i was told my by OBGYN that depending on which IUD you chose, it only prevents implantation by irritating the uterus, or causing damage to the egg or sperm. ive never read anywhere (and trust me i did a LOT of research before i got mines!) about it scraping anything off...

True- that is one reason why IUDs are a no-no. Some NFP practioners will also tell you that Birth Control Pills can cause a failure to implant- so you do have fertilization but not implantation. And if you believe that life begins at conception- is that at fertilization, implantation or both?

And the prohibition behind artificial insemination goes back to the "spilled seed" argument. In order to get the sperm, the sperm donor would usually need to masterbate. That is a no-no per Roman Catholic Church teaching. So AI is (artificial insemination as apposed to alumni initiation) wrong because of the means used to gather the sperm. The only acceptable way to have AI is if the sperm is gathered as I outlined above, and I believe it can only come from the husband.

IVF is always a no-no since fertilization occurs outside the womb. it also brings up the issue of what to do with the fertilized but unused eggs. (which could be one reason there has never been a statement on embryo adoption).

This is what I found on Wikipedia, so YMMV:

"The presence of a device in the uterus prompts the release of leukocytes and prostaglandins by the endometrium. These substances are hostile to both sperm and eggs; the presence of copper increases this spermicidal effect.[40][41] The current medical consensus is that spermicidal and ovicidal mechanisms are the only way in which IUDs work.[35]"

Gianna is the exception. Removal of uterus when there is uterine cancer is allowed, even if the baby is not viable and does not make it. But then, removing the baby to save the mother's life is allowed if the intent is to save both, even if the baby is not viable.

My ideas about abortion may not be as strict as those of the church, but not as lax as Obama's either.

Regarding as to when life begins... I do not think fertilization of the egg (aka conception) is a good point. If all fertilized eggs were to implant successfully, the world's population would be much higher than what it is now. Implantation would be a better point- but I have known people who had miscarriages because while zygote implanted, the cells did not differentiate and at one point they just stopped multiplying and the uterus expelled the mass of identical cells. Heartbeat definitely shows life is present, though.

Although this might be true a lot of the time, you'd be surprised how many children are born even though the mother has/had an IUD.

I know at least 5 people who were "IUD babies" and they are all perfectly healthy.

So then what is the Catholic definition of Grace?

I was a Catholic for 12 years, and when we left the church I really wanted to go back, UNTIL I found old Catechism booklets I had and read that (as a Catholic) i'm suppose to believe that Jesus Christ came down, not to die on the cross & save us from eternal damnation, but to build & found the Catholic Church. There is your "Catholic teachings" for ya.

But the whole "scraping" thing is a myth, it seems. Just like how a lot of people think the Pill works by making your body think it's pregnant.

All BC has a possibility of failure, even with perfect use.

So condom use = ok to get pregnant. But condom use =/= ok to not get pregnant.

I am Catholic. My entire family is Catholic. But it's 2008. Having stringent rules against sex education, birth control AND abortion are conflicting, confusing and out of touch with people's reality. It's 2008.

But I agree with whoever said you just need to go find another church. We "parish-shopped". Seriously. There's a church not a 1/4-mile from us that is what I think of as "old-line" Catholic church. Did not enjoy it there. At all. We found another parish that is much ... trying to think of the word ... "friendlier"? I remember when I walked in and saw a plaque that said "all are welcome here" and there was a huge mural of a smiling Jesus I thought, "hm, now this isn't what I'm used to!" It's a great parish, it's a comfortable parish, our pastor (who happens to be African American) is one of the most laid-back, personable priests I have EVER known and he's never once given us an ultimatum about being Catholic OR voting the way he (or the Church) might think is "right". He's just glad to see us every week. :)

The two aren't mutually exclusive. If, as Roman Catholics do, you believe that the Church is the way to salvation, then in fact Jesus came down to found the Roman Catholic Church TO save you from eternal damnation. Again, I'm not RC, but that's my understanding.

I don't ever remember learning it so i'm not exactly sure if that is what they are implying, but here is what it says (verbatim):

"Why did Jesus come down to earth?

God sent Jesus to earth so that he could found the Catholic Church"


I've also always wondered if other Catholics (in an area that is not predominantly Hispanic) have such an "admiration" to the Virgin Mary that the Hispanic (mainly Mexican) Catholics do.

