dang....please get out of my head.....LOL

In short...from what Obama has said about his life, he knows what it means to struggle...he knows what life is like for the average American....McCain can't say that...almos goes back to the argument...If you don't know how many houses you have...how can you be in touch with the man about to lose his ONE house?

I think most agree that women should have equal rights to men. I think many would disagree about whether they in fact do in all situations.

Agreed, and just to get a little more lawyerish about it, what lyrelyre said was:

"Fundamental right" is a legal term of art; a fundamental right is a right that is derived, explicitly or implicitly, from the fundamental law of the land -- i.e., the federal Constitution or a state constitution.

Lyrelyre is quite correct that no fundamental right to education can be derived from the federal Constitution. My point was simply that such a fundamental right can be derived from some state constitutions.

Ugh. I guess 'living' in a POW camp for 7 years isn't struggling. Poor baby, Obama, had to go to Harvard on financial aid. Maybe I'm just not seeing everything, but McCain has fought FOR EVERYONE both overseas and domestically. I see lots of arguments 'defending' Obam's positions on votes he's participated in (and most that he's abstained on http://www.opencongress.org/people/v...9_barack_obama all the way down to the debateability of his citizenship. I just don't get it. I live in NY (coming from TX, what a difference a liberal state makes), and I work in the financial services industry. I met with 3 separate clients last night, all professionals who are TERRIFIED if BO becomes president. Not everyone is clammoring for these 'changes' that Obama promises (although I believe it to be with fingers crossed behind his back!)

Look at the rest of the world right now. The US is starting to self-destruct itself with all the 'political correctedness' bullshit. While we're fumbling in the dark trying to get our shit together, do you think that Russia or even China aren't plotting to become the new super power.

I will be VERY surprised if (and I've said it before) Obama actually does something productive while in office, or doesn't send the entire population into a tailspin with all of his promises. I'm voting for McCain, because he also preaches that change is needed, but he doesn't propose doing it overnight, as is BO's MO. I think we need change too, but it needs to be gradual. It took us a LONG time to get to where things are now, the brakes just cannot effectively be slammed and 180ed. There is so much going on, that I prefer to have someone OLDER and more experienced helping to make those decisions. I really don't have the time to be chasing some young, wannabe all over the effing country trying to make sure I'll be okay...oh because he knows what it's like to struggle? I'm reading all the bios I can find, and I just don't see anything that really indicates a struggle.

I think it's great that everyone gets so involved in this election, because it is so important. I just get so worried about the rationale some people have for choosing Obama, as I'm sure that many of you have for us choosing McCain.

Political correctness is destroying the America?

I'm guessing that when people talk about struggling in this context, they mean struggling to make a living. I'm also guessing that lots of voters think that someone who can't seem to remember how many houses he currently owns does not know what it's like for many American families today.

I have the utmost respect for John McCain for his military service and his time as a POW. (And it was 5+, not 7, years, but regardless.) I'm not sure though, that experience gives him particular insight into the everyday struggles of many Americans. And sometimes I tend to think it gives him a less than objective view of foreign policy.

Very true, although just as you've qualified it by saying "some people have for choosing Obama," I'd qualify what you said about yourself by saying "some of us for choosing McCain." There are reasonable and unreasonable rationales for choosing either one.

Oh, really? The "average American" doesn't have two Ivy League degrees or a high school education from one of Hawaii's top prep schools. The "average American" doesn't own a house worth $1.4 million. The "average American" cannot send two children to private school. There's a huge difference from coming up in a working-class family (as Obama seems to have) and ending up in the upper-middle class than to be born poor and stay poor.

I'm not saying that McCain is in touch with the "average American" either, but let's not kid ourselves and say Obama is Joe Six Pack.

I sure as heck wouldn't want Joe Six Pack running our country!

To an extent, yes. I think we've gotten so bogged down in making ALL the people happy ALL the time, that the reality of those battles is eating us up. It just seems like nothing can get done fully in this country without someone somewhere having hurt feelings.

I recently read a quote from 2003 from a Rep. Melvyn Watt "In 2003 Watt vehemently opposed efforts by the Bush Administration and Congressional Republicans to increase regulatory oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. "I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing" Uh, yeah, now NOBOBODY without a 800 credit score is going to be able to get a loan. It's like, 'God forbid we tighten the rules for a few people right now, to protect the economy and the rest of the people.' It just keeps happening that we always seem to have to help and maneuver to 'save' the people who screw up their own lives without rewarding the ones who work hard at keeping their stuff together.

