Brother, I am not even going to try nor do I even wish to fight with you about this one. However please note my high-lights of yours and note following quote from another poster.
From from my POV, experience etal , if something keeps going on at some point in time and place S**t happens. And when that happens, no one is going to be around to hold hands. More likely they will be pointing with one hand while trying to hold their nose and wallet at the same time.
And nothing is as secret as a college student may think it is.

No you're right, nothing is as secret as we all think.......that's what makes it even more incredible that nothing happens. Everyone knows but some of the chapters in question incur zero consequences.

The story PhiGam posted is a pretty good example of how much it takes to bring the house down, in my opinion. I mean....a hemophiliac getting cut up badly could spell death if I'm not mistaken......pretty serious.

Jon... the thing is that it is NOT secret at all. I can tell you when every fraternity at FSU's hell week is, I have seen pledges running around campus at 3am in sharps, I have seen pledges lined up doing push ups in the middle of campus. Every sorority girl has has received a lovely 2am serenade from an entire pledge class. Hazing is, for the most part, accepted here so long as nothing happens that seriously endangers the life of a pledge.
Just going to reiterate that my chapter does not haze though, we are the only one.

From the article about Pike's hazing allegations at UT:

I really don't see how anything that a person willingly wants to do can be considered hazing.

I could construe the legal definition to say that my professors are hazing me by assigning papers.

:)

Only if you are supposedly in pursuit of the organization known as "students without Fs." Plus, the papers your professors assign you are course requirements and even rites of passage that are well documented, just like the formal requirements and rites of passage for your fraternity are.

It is also a good thing that consent is not a legal defense because that angle has been attempted over and over again throughout the years. So the laws have been updated accordingly.

This is my biggest problem with hazing laws.

Hm, so Bob, says go ahead, paddle me, make me overly drink, stuff my mouth with unthinkable things, over do physical workouts then it is alright?:o:rolleyes:

Absolutely as long as he wants to join the organization.

If he doesn't want to join it, no one's forcing him to.

Well, another hazing thread brings us full circle. :)

As has been said in other threads, these hazing laws are thankfully not about personal opinion or perceptions of "common sense."

Thankfully, the defense of "she/he asked to be paddled to a pulp and to flatline on a hospital bed...she/he REALLY wanted to be in XYZ" doesn't hold up in court.

I agree. I was also thinking along the lines of:
"Well Officer, they really wanted me to kill them. Really wanted me to drive both drunk and stoned. At over 200 mph through school and hospital zones. At high Noon. On the opposite side of the road. In reverse. And I agreed with him that I should so. So I am free to go, correct?"
And could I please have all of my weapons back? I am in a bit of a rush to get to my Pledge meeting.:D;)

Almost every fraternity related death that I've heard of or read about was the result of abusive drinking. That said, we need have any character-building activities that involve drinking. I really don't think someone is going to 'flat line' from being pushed outside of their comfort level by activities that are comparable to their sports practice in high school.

The very idea that someone can be arrested for allowing you to do something you want to do seems down right fascist. Under the logic of the current hazing laws pledges shouldn't be allowed to compete in intramurals, seeings as the running would put them under physical stress in the name of the fraternity.

The majority of the sorority and fraternity related injuries and deaths that I'm talking about have nothing to do with abusive drinking.

But the rest of this is redundant because the other threads have talked the "choice" that hazing victims perceive that they have even in binge drinking incidents. Consent makes sense in theory so a lot of people understand where you are coming from, bowsandtoes, but consent doesn't operate the same way in practice.

Why don't you secede? :cool:

I know of at least one fraternity that I named above that is planning on doing this in the not so distant future (5-10 years). Stockpiling money, readying alumni, etc. My fraternity is not in the position to do so, but could if given 15-20 years.