...i found the last few posts quite interesting. first of all, you might not believe this but i'm actually one of the more rational ones. i rarely hazed people except to get a point across and most pledges thanked me after they crossed because they told me they understood the points i was making.

why don't you think i'm greek ksuviolet? is it b/c my organization hazes and you just can't accept the fact? sorry for actually having a process where i actually had to go thru some hardships. if i was showered with gifts and encouraged the whole way i would probably be saying the same thing as you are b/c you haven't seen the other side. remember that even though football training is preparing you for the game and military training is preparing you for war, would you question that the process is effective and makes people stronger mentally and physically? even if a glo isn't preparing you for anything in particular, it can also make you stronger whether you guys agree or not.

and for those of you who say earn your letters after you cross, i ask why you don't just give your letters out to everyone then? it's funny how you think my organization is messed up but we're actually proud of our letters. i see many fraternities let friends or gfs wear their letters all the time. great way of earning your letters huh? what a joke.

but i guess you guys are right. you probably won't change my mind b/c i haven't heard of any good ideas as alternatives to hazing. doesn't really matter to me though since i don't haze people anymore anyway. i was just looking for some ideas that i could give to my chapter but if all i'm going to get is an argument on why hazing is stupid and personal insults, then i guess i'm wasting my time.

but if you guys have any GOOD ideas, i'm still open to them. but if all you want to do is insult me, well a public forum is a pretty ridiculous and childish place to do that. you guys have really proven how much you guys respect your orgs huh?

Your analogies still suck.

So the only thing your organization is good for is making good pledges? I guess having good brothers is not a priority.

BTW, I've seen members of fraternities that have been hazed who still give their letters to their girlfriends. What's their excuse?

I'm going to laugh when your chapter gets closed for a hazing incident.

You keep avoiding my question about the hybrid program. Why do you need ideas if your way is already working?

Excluding you, everyone in this thread has shown distaste for hazing and has stated that the best way to show brotherhood and sisterhood is through service in our respective organizations. That is showing respect for our GLOs.

So yea, massive fail on your part.

i thought it was pretty obvious that i wanted ideas b/c i want to reform pledging a little bit. try and make it less hazing as much as possible while still making it challenging enough so it's still exclusive.

it is possible for my chapter to get closed due to hazing. however, it is about as likely as someone in college getting busted for smoking weed. the chances are just so low and the punishments so weak that this is why hazing still exists. obviously the punishments that are given aren't enough to deter students from hazing or else we wouln't be reading about hazing incidents all the time would we?

and i still don't understand how by doing community service you're showing brotherhood/sisterhood. is it becuz ur all there that you're showing unity by volunteering your time? i see clubs do that all the time. is that really what brotherhood is to you? volunteering to the community? so i guess you can say you love your fraternity brother b/c he served popcorn with you at a sport event huh? would you feel that way if you were on a battlefield with him?

now i might have a different sense of brotherhood here but i don't believe brothers are made by doing things that anyone can do. you take your fraternity brothers and i'll take mine and if we go to war we'll see whose gonna leave who behind huh? now i understand you guys hate talking about the military but i believe military builds true bonds b/c you have to trust people with your lives. would you trust someone who just had to put in his time with you? i don't think so.

Fraternities are not the military and they do not go to war. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

STOP USING THAT ANALOGY - IT DOES NOT WORK. Several people have pointed that out.

Don't you know, fraternities are trained to be navy seals.

that's one incident. so what would you say about best friends hooking up with bfs cuz we know that happens a lot. my whole point is it's hard to judge a person's personality regardless if you haze them or not. however, i just feel i guess safer knowing that he went thru a tough process that not everyone can go through. could he still not learn anything? of course. but at least he stuck it out and proved he had some toughness.

when the going gets tough, lots of people quit and get scared. i would want the people who can overcome this stuff and stick it out with me. i don't know, maybe i am comparing this too much to the military but i guess we could do a whole lot worse huh? at least by following the military we have a foundation with which to build and teach on and we don't alcohol haze or anything like that (only physical). but i guess it's too much to understand.