I know that I sound mean, selfish, nasty, or whatever, but I'm so sick of working my ass off to pay for the mistakes of others. I'm not saying we should be communist or whatever, but does anyone else think that there is such a thing as TOO free? When does that freedom turn into entitlement?

LOL. Which is one reason I continue to say that choosing Sarah Palin as your running mate =/= "Country First."

Neither would I! But, we can't let ourselves get wrapped up in this image of Obama as the blue-collar savior, that because he only has one house that he's like the "average American." No, he's above average, just like John McCain.

Not talking about where he is now..I am talking about where he has been...he has not always lived in a million dollar home or came from a family full Ivy League students...that is the approach I am taking with what I said. Obama comes off as knowing what it's like to be poor and knows what it's like to work hard to live a comfortable life. McCain to me doesn't strike me that way....hell, I can relate more to Palin knowing what it's like to struggle a bit with family and bills moreso than I can see McCain being able to relate.

That is why I cringe when he says that he doesn't want to tax the wealthy because he knows that he and his wife would be included...and we all know that the last thing anyone want is somebody messing with their money...especially when you don't have any and those that have more than enough don't want to give any up.

You do realize that at no point has he said "I don't want to tax the wealthy" don't you? Oh of course not, you just hear what you want to.

Can someone explain this to me like I'm 5? Why do people who work hard to make high salaries (believe me, I am far from being one of them!) have to pay more taxes? I compare to upper-ups in my company. One floats around, nobody sees him, and when you do he's pretending to work. The other works his butt off, does a great job managing and balancing his large family. Now, I wouldn't mind at all if the one lazy manager has to pay more, but the other one really does work to have what he has. How is that fair? Is that just 'classist'? NOBODY WANTS to pay taxes, regardless of how much they make, since they're included in that isn't it just honesty?

I'm really looking all over the place to see where Obama has struggled at all, DaemonSeid. I guess maybe mine and Obama's (and your!) idea of living 'comfortably' is very different. Loosing your parents at a young age sucks. Moving all over the place sucks too. Haven't seen anything about him working three jobs just so his kids can eat, or having family members share a small apartment just so nobody's on the street, in fact, his father went to Harvard too, right?

Munch: 'blue-collar savior'...I love it!

You know, if BO wins, I REALLY hope that I'm eating crow. Until then, I'll just be holding my breath, as I am now, watching the stock market.

Did he ever really struggle that much, though? I mean, both his father and stepfather had decent jobs (didn't his stepfather work for Mobil or something like that?), his mother had a college education (and a graduate degree, I believe), and, even when he was living with his grandparents, I thought that they were, at least, upper middle class. Also, as Munchkin pointed out, he did go to a rather prestigous private high school; again, that takes away, at least a little, with him being able to be in touch with the "regular American." I may be wrong on this, but beyond the divorce aspect, it seems like he came from an upper-middle class background.

I could see that he would face adversity growing up because of his race - but I think one could reasonably describe his life growing up as "comfortable." That's not to say McCain didn't have a good life growing up, but I don't think you can make that great a distinction between McCain and Obama in that way.

I see where you're going with your thoughts - as I've said many times, I didn't grow up with much money, and I know the every day stresses of the lower middle class American family all too well (although, as a white family in the Northeast, that does limit my understanding to a certain extent); I understand when a family has to make tough choices, sometimes between things such as medical care and food. I personally don't think either of these candidates truly understands that perspective, and honestly, that's fine with me. They don't have to empathize or sympathize with the struggles, as long as they work out reasonable domestic policy.

It's fine if you want to make these subjectively make these distinctions between McCain and Obama because of your own leanings, but I don't think, from an objective standpoint, that one could say that one candidate understands those types of struggles any more than the other.

I think that, perhaps, it's a question of how one defines "fair share." To some people, everyone paying their fair share means, for example, everyone paying X%. (Of course, even under this simple formula, those who make more are paying more in fact, even if they are paying the same proportionally.)

Others would disagree that this is the fairest way to assess taxes. Say X% = 20%. 20% of $30,000 takes a much bigger chunk out of what is needed to live on than, say, 20% of $300,000. Hence, tax brackets in a progressive tax system like we have now. Of course, all of that gets muddled once deductions, credits and the like all get mixed into the equation.