We are not going to agree. You want to err on the side of "a fetus / unborn baby is alive from the moment of conception" - that is your right. I choose to err on the side of "abortion of a non-viable fetus is not 'murder'" - that is my right.

The Church also takes a hard line against any form of birth control other than abstinence or natural family planning. Even those forms of birth control that are intended to prevent fertilization from taking place at all, are considered sinful and wrong. That means no tubal ligation, no vasectomy, no diaphragm, not even a condom. Perhaps the Church would like to outlaw condom sales?

But I digress. The issue here is that a priest has declared (without any backing from higher-ups in the Church hierarchy, as far as I am aware) that those of his parishioners who voted for Obama should not receive communion unless and until they do penance for their vote.

The Catholic Church's pro-life stance (as it was taught to me in Catholic school) is that life begins at conception and ends when the body naturally expires as a result of illness or injury. Killing a person before they would naturally die, therefore, is murder - a sin. Execution of criminals would thus fall under the category of murder. McCain is in favor of the death penalty. So he's not in line with the Church's pro-life stance either. So isn't it just as "wrong" and "sinful" to support McCain as it is to support Obama?

When we first moved to northern Florida, one of the first things my mother noticed about the church we joined was that "here they don't sing to the Virgin. Everything is 'Lord this' and 'Lord that'". The devotion, while present, is nowhere near as intense.

According to dicionary.com, one of the definitions of catholic is so the catechism may be referring to the ancient undivided church as opposed to the Roman Catholic church. I know in our hymnals (LCMS Lutheran) there's a footnote in the Apostle's Creed where it states the word Christian in one spot used to be catholic. I believe other denominations still use the term catholic when they recite the creed.

Or maybe Roman Catholics are really that self-centered. ;)

Even if they are referring to the "undivided church," I'm pretty sure that Jesus didn't come to earth to form a church. I think Jesus was more concerned about people's salvation than "hey let me create a church and then name the followers after myself"

I agree with your last point thought! lol

United Methodists say "I believe in the holy Catholic Church," then there's a footnote that says "Universal."

I was wondering about the death penalty thing. If they can't vote for Obama because he's pro-choice, and they can't vote for McCain because he's pro-capital punishment... who are they supposed to vote for? Was there any candidate at any time that was against both?

Again, this shows a misunderstanding of Catholicism. On any Sunday many parishioners do not take the Eucharist because ANY unrepented mortal sin violates the state of grace necessary to receive it. Not just sins involving voting for pro-abortion politicians. No one is really being singled out. The Church is not about politics - bad or good. It is not a democracy. They do not take a poll before taking a stand, and on this issue the Church has resolutely stated its position. It has nothing to do with one parishioner being more or less holy than another.

The talk in this thread about the Church's position on various issues is somewhat disconcerting also. Things can't be taken out of context like that if they are to make complete sense. An understanding of the full teachings of the Church is necessary to truly understand a lot of these controversial topics.

My point is, if any of you wants to take issue with the Church's views, knock yourselves out and join a different church. But, bashing a religion that you do not understand is unfair.

I would think in the churches that use the creed probably have the word catholic without a capital C - since that word is just an adjective meaning universal if not capitalized.

As to your other point - this is a constant source of discussion among many Catholics. There is no "Catholic party" with a candidate to vote for, and there never seems to be a candidate with a "perfect" Catholic platform. Typically the Bishops release a voter guide which deals with formulating a Catholic conscience in voting. They do not promote specific candidates or political parties. Part of the Catholic conscience idea involves reminders on Church teachings involving many things - social justice, war, death penalty, stem cell, and yes, abortion.

I think it is something of a fallacy that the Church is completely anti-death penalty. It isn't. Of course the Church's teachings on life certainly lean WAY to the side of no death penalty, but it isn't as absolute as abortion.

Back to the point though, the voter guides that I have read in my lifetime have addressed a necessary "evil" of choosing between imperfect candidates, because we have a duty to be voting citizens. While no candidate has been ideal, there is always one or more who is more acceptable to practicing Catholics than another.

i apologize if that came out wrong, like i said, i am not Catholic and dont think i know any (if they are, they havent mentioned it...) the idea i got from the article gave me the impression that the vote for Obama wasnt included in a list of things you couldnt take communion for. i stand corrected!

that belief of not taking it if you havent completed full repentance/forgiveness isnt just a Catholic thing either. i believe Jehovahs Witnesses do that as well...at least thats what my grandmother told me.