but honestly, you guys can't see anyway in which a pledging process based on basic training is good and would rather just do community service or study sessions etc? would you guys also say that your GLO brotherhood/sisterhood is stronger then the military brotherhood?

you are right, fraternities do not go to war (well at least not everyone though lots of people in my fraternity do actually). however, we are discussing what builds brotherhood/sisterhood here are we not? i am saying that doing a physical pledge process based on military training builds stronger ties then doing philanthropies and study sessions. i believe fraternity is based on the word brotherhood. even though they do not go to war, it's about building bonds. so please explain to me how your fraternity builds stronger bonds then the military. i think it's very relevant.

Why do you need to reform something that works for you already? If your mixed program is the best thing out there, you shouldn't need ideas.

Clearly you don't pay attention to the news if you think organizations don't get caught for hazing. And if fines and jail time aren't a deterrent for you, then you want to go to jail.

Like I said earlier, I had to go through some questionable activities so I've seen "the other side." That has not made me into a better brother. Living up to the ideals that my founders envisioned is what does that. Having casual interactions with my brothers has done it.

I never will have to go to war with my brothers, so again, your analogy sucks.

And LOL at you thinking serving popcorn is service.

What the hell does "hooking up" have to do with brotherhood?

Are you even associated with the military?

EXACTLY.

If you have been part of a Greek org and you think pledging is the most important part of it, you are missing the point of what your founders have started.

All you keep saying is:

Pledging should be like military training.

If you haven't been physically hazed, you have no sister/brotherhood.

You are not making any actual points.

And the fact that you don't seem to see the value in philanthropy and service as part of Greek life, leads me to seriously believe you are not Greek.

i'm not saying org don't get caught. but with all the different chapters and stuff out there, i'd say probably 1/1000 get caught. and then remember that they got all the hotshot attorneys and rich alumni and insurance who make sure it's nothin more than a slap on the wrist. last couple stories i read where people died people got maybe $10k fine and a year jail time and a year probation? for having someone die i don't consider that too bad.

and serving popcorn at sporting events is often done by organizations for fundraising. my whole point is that all you're doing is spending time doing something but most of that time you're not even really interacting with your organization's members cuz you're busy serving the community or fundraising.

1/1000? Can you back that up with any data? I don't know where you're getting your information from, but you're seriously mistaken.

Fundraising is not community service. My organization does actual service for the community. Those of us who value our organizations do real service. That does not mean that's ALL we do. There are 24 hours in a day. There's plenty of time to interact with other members.

I also don't think you're Greek. No one who is a college graduate and a GLO alum can be this dense.

I remember in HS reading All Quiet On The Western Front about this nice boy who voluntered for the German army in WWI and was subjected to brutal training which turned him into a pitiless killer and that was the reason he could survive in the trenches. But when he went into a real battle the officer who brutalized him turned out to be a coward

haha....this dense? lol...just because i believe in something different then you you're saying i can't be a college graduate and a greek? i don't understand how you come up with that.

but yes i am greek and yes i am a college graduate.

and if you think i'm dense about this, you should see my stances on politics and especially our governments response to the economy right now.

Sorry, I'm back. Just one more point (as I'm not going to further argue what I already have, because it obviously won't make a difference). This was your original post. Take note of the bolded parts.

You wanted to know:
a.) What non-hazing groups do for new member programs
b.) What the problem is with having pledges perform physical tasks, being yelled at, etc.
c.) Some thoughts as to why people think hazing is wrong.

So when people gave you opinions addressing these questions, somewhere along the line you turned your question into this:

First of all, you say your organization has a slim chance of getting caught. Is that because you do all of your secret stuff in the basement of the house? Oh, sorry.. did I ruin everything? :rolleyes: All it takes is for one pledge to be uncomfortable enough to call the school or your national organization and you'd be screwed.

But hey, if you don't mind paying $10,000 and serving a year in jail, keep it up.