I think that one can have "classist" reasons for thinking that the wealthier should pay more, and I think that others can have, for want of a better word, "honest" reasons for thinking so. And I don't think anyone can seriously question that the current tax structure is a mess and needs overhauling. I'll admit, though, that I don't know the best (and fairest) way to fix it; I doubt, though, that there's on;y one "right" way.

McCain:

So let's not raise anybody's taxes, my friends, and make it be very clear to you I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy. I am in favor of leaving the tax rates alone and reducing the tax burden on middle-income Americans by doubling your tax exemption for every child from $3,500 to $7,000."

He still never explained how reducing the tax burden would help people who have no kids.

And what would have to be done to increase the EIC? I don't see that as somehting that would happen over night and even still, I have an odd feeling that part of that increase has to do with the $5000 he 'promises' to give Americans to buy health care...at that point you will NEED the increased EIC to pay the premiums!

Honest-to-God question: what about Obama makes you think he can relate to someone in your position (i.e. a hard-working, middle-class single mother in a state with a declining manufacturing economy)?

I was raised in a single parent household, for starters....

small difference, my father died when I was 5 weeks...

I still managed to make it thru school, college and did all of this in a rough environment and still have my head on straight.

English 101:

Not raising taxes and not being in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy =/= What you said is absolute -- no taxation of the wealthy period. What you quoted doesn't say that.

History lesson....remember who said that:

No NEW taxes...and what happened?

Those taxes went UP

So let's not raise anybody's taxes,

But, how many candidates said that and taxes went up?

and those increased taxes affected who, exactly? (Rhetorical)

As the deficit increases in this country so do our taxes to pay for them...but when have we seen that apply to those who make millions and billions?

So you're saying that because Bush I increased taxes, after saying he wouldn't that, logically speaking, McCain would lower taxes for the wealthy? I don't quite get how that computes. By your logic in this post, if Obama said that he won't raise taxes on a particular segment of society, that means that he will actually raise those taxes, because once a politician promises not to raise taxes, that means he or she will do it.

If you want to say that, because of your support of Obama, you truly believe he'll have a more "fair" tax structure, or something like that, that's one thing and completely understandable. But, you seem to be twisting words to make your point.

I am wondering the exact same thing!! My husband and I are part of the demographic considered wealthy by Obama's standards but I can tell you that we are a far cry from wealthy. We live in that nasty income bracket where we get hit with the AMT every year so we can't maximize deductions, we don't qualify for financial aid so we pay out of pocket for kids colleges, we don't qualify for stimulus help, and we probably won't qualify for any of the amazing tax credits promised by either candidate. So once we pay our 'fair share' of taxes, pay tuition, pay medical bills, and dental etc there isn't a ton left over for us to be in any way considered wealthy. Yeah, we worked so hard and payed our way through college and worked long hours to get where we are at. It's like being penalized for achieving, in other words why is my hard work not valued as much as a middle class person's hard work by the government? Why is the upper-middle class now considered wealthy? If Obama wants to come see my 'truly wealthy' lifestyle, he can come cut coupons with me and I can drive him around in my car with 110,000 miles on and hoping that it will last another couple of years! On this point I believe that Obama is very much out of touch

DS: In fact "I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy" would seem to indicate the exactly opposite of what you're saying, he quite clearly wants to tax the wealthy if they are the ones not getting tax cuts.

BUT I don't really care to defend the tax system or income tax plans anyways. FAIR Tax all the way, baby.

No...that is not what I mean at all...what I mean is McCain won't change taxes at all for the wealthy (those that pay their taxes anyways) but what he will do is if he has to find a way to generate more income, is tax those that are not rich.

Look back at what I just said about his health program.

I used the example of Bush I to show you how even when he said 'no new taxes', he still found ways to raise taxes and most of that came out of working America's pocket.

What I AM saying however, is, if either feels a need to increase taxes, take it from those that will "miss" it the least.

IMO, McCain's plan benefits he and anyone that can 'afford' to have several houses and think that 5 mil. is 'middle income' (yes, I know it's a joke but still).

Take a look:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...d_pattern.html

and from earlier this year...

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-t...s_wealthy.html

Let me see if I have this straight. You said McCain has said he does not want to tax the wealthy.

When challenged on that, you countered with his statements in Tuesday night's debate: "Let's not raise anybody's taxes" and "I am not in favor of tax cuts for the wealthy."

When it was pointed out to you that those comments are not statements that "he does not want to tax the wealthy," you responded by essentially saying that because Bush and others went back on their campaign promises, McCain's statements must be interpreted to mean "he does not want to tax the wealthy"?