It's probably written "catholic" with a small "c". I was always told there's a difference between "small c" catholic (e.g., the Episcopalian/Anglican church) and "large c" Catholic. The Roman Catholics have basically co-opted the term "catholic" and teaches that it is the "one true" Church to its followers.


ETA: irishpipes beat me to it! :)

I'm not sure if many churches are this strict anymore, but I remember growing up as a kid, we lived by the "no food for 1 hour" before Mass. So you either got up early and ate breakfast in time for there to be at least an hour between when you ate and Mass, or you waited until after. When we'd complain, my Mom would remind us how in her day they couldn't even have a drink of water before they went to Mass (big, old church in downtown Philly, Mass was in Latin), so they'd brush their teeth but couldn't even take a sip of water while they were doing it. AND, if they forgot to wear a hat, they would put a tissue over their head because their head couldn't be uncovered. Hard core!

ETA: And so my point is, there would be people that wouldn't go up for communion, but for all you know it was because they'd just had a big family breakfast at Bob's Big Boy or back in Mom's day, it could have meant someone forgot and had a drink of water or cup of coffee before they left for Mass

I fast from midnight before Divine Liturgy and I cover as well. (I'm Orthodox.) We stand for the majority of the service and actually have a little snack together afterwards every Sunday because we're all about to fall out. It's basically a twelve hour fast each Sunday. But, in reality, I find that it focuses me a lot more on what's happening. The same goes for fasting from meat on Wednesdays and Fridays. It's recentering.

One reason I make sure to specify the ROMAN Catholic church when discussing it is because as an Anglican I state that I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church every Sunday. My denomination can properly be described as Anglo-Catholic, so there you go. Given the influence of the Roman Catholic church throughout the history of Christianity I am surprised more Christians aren't more educated about it. I've met nominal Roman Catholics who weren't as conversant with their church doctrine as I was. :rolleyes:

Also, many Christians believe the church is not an institution as much as it is the body of Christ here on earth. The church is the people, not the building.

eta - I was reminded of the scene in "Angela's Ashes" when Frank throws up after his first communion, and there is a debate as to how to clean it up. With holy water??!!

Probably a very American phenomenon.

Oh, I've known quite a few Brits in the same boat. For that matter, I've known Methodists who have no idea of the role of the Anglican church in their formation. And Presbyterians who would not hire any but Presbys for their classical academy - which means they would not hire Dorothy Sayers or C.S. Lewis, two important (and Anglican!) figures in the formation of classical education as we know it today. I will admit that I'm lucky - my husband has a master's in divinity from Yale, so any questions I have regarding various denominations' beliefs are easily answered. :) I also find it fascinating to read about other denominations. I recently went to a Greek Orthodox funeral, which was interesting.

eta - back on topic. Have there been any reports as to the parishoners' reactions to the letter from the priest? Or from his bishop?

No, but MY DEFINITION OF GRACE is a key part in the formation of MY OPINION which I'm perfectly within right to state on a public forum.

I understand perfectly well the difference between the "Catholic" definition of grace and my own. I went to a Catholic high school and thus spent a year intensely studying the the basics of the faith as per graduation requirement. My post indicates that grace as illustrated by the actual teachings and stories of Christ should not be revised by anyone except for the One from whom it is comes. Therefore, the Church twisting and limiting such a thing by conditions other than those set forth by the Bible and calling it "grace" is misleading and unfair. This discussion is not based on whoever knows more about Catholicism and not only those baptized into it may have an opinion about it. And let's face it, this entire thread is (unless citations are provided) little more than 7 pages worth of people's opinions.

ETA: Irish, if I sound like I'm snapping at you (and in a mild way I might be) it's partially because I'm having a horrible week and partially because your post toward me came off as snotty on my end. I know it's not your fault how I read your words, but I'm letting you know that, as more and more people are seeming to pass judgement on the faith, your posts are looking frustrated and defensive. At least from where I'm sitting. I'm not purposely trying to offend you or what you believe in.
IDK, my bff Huckabee?:p ;)

Snap all you want. None of this is new territory. Catholics have been bashed for ages, and will continue to be as long as they uphold their strong positions. If I sound defensive, it is because I am attepting to defend the Catholic faith. Defending requires defensiveness, no?