And if you're not bonding during fundraisers and philanthropies, then clearly pledging/hazing did NOTHING for the closeness between you and your brothers. Unless you're hazed all throughout college, in which case, you MIGHT have an argument for your chapter being closer than others (but probably not).

don't worry about me...because i'm an alum, i don't haze anyone and thus can't be put in jail or pay a fine. i just wanted to try and see if i could change my way of thinking by listening to the people on this board. as of now, i do think that my hybrid program of some physical stuff and some philanthropies/study sessions etc is the best way to go. as for people telling on us, well we've survived this long...and by the time we go away lots of things will be different in america anyway with the way this country is going. we got way more problems then college kids hazing other college kids. let's get the real criminals out there.

Yes, talking in circles, continually making faulty assumptions, and not backing up your "arguments" makes you dense.

Having an opinion is encouraged. Asking questions and disregarding the answers makes you seem childish.

You're an alum and you don't haze anyone anymore. But you encourage the current active members to continue with the same activities. Are you going to be the one bailing them out and visiting them in jail? Because I doubt it.

You don't think a hybrid program of physical stuff and productive philanthropies/study sessions would be helpful? So only pushups and yelling for not knowing the founders names or the ages of all their pledge brothers is the best way to go? Yea, that sounds right. College isn't about academics and building relationships with the surrounding community anyway.

You've survived this long, and that's great. But just a few weeks ago a thread was started here in which a chapter that had been on a campus for nearly 100 years was caught for hazing. Everyone always thinks that it can't happen to them.

And if you think that deaths due to hazing is a small problem, then I would really like to know what you would consider a "big" problem.

He's only going to bail out the ones who can do 50 pushups.

The rest will be passed around the cell block.

Haha. That sounds about right.

And mls2008, since you think your chapter is invincible, here's a story of a few girls that I know personally:

A couple years ago, this one chapter had a new member class. One of the new members came back to her room to find that it was trashed. From what I understand, this happened because this girl was a little slower at learning some of the sorority information. It turned out the reason was because her dad was in the hospital for a few weeks, and his chances of living were about 50/50. Fortunately he made it, but this girl was an emotional wreck and kept it to herself, not wanting to burden the rest of the chapter. Well... she gets back to her room, it's completely turned upside down. There's a note saying it was the sorority. She breaks down. She calls her mom to talk to her about it. Without her knowing, her mom calls the national organization. It turns out the chapter was unaware this happened, and only two sisters were actually involved with this incident, which they owned up to. The national organization told the chapter that they either lose their charter, or they remove these two girls from the chapter and strip their letters. They obviously chose the latter.

All it takes is one phone call for something to happen. Some people aren't afraid to report hazing incidents, and I commend them for that.

astalumna, i don't understand your story. what does that have to do with pledging? you guys probably think i'm all heartless and stuff. trust me, it's not like all we do is yell at you and tell you to do pushups. that's just a means to an end. we also do philanthropies, study sessions, have chill nights or whatnot with the pledges to build brotherhood too. we just combine the two for a vigorous process. and i thought i mentioned multiple times that we ARE doing a hybrid program. i was just trying to figure out how people are totally against that and go to strict non hazing besides the fact that it's against the law. if no one dies and no one is beaten and harmed, i don't see why it's so dangerous. would we be having this conversation if no one died or was harmed besides having sore muscles?

Would that it were so.

Not sure how disagreeing with you proves that those who disagree don't respect their own orgs. No logic there at all.

But, being proud of your letters, are you willing to tell us what fraternity you belong to?

(And I am noticing how you refer to "crossing.")

wow 1 out of 1000 thats pretty good. Funny cuz at my school there has been numerous issues with hazing and one time or another every chapter has experienced a problem with hazing. And im glad to say now my chapter does not haze in any possible way what so ever. Id say theres maybe 1 org who hasnt had a hazing problem at one time or another on my campus and theyre a colony. So im sure its a little more common than 1/1000. Its time to progress and not stay lost in the past.