Your logic does not resemble our Earth logic.

(It's always a good day when you can quote Buffy Summers.)

scroll up

I did. Do I understand you correctly now? Are you're admitting that McCain hasn't said he doesn't want to tax the wealthy? And are you understanding that any confusion was because were took you to mean what you said? ;)

You know...it's great that we can have these discussions and disagree on this as we clearly think that it's important...but someone please give John a clue right now:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081009/.../obama_ayers_2

I still say, when he had him face to face tuesday, why didn't he slide it in?

(Rhetorical)

Last desperate chance by McCain and I think this is the big mistake that will cost him...but...let's carry on shall we?

we are close...

McCain will not raise taxes on the wealthy <---clear?

if taxes are raised in his admin it will be on the poor and middle income people <---clear?

That article was about Sarah Palin, why would someone need to "give John a clue?"

ummm...who does Palin work for??

you may want to see this too

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/200....MH8MFTelsnwcF

ETA

If anything, today has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt McCain doesn't believe in what he says

In 2000

He said "...when you run negative attack ads, you have no vision or cant articulate your own vision."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsX2Gx9jl_o -

u cant make that up.

Here I am going around feeling like I'm the only one who thinks this guy is a phony. I sent an email to my dad (also a McCain supporter in TX) and asked if there was just something that I was missing, I must've missed the magical Obama Juice when it was being passed around.

Just got back from the dentist, who have me some hope. We, of course, tiptoed around each other as to who our vote was for. When I just came out and told him, he exasperatedly said, "THANK GOD!" Then he preceded to drill on my tooth telling me why. LOL! He said that he thinks that people might say a lot now, but when it comes to really making the choice, they'll go the McCain way. This kind of goes with my lines of hopeful thinking. He says that the only reason people are picking BO is he's the 'popular' guy. Makes sense, 'cause Oprah told me so'. And, yes, hun, he IS out of touch with his 1.6 million dollar income.

On a side note, why is just anybody and their dog allowed to vote? What is up with this 'register the day before, and go vote' crap? I'll check to see if there is another thread.

Quite clear in both cases. Just so we continue to be clear, neither of those two things are what you said before. ;)

I did...you misunderstood me...and we will KIM.

So, if Obama said something 8 years ago, and then is doing somethign else today, does that mean that he doesn't believe what he says? Or is that different?

No, you didn't. You may have MEANT it, but the words you said have a clear meaning, and it's one quite distinct from what you're insisting now that you were talking about.

That may be the case with some people. But your dentist is either really ignorant or has been sniffing something in his office if he really thinks that the only reason people are picking Obama is because he's "the popular guy" or because "Oprah told them to." ;)

Some people are going with Obama because they sincerely believe, after {gasp} thinking about it, that he is the better choice. Some people, believe it or not, don't trust McCain any more than you trust Obama. Some people think that picking Sarah Palin to be a heartbeat away from the presidency demonstrated that McCain's judgment is sorely lacking. Some people disagree with McCain's approach to foreign policy in general and the Iraq War in particular. People support Obama and McCain for all kinds of reasons -- in both cases, some good, some bad.

And I've got to tell you -- I've had more than one conversation with Republicans who voted for Bush both times and who are not only supporting Obama but very turned off by McCain. And to a person, the economy is the reason.

It definitely works both ways - one of the things that has really turned me off to this election cycle is people, on both sides of the aisle, acting like there is only one reasonable pick for President. Again, as I've said before, I can understand being completely supportive of a candidate, falling for a candidate, so to speak, to the point where you don't see as many of their flaws.

But, I can't understand the mindset that there's only one reasonable pick, or that you have to be crazy, starstruck, or otherwise flawed to pick one candidate over another. I may not agree with people who support Obama, and I may have my own feelings about whether or not he is the best person to run the country, but I certainly understand why someone would want to vote for him. I would hope that others would give me the same respect about my decision to vote McCain, or that others would respect those who have chosen to vote Obama, but that "mutual partisan respect," so to speak, has been missing this election cycle.

Very well said. As you and I have discussed before, I agree completely.

You know, i've seen this too. Except i've seen that type of respect from McCain supporters. I still don't know who i'm voting for, but God help me if I mention (to my friends who support Obama) that i *might* vote for McCain. My vote is just as valid as theirs, and It should be respected.

I've even gotten the "well you must be racist" comment from people that I don't even know. Ummm...since when is NOT voting for Barack Obama mean that i'm racist against blacks?