Kstar did say that it was her personal opinion that lower than a 3.85 is risky. Further, she is correct that Panhellenic only distributes the unweighted GPAs of PNMs to the chapters.

Although I have only advised at OU (I attended graduate school there), Kstar’s representation of the high school grade point averages is fairly accurate. I know simply from seeing the unweighted GPAs and the final bid lists of some chapters that there are many pledge classes in which you can count the number of “Bs” received by the entire pledge class on your hands. However, I feel that this is more representative of the caliber of PNMs (and OU students in general) than it is an indication that a PNM cannot receive a bid with less than a 4.0. It’s been a few years but I seem to remember that well over half of the PNMs had 4.0 GPAs. In my experience, I would not be concerned about going through recruitment at OU with a 3.8 GPA.

As has been discussed, OU is definitely a campus that requires recommendations and preparation.

That's what I was thinking when Kstar said that about her pledge class. It's one thing for 4.0s to be common in PNMs and in a pledge class, but it's another if 3.8s aren't good enough to get a bid because you're a "grade risk."

As I said earlier if 4.0s are that common, then they are pretty meaningless. It would put you in the top half of PNMs?

But it does reveal something about high school grade inflation.

This is what I was thinking. I went to an incredibly competitive high school, but when I say "competitive" I guess I mean that the academics should be extremely rigorous and students must "compete" against themselves and the standards in order to achieve a 4.0. When half the school gets a 4.0, I'd say the school isn't doing a very good job at challenging its students. If it's truly as excellent a school as you say, any college its students apply to will know it, and they will take that into consideration when judging your son/daughter; I know my college knew about the schools in my district, even though I'm up in Washington and my school was in California.

And by the way, universities do not use weighted GPAs in admissions; they look at the AP and advanced classes a student has taken, but they weigh them just as other classes in terms of GPA. As others have said, not every high school weights GPAs or has AP classes. Colleges still see 4.0s as being the top of the ladder.

And to the person who said that they were considering whether to send their child to a competitive school or a place where they will have an easy time skating past their peers, I hope anyone in your situation chooses the former. THAT is the best way to prepare him/her for college and the workplace, and it would be a shame to stunt their learning just so they can get into a particular college. I wasn't even in the top 25% of my graduating class, but I know I was much better prepared for college thanks to my classmates that forced me to work my tail off.

To all you familiar with Houston - does anyone want to argue the top 10% at North Forest is in any way comparable to the top 10% at Bellaire? I'd go so far as saying the top HALF at some schools could academically kick the butts of the top10% at some others. I feel sorry for the 11th percentile students in the highly competitive schools. I have known so many HIGHLY qualified students who couldn't get into UT or A&M.

Also, I am a big supporter of those Texas schools which are not the so-called top tier - which is weighted pretty heavily by the graduate programs (research institutions). This does not necessarily translate into a better undergraduate experience. It all comes down to the particular program - some non "top-tier" schools have BETTER undergraduate programs than UT or A&M. :eek:

But being well-qualified is sort of its own regard as long as you can get into a decent school someplace. So while the middle or even the bottom at some schools are certainly better prepared academically than the top kids at another, it's not the complete academic kiss of death to be in the 11th percentile at a really great school.

If college admission is some sort of PC spoils system, and it seems to be used this way, at least the 10% systems is objective and clear. When diversity is weigh more ambiguously with other factors, kids are at the complete mercy of admissions officials. In Texas, you've at least got a pretty clear picture of what your chances are based on your class rank.

It's true - you'll know you are totally screwed based on your class rank, and not on something like whether or not you are the more qualified!

But diversity standards mean no one ever objectively knows who is more qualified. Your qualifications may be that you have a 4.0 and a 1600 but you're white and suburban with college educated parents. My qualification may be that I have a 3.5 and a 1300 and play the oboe and am part Navajo (not really) and will be the first in my family to go to college. Valuing diversity may mean we're not playing simply by the grades and test score rules.