As for the grace topic, I take no issue that you have your opinion! I haven't said otherwise, but to hold a Roman Catholic priest to your definition when he is speaking to parishioners who are supposed to share his definition is where I take issue. Does that make sense? It isn't as if that priest was telling non-Catholics what they have to believe. If he were, I would completely understand if you would take offense. That isn't what happened, though.

I think it is interesting that you think I sound frustrated and defensive out of all the posters in this thread. I haven't called names like others have or lost my temper. I am merely addressing fallacies. Don't get me wrong, it is frustrating to have people of other faiths, or those who have chosen to leave the Catholic faith, bash it. But, I haven't said a word ridiculing or judging their faiths, as some have mine. Each person has a choice in their religion. I respect that, but some don't return that respect. So I wonder why you are telling me that I am the one coming off bad here. But like I said, snap all you want. The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom should I fear?

Whatever your personal opinion, the point of this thread is to discuss a Roman Catholic priest's actions. An understanding of Roman Catholic doctrine would be necessary to make an educated judgment about the validity of the priest's actions. Any other denomination's beliefs are irrelevant to the discussion - and christiangirl, despite the year's intense high school study, you betray a lack of comprehension of the biblical foundation and historical evolution of Roman Catholic tenets. You don't have to be Roman Catholic (at least I hope not, or I'm in trouble!) to comment, but attacking Roman Catholicism with the vehemence you do comes off as defensive. And dare I say - unchristian? What happened to they will know that we are Christians by our love?

eta - irishpipes, I think we posted at the same time!

Nittanyalum and Irishpipes you guys are right, it is catholic with a small c. I'm just so used to writing Catholic meaning the Catholic Church that that one slipped out.

I was actually talking to my dad about this. I learned some interesting things. I thought he "left" the Roman Catholic Church, turns out, he just stopped going because he liked going to church with my mom and us kids. Apparently my mom and dad agreed that us kids would be raised Methodist for unknown reasons when my brother was born. He actually said today that he was thinking about going back. He's still super active in the Methodist Church, too. Turns out, my mom and dad were married by a priest AND a pastor, and it was actually my mom's pastor that got my mom's name wrong during the ceremony.

My mom also alluded to the fact a few years ago that my dad may have had a falling out with his home church somewhere in the late seventies, early eighties. As I understand, it was quite the turbulent time for the RC Church around then, and he just got fed up. He's never said why that was, though.

Regardless, to the topic at hand. Apparently, his understanding (and you guys have understand that his Catholic education was before Roe v. Wade) is that if you have an abortion, you're excommunicated. He said that when he does go to confession, and goes through the steps to get back in grace with the Church (can you imagine that? "My last confession was 30 years ago."), he will only mention how he voted if the priest asks him. He didn't vote for Obama because he was pro-choice, my dad voted for Obama because he just plain didn't like McCain, and fell more in line with Obama's other views.

I do think my Church would frown on abortion, but I have never heard anything about not voting for someone based on their views. My hometown is weird though - it's in the North, so it's pretty progressive (I think) on some points, but it's in a really rural area, so it's pretty status quo on other points. The sad part is all the kids keep moving out of town, my dad's one of the younger people in the church and he's 57. I think that's a problem with the Methodist Church as a whole, though, because when I went to church in Pittsburgh I was the youngest there by at least 30 years.

I've gone on another tangent. Sorry.

Tangents are often my favorite part of a thread.

Well now you know that Mike and Carol were married in 1978.

My mom was a little offended. Her name was Karen.

