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-   -   Minimum Wage (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=80043)

KSig RC 08-17-2006 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstar
OK has one of the highest rates of people working for minimum wage. Almost all of those people fall below the poverty line.

(trimmed)

Hell, half the teachers I know have to take a less than minimum wage job just to live over the poverty line.
I'd like proof that "most hospitals in OK" employ people below minimum wage - citations would be nice.

Also, I've explained already why singles who work at $5.25 are above the poverty line if they work full-time - it's only when you account for children or live-in spouses who are not employed that the issue starts. Also this is ALL taken BEFORE public aid, for purposes of definition. So . . . it appears that minimum wage is no death sentence (and yes, I'm walking you into this one).

You've written a lot, but you're not really proving anything - I'd like some support for your assertions.

Kevin 08-17-2006 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC
I'd like proof that "most hospitals in OK" employ people below minimum wage - citations would be nice.
They can't unless they're exempt from labor laws (and they're not).

Rollergirl2001 08-17-2006 05:42 PM
[QUOTE=PM_Mama00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFrog


Not to mention, but if you can barely afford food, then why are you going for the most expensive gallon of milk? And why are you going to the movie theater when you can rent the movie for way cheaper when it comes out on video?

I'm making $8 at one job, and $10 at the other. I work a total of maybe 3 days a week. I could survive on my own if I didn't have a car, insurance, paid for BC and a pretty expensive phone bill every month. I could probably have a decent apartment with a roomate, maybe nothing special to it, but a roof over my head and a job that I can work my way up on or just get experience for another job. If you're making minimum wage, or around what I'm making (which amounts to horsecrap) maybe you should skip out on that $8 movie and buy yourself a $1something gallon of milk. It's all about budgeting wisely.
I'm afraid that you misinterpret what I said. I'm not saying to go for the expensive milk. What I meant is that things are getting expensive, thanks to inflation and the weaseling of the Bush administration. I don't remember a gallon of the most expensive milk being that high. BTW, the cheapest gallon of milk in my area is just over $2.25. Even if a person were to budget wisely, he (she) might come up on the short end of the stick when it comes to getting essentials. When a person has to get gas, the station with the cheapest gas price may be a 5 or even 10 minute drive as opposed to another station that is a 2 minute drive.

AlphaFrog 08-17-2006 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollergirl2001
I'm afraid that you misinterpret what I said. I'm not saying to go for the expensive milk. What I meant is that things are getting expensive, thanks to inflation and the weaseling of the Bush administration
Thanks to inflation. What do you think raising min wage will do??

INFLATION

DeltAlum 08-17-2006 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFrog
FOR CHRIST'S SAKE...NO ONE WITH A LEGAL SSN MAKES LESS THEN MIN. WAGE!!
That's a pretty broad statement and I don't think you can prove it.

In fact, I know you can't.

My four year old grandchild has a legal SSN and she doesn't make anything. She costs a lot, though.

I also don't think you would have to dig too deeply to find teenagers or migrant laborers who have valid SSN's and are being paid less than minimum wage. It may not be legal, but do you really think everyone obeys the law.

I'm sorry I got started here...

Even at $8.00/hr, that's under $17,000 per year before taxes. Consider how easy it would be for, let's say a single mother with a young child to live on that.

You can talk all you want about politics and higher economics, but it doesn't help that low end wage earner. Even the fairly small inflations numbers are significant -- not to mention $3.00 per gallon gas prices. How long has it been since the minimum wage went up? How much inflation has there been over those years? During that same amount of time, how much has the profit of those small businesses everyone is so worried about climbed?

I know there are no hard answers, that every case is different, but I'd be very surprized if the percentages didn't end up favoring the businesses over the minimum wage earners.

I'm not making this a political debate or blaming Bush -- this problem pre-dates him and the Republican Congress.

People (including one of my daughters) are struggling. I really have a problem that over the course of X number of years, Congress has given itself X number of substantial raises, and I have to help my daughter with her car insurance payment -- which happened about 35 minutes ago -- because she barely makes enough to feed herself and her daughter. She works her butt off and takes no amount of public assistance.