I'm not sure I agree with this thinking either, but there's something to be said for a system that at the very least says, if you are in the top 10% we're going to let you go where you want to, as opposed to a system that says, like most of the top ranked highly selective private schools seem to, apply: we'll decide if you are good enough. Attempt to be perfect in every area and we'll decide whether you fit in this year's class or not.

But one problem that has reared its ugly head is that you are not doing the top 10% any favours if you let them go and they are NOT prepared. Then they can't cope - and end up flunking out. Their professors don't know - and don't care - from whence they graduated. As admitted freshmen, they have to be able to pull their weight. I know that some schools have had a problem with sending their top 10% off, and then they don't do well. Those students would be MUCH better served going to a community college or a smaller college where they can get up to speed and get the kind of personalized attention they cannot get at UT or A&M. It's sink or swim - and if they aren't prepared, no matter how well-intentioned their admission was, you risk sinking the very students you most want to enable to succeed.

eta - the program has been in place for some time - does anyone know of any other states that have adopted it?

[quote=PeppyGPhiB;1748896]And by the way, universities do not use weighted GPAs in admissions; they look at the AP and advanced classes a student has taken, but they weigh them just as other classes in terms of GPA.quote]


Actually, the admissions counselors that we met with over the summer at both Auburn & U of Alabama told us that they DO use the weighted average if your high school reports it that way.

Ole Miss counselor said they use unweighted for admissions, but weighted for scholarships, as did LSU's counselor.

I think this is true in any admission system.

I don't know of any other states that adopted the 10% deal, but I think most are just trying to do their own little diversity dance and weren't under the same legal pressure.

I wonder how much having the idea out there that UT and A&M are so hard to get into sort of creates the idea that if you are top 10% you HAVE to go there. Anybody know how many of the top 10% of the graduating classes at really good high schools used to choose UT or A&M?

Well, the idea should be to reduce the number who are not prepared - to have admissions standards that do all they can to insure that those who are admitted are indeed prepared. The top 10% system doesn't even pretend to do that.

eta - the top 10% system seems to be a variation of throw it on the wall and see what sticks. I don't think it serves the students' best interests, and I don't think it is in the best interest of the university.

[QUOTE=UHDEEGEE;1748925]Auburn uses it for scholarships too. Some of the schools around me started giving weighted averages because too many of their kids were missing out because their grading system didn't allow for higher than a 4.0.

I may be wrong, but I think Peppy's point was also largely that the strength of your individual high school might matter a whole lot more than a really high weighted GPA.

You may be right, but I think schools have sort of given up trying to tell who is most objectively qualified, and since way more kids than they could possibly admit probably meet whatever predictive standard they use to determine who might flunk out, they just need a system to reduce the total number.

I understand what you are saying though. It seems that colleges could make much better decisions about the preparation and qualification of the students they accept.

I may have mentioned this before since it's one of my pet peeves. Every so often in Georgia the colleges, especially the less selective ones, want to give the high schools grief about the number of kids with who need remedial classes. What is so irritating about it is that anyone with even a passing familiarity with high schools in Georgia could tell you that a B average from certain schools means absolutely nothing in terms of academic preparation. Because we have the HOPE grant which gives a full tuition scholarship to any kid who graduates from a Georgia public high school with a B average, as long as the kid maintains the B average in college, at some high schools a B is almost the default grade. However, there's no way that kids at some of those schools are really doing B level college preparatory work. So, from a high school perspective, you just want to respond to the complaining about the lack of preparation with, "yeah, you admitted that kid with the data about how other kids from that high school fared in your program; how can you possibly try to blame the high schools generally for your failure to make tough admissions decisions?"

ETA: sorry for the craziness of some of my sentences. I'm kind of tired. I'll look at it tomorrow and see what I can do.

Speaking as an instructor at UT, I don't really see any evidence that students admitted under the top 10% rule are struggling at UT.

Do you teach many freshman classes? If not, I would guess that they are gone before they reach you. How many of your students drop per semester? It may be those who feel overwhelmed simply drop before you have much interaction with them. Or all of your students come to school totally prepared - which is great.

