If you feel like you've been threatened, I think you should talk to an initiated brother you trust.

And I'm sorry, fraternity men, but I can't understand how physically attacking someone or beating them instills respect and brotherhood. Are you guys just making up for not being spanked by your helicopter parents while growing up?

i've received this information from multiple sources, from brothers I trust. However, I'm sure they're going to tell me if I decide to DA. They will probably be like yeah "we were just joking" or something, but I dont know if thatll change my mind much, as the initiation problems only reflect the many problems that exist besides that in my mind.

The experiences we shared during pledging were real. No one can take that away from us. I had there backs so many times. Sometimes i [literally] carried them on my back

If they don't actually have back after all those times I've had theirs then I guess, I wouldn't really want to make friends with them anyways. True brotherhood is about supporting each other no matter the outcome of the situation.

True brothers don't quit.

I can see this issue two ways:

One, I have always wondered why people who were injured during hazing didn't walk away from the situation before it got that bad. So I have a level of admiration for a person being ready to do that.

On the other hand, I don't believe things will stay the same with your pledge brothers if you quit. Even if they don't specifically view you as weaker for not making it through, you will be the guy who stood outside or above the values of the immediate group, and most people aren't going to be so comfortable with that once they are full members. The bond you share will be replaced by the bond the have with each other, I'm afraid.

I suppose in a perfect world, I'd like to see you and your pledge brother together go to the older brothers and discuss your concerns with them. I don't know how realistic it is, but it sure seems better than dropping out or accepting the hazing.

Having a unified front and saying ENOUGH as a pledge class/line is always an option.

"Realistic" comes into play when pledges are too afraid of the assumed and perceived consequences of standing up to the members of the chapter.

Assumed and perceived indeed. I think it takes more balls to stand up to someone than to quit because of something you thought might happen.

I think there might be more going on here than we think.

I don't have a problem with standing up and trying to make a change, the problem becomes apparent when the process must be approved by national HQ and Alpha chapter, its not just my brothers I must convince (which is already a task in itself) And while me and my pbros are really close, they just dont share the same viewpoint I have about hazing. They don't really care.

As a sidenote, the initiation is nothing compared to pledging itself it's only because i feel lied too that this is even an issue. In terms toughness it shouldn't even be an issue because i could definately stand the physical aspects of it. It's the morals I have a problem with.

I know the older brothers quite well, I believe it will be almost impossible to convince them to stop hazing unless I'm in some sort of executive position (which would take more work than I have time for)

Okay then, but you can see that your dropping has a much smaller effect on the welfare of the group overall.

But I don't think you should agree be hazed either.

You know what your choices are better than I do.

If you can't (or won't) invest the time required to make a positive impact on the fraternity, then you should quit. And it's probably going to sound mean to say this, but I'm gonna say it anyway (especially since you haven't really given us a whole lot of information, and all we can do is speculate)...

It sounds like you're trying to hide behind the excuse that your brothers have lied, instead of owning up to the realization that contributing to a Greek organization requires much effort.

You've made a couple of comments regarding not having the time to do what you think needs to be done for the benefit of the group. If you realize you don't have the time (which you've admitted), then just say you're quitting because you don't have the time. Don't say you're quitting because you feel like the group has less-than-desirable morals. Be honest. With yourself and the brotherhood. If you're not up front about why you're quitting, then you're lying just as much as the brothers you're complaining about.

It's more than just not having the time, because if it was an organization that I thought was worth investing in then, any time would be necessary. But you have to understand that in order to reach an executive position I would have to actually go through the initiation process, pledge a few classes myself (all the while exemplifying the morals I'm against) then once I reach that position immediately denounce all I've ever gone through or done. Not to mention the chances of me being able to change Alpha chapter and HQ's mind's are slim to none.

I just think it's funny how just because I refuse to go through initiation and haze other pledges I'm being called out as having "no heart" and "no commitment" it would have been impossible to make it through pledging had been true. I've speant weeks staying up in bed agonizing myself over this decision.

The only chance I had to of changing the brotherhood was in the afformentioned posts above of the entire pledge class standing their ground against it. Unfortunately, the majority of my bros either have no opinion, or are firmly FOR the pledging process.

Not a single person who posted wants you to haze others.

That's just crazy talk because you are making excuses about not trying to make reforms.

I highly doubt your HQ is condoning the hazing.

Of course not!:rolleyes:

But you are going to tell me it is not happening at this particular chapter?:rolleyes:

So you're saying that your HQ not only condones the hazing, but requires it? I don't think so. The actives are lying to you again. I'd really love to see in some fraternity's bylaws that "taking wood" is required for initiation.