Sorry. I think the whole debate is shameful.

bluefish81 08-17-2006 06:22 PM
As far as minimum wage goes, aren't some small businesses exempt from having to pay minimum wage, depending on how much they make or size or something? One of my summer jobs back in high school was at the hometown grocery store (employed 5 people) and they didn't pay me federal minimum wage.

And as far as cost of items goes, I'm no expert, but my guess would be that some of the reason that items might be going up in the stores could be in part, due to gas prices. A majority of your goods arrive via semi, and diesel has gone up in price over the past couple of years which has causes shipping prices to go up. Maybe I'm completely off target, but I'm going to bet that the cost for that is getting passed on to the consumer.

Lady Pi Phi 08-17-2006 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFrog
I can attest to this. Licenced plumbers make probably as much as most people with a BS or BA (or in a lot of cases, more). The trade off is working hard labor for the rest of your life.
That's also true, but some people like that kind of work. I know Mr. Pi Phi does.

preciousjeni 08-17-2006 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by valkyrie
Unless that movie is Snakes on a Plane, in which case it's totally okay.
LOL!

preciousjeni 08-17-2006 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstar
Wait staff shouldn't have to rely on tips as the rednecks here in OK don't usually know how to tip, the restaurant should pay minimum wage not pass the cost to the customers.
Where do you think the restaurant gets the money to pay the minimum wage.

I'm trying to understand the minimum wage argument but it sounds to me like people are complaining about quality of life. In this country, you'd be HARD PRESSED to go without a roof over your head, food in your belly and clothes on your back. Health care is also accessible to the truly needy. What I'm hearing from people is that they want to live larger so they need more money.

It's this mentality that is causing Americans to accrue such enormous debt that they can't pay it off before their own death! It's a very sad state of affairs. Budget your money, GO WITHOUT (sacrifice seems to be a foreign concept to some folks), and you can make it.

valkyrie 08-17-2006 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by preciousjeni
I'm trying to understand the minimum wage argument but it sounds to me like people are complaining about quality of life. In this country, you'd be HARD PRESSED to go without a roof over your head, food in your belly and clothes on your back. Health care is also accessible to the truly needy. What I'm hearing from people is that they want to live larger so they need more money.
I don't think this is true. There is a large homeless population in Denver -- I would have a very hard time believing that they're hard pressed to be sleeping in parking lots or lined up around the shelters every night.

I don't know the answers, but raising the minimum wage once in a while makes perfect sense to me -- as does a pay cut for politicians, but I suppose that's not likely.

preciousjeni 08-17-2006 06:52 PM
[QUOTE=DeltAlum]
Quote:
Even at $8.00/hr, that's under $17,000 per year before taxes. Consider how easy it would be for, let's say a single mother with a young child to live on that.
Poverty is figured after deductions and exemptions. This single mother would qualify for public assistance. She wouldn't be on the street but she might not live how she might wish she could. We have to get it out of our heads that just because we want it, we're entitled to it. That's simply not how this world works.

Quote:
During that same amount of time, how much has the profit of those small businesses everyone is so worried about climbed?
FYI, small business are on a decline these days.

Quote:
I know there are no hard answers, that every case is different, but I'd be very surprized if the percentages didn't end up favoring the businesses over the minimum wage earners.
Why shouldn't it favor the businesses? If the business goes under, the minimum wage earners will be making $0/hour.

Quote:
People (including one of my daughters) are struggling. I really have a problem that over the course of X number of years, Congress has given itself X number of substantial raises, and I have to help my daughter with her car insurance payment -- which happened about 35 minutes ago -- because she barely makes enough to feed herself and her daughter. She works her butt off and takes no amount of public assistance.
Why doesn't she take public assistance? It's not a pride thing. It's a survival thing. There's no shame in working hard and needing a little extra boost to take care of your family. She'd be precisely the type of person for whom the entire system was created! It's the folks who don't try who are dragging it down.

preciousjeni 08-17-2006 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by valkyrie
I don't think this is true. There is a large homeless population in Denver -- I would have a very hard time believing that they're hard pressed to be sleeping in parking lots or lined up around the shelters every night.
There are not just a few people who choose homelessness. The others, for the most part, have mental issues/drug issues/etc. that are an impediment to seeking out the proper avenues to help themselves. These are the people that many non-profit social service orgs reach out to. It's hard to help people who either don't want the help or don't know they need it. But, their homelessness is not an issue of minimum wage.