My comment was based on observations from friends (teachers) at other high schools, several students I know, and a series of articles. I know that when we tracked students who attended the community college at which I sometimes teach then transferred we discovered that they had higher g.p.a.s than those who had gone straight to a 4 year school. I'd say we pull from a mix of schools - but the majority are not high-performing schools.

I do think that someone should do an actual review of the students from a variety of schools to see how many of those who go to UT and A&M actually graduate. We track graduation rates for athletes - if we are going to discuss the 10% it would be nice to have statistics to help inform the discussion.

Ladybugmom-

I read your post and as a mom and a Recruitment Advisor I hope I can offer some insight. Not being a legacy should not hurt your daughter at all. In fact, at the school I advise at it is almost a strike against you! The girls feel legacy's have an attitude of "I'm in no matter what" The first thing we look for and cut for are grades so if you daughter has good grades that is a bonus. I will also tell you that if your daughter is shy or reserved it will make it a little more difficult. The girls that do really well during recruitment and have perfect recruitments tend to be the girls who are beautiful, envolved, good grades and light up a room when they walk in the door. Of course it doesn't hurt that they wear all the right things (cute, current stuff) say all the right things (act very interested and sincere and not look around, maintain good eye contact) and are generally warm and friendly. I could write a book after 15 years of doing this on the right way to look and act in a recruitment party. You should hear and see the comments that I hear on PNM's:) Tell you daughter to keep an open mind and not to listen to the rumors on what house are good and bad ect. Not all you hear is true. Good luck. She will have a lot of fun.

I have taught freshmen classes about half the time. Some of my friends have taught almost all freshmen classes. My boyfriend taught the intro writing course last year, which is essentially a remedial course, although the department says it isn't - but most students from prestigious high schools will be able to get out of this course, leaving some of the weaker admitted students plus nontraditional adult students and international students as the majority in these sections. Obviously this isn't statistical (and I'm not sure how easily we could really measure this - we could track students admitted under the top 10% rule, but that's almost everybody from Texas. And I doubt UT would track "students admitted by the top 10% rule from sh*tty high schools" or whatever rubric we'd need to actually figure it out.)

Like I said, the kids I get who are flunking out often seem to be A) Greek and drinking too much B) from the major cities, just like everybody else C) really homesick/having emotional/family problems and not going to class. I did have ONE student admitted under the top 10% rule, ONCE, who I felt maybe should not have been admitted to UT. She admitted that she was struggling a lot but she worked really really really really really hard with me and came to office hours every week to improve. Unlike my entitled kids from Dallas and Austin who slack off and then protest their grades at the end of the term and tell me their dads are lawyers, in ominous tones.

In my boyfriend's experience teaching freshmen writing, I should add, the adult students (whose HS credits have "expired" or are not applicable or whatever) usually do the best in the intro writing classes, followed by kids from rural high schools. The kids who usually fail are girls from Dallas/Fort Worth who come into his office hours and cry because they've never really been forced to do their own work before and skated by as student council president or head cheerleader or whatever. And the guys who go Greek. The international students try really hard but often are still working to overcome the language barrier, and end up somewhere in the middle.

I truly, honestly, wish I was exaggerating but I'm not. I think the rich kids screw up more often than the rural kids or inner city kids because the latter two groups are trying to prove themselves and improve their stations in life.

That said, I honestly don't find UT's undergrad courses to be particularly rigorous. In the freshmen courses especially, the difficulty is nonexistent (well, I do think intro writing is harder than American history intro), particularly compared to my freshmen courses at W&L, where I was probably assigned 3-4 times the amount of work assigned to my students. If you're really struggling in a freshmen course at UT, you're just not trying at all. I honestly feel that anyone who graduates in the top 10% could handle it if they tried (and I went to a small, crappy, rural high school myself, where I was valedictorian, and wasn't too impressed by all of the kids in the top 10%, honestly). I really think that most students' struggles - ESPECIALLY with intro courses - is due to emotional/personal problems or partying way too much. At W&L I didn't feel that way. I felt some students couldn't handle even intro courses because there was so much difficulty. I don't think UT students have much excuse.