My youngest son's baptism was amazing - the bishop performed the super-deluxe, candle and salt included service - but forgot the critical words "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost". Nope - just plum forgot it. I whispered in my husband's ear "I don't think Liam is really baptized!" After the service we had the conditional "If this child has not been baptized, I baptize you . . ." So hey, just be glad it worked out with Carol/Karen and your dad. :)

The Church does not hold that abortion=excommunication. (The act of procuring an abortion does incur excommunication latae sententiae, but the catechism is clear that the scope of mercy is not restricted.) There is a lot of bad information out there, and much of it does stem from that yucky time after Vatican II when there was a lot of confusion within the Church itself. No sin is unforgiveable with true repentance. The Church even sponsors a program called Rachel's Vineyard to help those traumatized by abortion (usually women who have had them and have guilt). (As well as prison ministries for convicted murderers and other criminals, so there is a lot of evidence out there that the Church actively reaches out to every Catholic, and especially to those in most need of forgiveness.)

Your dad may be like a lot of Catholics who are having to learn a lot on their own. I went to Catholic schools for 13 years and never learned a thing about my religion that mattered. It was all social justice and Kumbayah. I was raised during that period where very liberal cafeteria Catholics were running a lot of the schools and parishes. It took my own initiative as an adult to put the pieces together. It helps that I was raised in a very Catholic home, but like your dad, there were plenty of things that I misunderstood from my youth.

28 and three quarters happy years of marriage - If I didn't believe in soul mates before I did when my mom got sick and my dad spent 12 hours a day, more if they let him, in the hospital with her.

Karen (alias Carol) is in non-denominational heaven now, I do believe. :)

Of course we are, somebody has to be. ;)

Having done the traveling church circuit a few times, the ELCA seems to have catholic with a little c, you guys have the footnote, and our good friends at the WELS just have Christian. They also changed the words, but shoot, they put an ellipsis in any scripture quote that might give women the right to blink, so that's not surprising. The WELS apparently used to have a footnote but it went away.

I had to do this too growing up - we had it down. Communion was always at 9:35 if we went to 9:00 Mass, so we'd eat donuts and milk at 9:28 or so every Sunday. ;)

It's really common at the churches in the midwest to see a lot of couples where one goes and one doesn't. At my church in Minnesota there were a lot of interfaith couples so they started offering a blessing at Communion to those who crossed their arms rather than stuck out their hands or their tongue.

Wow, you spent one year studying a 2000 year-old religion. You must know everything there is to know about it. I'll call the Pope on my special purple phone to let him know we have a new expert on doctrine in town. :rolleyes:

You are doing a nice job in this thread. That is all. :)

Yeah - I put the caveat in there that his Catholic education was from the 50s, he knows there's been a lot of changes/deeper understanding since then.

I made a pastoral comment at the start of this thread. I like to see a church meeting the needs of the congregants on its own terms. Any church.

The pastor was a Brady Bunch fan?

;)

I live in an area that is very evangelical Christian, and not very Catholic. I am a funeral cantor so it is extremely common for most of the congregation at a funeral to be non-Catholic. Our priests offer the crossed-arms blessing to them if they care to receive it. On regular Sundays all children who haven't received First Communion go up to get that blessing as well. (I never did growing up, but I grew up in a very Catholic area in a different part of the country. I think it is a nice cultural gesture.)

Ha or maybe he just saw the show right before heading off to the ceremony. I'm really glad my mom's name wasn't actually Carol. Otherwise, my brother's name would be Greg and my name would be Marcia.

My parents debated on having fun with our names before we were born. A play on words here, alliteration there... my dad saw the combo of my name/middle name in the newspaper. They thought they were freakin' funny. :p

I just want to add, in the Roman Catholic mass, when we recite "One holy, catholic and apostolic church" during the Nicene creed, it is also lower case and meaning "universal". That's why it is followed by "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" The RC church recognizes any Christian baptism. If you have been baptized in another denomination and go through RCIA to convert to Catholicism, you are not baptized again, you only do the sacraments of Communion and Confirmation. Most of the people in my RCIA group had been baptized already in some faith.

The RCIA experience was fascinating and I did it in a rather liberal RC church. The main concerns of most of the people in my group were the church's views on birth control and abortion. When we asked the Priest about those items in particular, he told us that ultimately, what you do is between you and God and if you truly felt that it was detrimental to bring a child into your life at some point, you needed to pray and discern with God what was best.

ETA: For some of us, there is no church that agrees with our belief systems 100%. Does that mean we can never worship in fellowship with others by attending church? Of course not. That just means that ultimately, it will be between us and God.

Not only no religious denomination agrees with my views 100%, but no political party or candidate does either.