ETA: I'm SURE there are people who are temporarily homeless when they find themselves just at the tail end of a very bad situation. But the circumstance can be remedied.

kstar 08-17-2006 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktsnake
Why the personal attacks? Doesn't properly socialize? What do you mean? It's true that I don't really socialize with people who aren't of a similar background as myself. I think that's true of most people. Do you want me to go make some poor 'friends' so that I can claim that I properly socialize?

Your second sentence is as ridiculous as your first. I don't care how many people here receive minimum wage. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Oklahoma has about 4% of its population working at or below minimum wage. This of course can be largely attributed to the fact that in Oklahoma, waiters and waitresses almost without exception work for $2.35/hr. The rest of their salary is tips. In other words, if these are the stats you're relying on, they're extremely misleading.

Maybe we have too many unskilled workers? How would raising the minimum wage help our economy and help those people? I get it -- we just throw money at the problem, pay our lowest-skilled workers another couple of bucks per hour, and the problem goes away, right?



Your contentions are simply false insofar as I know. I don't know anyone at a hospital who receives minmum wage. I've already explained how your information regarding restaurant staffs was misleading. The businesses have the right to offer as much or as little as is needed to keep the positions filled and the quality of employees at a tolerable level. People who earn minimum wage have a world of options open to them. Framing houses, roof work, pouring concrete, janitorial services -- these jobs are all readily available, and they all pay well above minimum wage.



Wal-Mart doesn't even pay minimum wage. Here in Oklahoma, in a place where the cost of living about the lowest you'll find, even Wal-Mart pays at least $6.50 if not $7.00/hr to its employees. Even so, the minimum wage earners in those kinds of jobs are easily interchangable, they have no real value to the company, so why should the company be forced to pay more for the employee than the employee is worth?

Shouldn't the burden be on the employee to improve their worth??
I believe that you shouldn't be able to state that min. wage shouldn't be raised until you either have to live on it, or know people who do. You are so lucky that you don't have to sully your hands with us lower classed people. I don't know how in the world you went to a public school and didn't interact with people of a lower class than you.

Wait staff in OK makes 2.13 an hour. Nice try though. Both Wal-Marts in Norman pay 5.15 and hour, plus the bare minimum of benefits. Again, nice try though. Norman Regional Hospital's kitchen positions and janitorial staff make 5.15 an hour. Again, nice try.

How are these people supposed to improve their worth if they aren't even paid enough to live on?

kstar 08-17-2006 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC
I'd like proof that "most hospitals in OK" employ people below minimum wage - citations would be nice.

Also, I've explained already why singles who work at $5.25 are above the poverty line if they work full-time - it's only when you account for children or live-in spouses who are not employed that the issue starts. Also this is ALL taken BEFORE public aid, for purposes of definition. So . . . it appears that minimum wage is no death sentence (and yes, I'm walking you into this one).

You've written a lot, but you're not really proving anything - I'd like some support for your assertions.

That was a typo, it should read that most hospitals employ their unskilled staff AT MIN. WAGE, not under.

The thing is that most people who work for min. wage aren't single. After taxes, their take home pay does put them well under the poverty line.

preciousjeni 08-17-2006 07:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kstar
That was a typo, it should read that most hospitals employ their unskilled staff AT MIN. WAGE, not under.

The thing is that most people who work for min. wage aren't single. After taxes, their take home pay does put them well under the poverty line.
It's a few years old but... http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/542.html

The number of people not paying taxes continues to grow. Y'all keep talking about such and such "before taxes" but from where I'm standing, it looks like those folks probably aren't paying taxes anyway.

Taxes might be coming out of their paychecks (and the gov't is stealing what they could have earned had they saved or invested the money) but still they are receiving a full refund of taxes at year's end.

Edited because I left out three words...


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