Disclaimer: not that I think UT is a bad school. It's an awesome school and probably a jillion times more rigorous than most state schools. But it doesn't compare to someplace like W&L.

FWIW - my experiences are similar to yours, bg. The kids from Houston ISD have the least amount of preparation - the ones from the suburbs do much better, although none of them really have what I would consider a sufficient background in writing. I LOVE a returning student - one who has been in the "real world" and doesn't want to waste his/her time or mine.

One of the main ingredients for success is college is - attendance. My students don't believe me when I tell them that, but it holds true. It's the chicken and the egg, though - do you do better in a class because you always attend, or do you always attend because you are the type of student who makes the effort necessary to succeed? At any rate, I'm very proud of the fact that my daughter gypsyboots LISTENED to her mother, and the only class she missed this semester is when she had a conflict betweeen a freshman required seminar and her philosophy dialogue. She cleared it with the seminar professor, and attended her philosophy dialogue.

School work THEN play = happiness :)
Play THEN schoolwork = misery. :(

We were in danger of being on topic there for a moment!

Thanks so much for the information! I think my daughter will do just fine, as she will be more than prepared. We have already gotten at least 2 recs from each house lined up and we will go on major shopping sprees this summer. As far as writing a book, I wish there was one out there to help those going through recruitment to know what to expect. I have not directed my daughter to this site because frankly, some of the threads on here would scare her in to not going throug recruitment at all....:eek: I want her to go in prepared but with an open mind. She really doesn't have any pre-conceived ideas about any of the house so far.
As far as the top 10% rule, I had no idea my thread would spark such discussion:). My daughter does go to an affluent, highly competitve high school. I am certain that she is just as prepared for UT or A&M as many of the top 10% in more inner city or rural high schools. I do not know what the answer is, however in our case, it is disappointing to know that she can't get into UT (her first choice) simply because there is no room for her. Thanks so much for the lively discussion!:)

I totally agree! I am so glad that my daughters did not know about this site until after recruitment. One of them ( they are twins) did not want to go through recruitment, but the other did. They preffed 2 other different houses, but pledged together. Now, at their pref, the one who was hesitant about rushing speaks about her decision and how much it has enriched her life.
After choosing clothes, and getting manis and pedi, the only advice I gave them was to be very positive, polite, and NEVER say a negative about any group or person. Which is pretty much good advice for life.

Ladybugmom-

Are you in Texas? Did she attend any of the summer camps there? My daughter went to Camp Mystic and loads of the counselors were greek. They were always asking her where she got her AXO t-shirts from. Of course, I have a new supply every year because of being around during recruitment. If she has the camp ties that may help her to be on common ground. Just a thought.

Ladybugmom-
If OU is anything like our University here we have a tough time verifing grades...period! It has something to do with privacy laws. Also, we get unweighted GPA's when we get them. I would make sure your daughter has a copy of her transcripts with her just in case and send them with her recs. I have seen more than one PNM dropped from every house because the grades are in the system incorrectly.

Great advice! Thanks! As far as your earlier question, yes we are in Texas but my daughter did not attend any camps except cheer camp...every summer since 6th grade:). Between family vacations and cheer, she didn't have time for any other camps...

This is generally not a problem at OU. A transcript is sent to Panhellenic and the grades are verified and entered into ICS. A PNM will not be fully registered for recruitment until her transcript has been received and verified by Panhellenic.

I just have to do a quick shout out for the guys who are Greek at UT. ;)

Every one I know, or know of, is doing extremely well - the cumulative GPA for my son's pledge class was around 3.4, with many pulling 4.0's. Most of the guys that my son hangs with in his fraternity are in the business school, and are either in business honors or are applying/accepted into the MPA program - so no dummies there.

I'm not arguing that going Greek won't be a detriment to some, but it isn't always the case. Kids who know how to manage their time and take care of business will be fine, those who don't will struggle (whether they are Greek or not).

Work hard/Party hard is the tried and true method for success!

I don't mean to diss all UT Greeks. I have had some outstanding Greek students and plenty who fell in the middle. I've also had some who were total screwups. The major thing that annoys me about Greeks who are screwups in my class is that they seem to be more likely to think that pulling connections/threatening me with Mommy and Daddy's wrath is going to make me magically change my grade.

I also think the difficulty of being a business major is way overrated, but that's an entirely different conversation I guess. :)

I would enjoy you as a mom.

You know, what I've heard is that it is ridiculously hard to get into the business school, have to be top 3% or so, but that once you're in, the classes are graded with generous curves ;). Gotta Love It!

But, I totally get your point about the Mommy/Daddy threatening thing. That would certainly turn me off in no uncertain terms!!


Thanks :)

I didn't go to Camp Mystic myself but some of my best friends have been counselors there for a few summers. :)

Sorry, just got excited to see a little something familiar.

em, I also know tons of counselors at Mystic! I LOVE HUNT, TEXAS!!!

When I was growing up, my family owned a house on Old River Road on the way to Mystic, and I spent many summers there. I wish we still had it!!

My boys all went to La Junta, they were lifers, attending from 6 to CIT. My youngest was a junior counselor last year, but is taking next summer off. He hopes he can go back and be a counselor after he graduates next year.

My boy went to Camp Stewart. Actually made Chief his last year. He started at age 9 as did Madison. We LOVE Hunt! I'm hoping that Parker will go and be a counselor when he is a Sophmore in college. That is the youngest they take them.

I know in Florida, which has had a similar scholarship program for a long time, it's not just "get a 3.0, and you're golden." There's a corresponding SAT/ACT score, and there is a list of schools (based on performance) that are not qualified to take students into the scholarship program.

You know what? No one's ever surprised when a kid can't hack it in college and has to come home--unless there's an unforseen problem like homesickness or an illness. My HS teachers said that they could predict who was going to be home after a year.

in addition, they have to contribute a certain number of volunteer hours to charity.

That's great. I did an IB program in high school, so the 200 CAS hours we had to fulfill were my top priority. I went to HS 10 years ago, and so they've probably changed the community service requirements. I don't think they had them when I was in school. Maybe they did, but since I knew I wasn't going to a Florida public school, it didn't matter.

If you have good preparation in H.S., you're golden. I went to an academically demanding public H.S., a second-tier public university, and I sailed through. Grad school was likewise no problem. IMO, it often comes down to writing, the ability to research information, and work ethic.

I was stunned when colleagues at work told me that their professors did not require papers in their undergraduate courses. :confused: I had to write at least one or two papers for every single undergraduate course. In grad school, I had to produce 60 pages on ten different topics (with footnotes!) within the first month.

IMO, where you go (either H.S. or college) does make a difference.

I agree completely! I remember how scared I was to start college after hearing the standard "Look to your right and look to your left. Two of you won't be here next year." during orientation.

Yes, the work in college took effort, but it wasn't as overwhelming as I expected, even courses in the Honors College. I think it had a lot to do with how hard I was pushed by some really great teachers in high school. I also think having the ability to write well was key. I always chose the college class that had a final paper instead of a final exam if I had the choice. Writing a paper felt to me like you had total control over your grade. An exam - not so much. But writing a final paper? All the requirements are there for you to read and you can ask for help and guidance as you do it. How much easier can it be?

And don't even get me started on people who don't go to class. If all you do is show up and do the readings, you should be able to pull a 3.0 out of most classes. :)

this is what I needed to hear!
 

Thank you, Tri Delta, Sallie! Your post was exactly what I needed to hear. I have been procrastinating,putting off completing my thesis proposal. I am in a Master's program, majoring in English, via distance learning. My grades have been great, and I am a strong writer. I've just had a block, you might say, about this proposal. Your common sense comments have removed my block, and I shall return to work!:p

EEEK!!! Back when I was in college (in the early 80's), I would drop a course if I found out the final was a paper! I would rather have my entire grade depend on 1 test than a paper. But, there was no scantron (that's how old I am!!), very little multiple choice, so most tests were blue book essay type.

Somehow I made it through, and am now a pretty decent writer. I had no confidence in my ability to formulate a paper.