this is the only thing I found remotely relating to any type of culture suppression...

So Mac, if U.S. citizens are expected to know english, so would Mexicans have been.

Also, I'm not really sure how that treaty applies at all to illegals. It seems to only apply to those Mexicans left over in the United States' new lands following the Mexican-American War.

[sidetrack]
Maybe it's time for this group of Greeks to pull out the original lyrics:

I.
To Anacreon in Heav'n,
Where he sat in full glee,
A few Sons of Harmony
Sent a petition
That he their Inspirer
And Patron would be;
When this answer arrived
From the Jolly Old Grecian:
"Voice, Fiddle, and Flute,
No longer be mute,
I'll lend you my name
And inspire you to boot,
Chorus:
And besides I'll instruct you,
Like me, to intwine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus's Vine."

II.
The news through Olympus
Immediately flew;
When Old Thunder pretended
To give himself airs.
"If these Mortals are suffered
Their scheme to pursue,
The devil a Goddess,
Will stay above stairs.
Hark, already they cry,
In transports of joy,
'Away to the Sons
Of Anacreon we'll fly,
Chorus:
And there with good fellows,
We'll learn to intwine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus' Vine.

III.
"The Yellow-Haired God
And his nine fusty Maids
From Helicon's banks
Will incontinent flee,
Idalia will boast
But of tenantless shades,
And the bi-forked hill
A mere desert will be.
My Thunder no fear on't,
Shall soon do its errand,
And dam'me I'll swing
The Ringleaders I warrant.
Chorus:
I'll trim the young dogs,
For thus daring to twine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus's Vine."

IV.
Apollo rose up,
And said, "Pry'thee ne'er quarrel,
Good King of the Gods,
With My Vot'ries below:
Your Thunder is useless"--
Then showing his laurel,
Cry'd "Sic evitabile
Fulmen, you know!
Then over each head,
My laurels I'll spread,
So my sons from your Crackers
No mischief shall dread,
Chorus:
While, snug in their clubroom,
They jovially twine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus's Vine."

V.
Next Momus got up
With his risible Phiz
And swore with Apollo
He'd cheerfully join --
"The full tide of Harmony
Still shall be his,
But the Song, and the Catch,
And the Laugh shall be mine.
Then, Jove, be not jealous
Of these honest fellows."
Cry'd Jove, "We relent,
Since the truth you now tell us:
Chorus:
And swear by Old Styx,
That they long shall intwine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus's Vine."

VI.
Ye Sons of Anacreon,
Then join hand in hand;
Preserve Unanimity,
Friendship, and Love!
'Tis yours to support
What's so happily plann'd;
You've the sanction of Gods,
And the Fiat of Jove.
While thus we agree,
Our toast let it be:
"May our Club flourish Happy,
United, and Free!
Chorus:
And long may the Sons
Of Anacreon intwine
The Myrtle of Venus
With Bacchus's Vine."

[/sidetrack]

I'm not confused, I already knew it wasn't an exact translation - exact translations are often really hard to do. We need to remember that the song still needed to sound decent in terms of phrasing and such, so liberties may have been taken.

Personally, I think the only part that isn't pretty much a match is:
a symbol of victory
the glory of battle, the march toward liberty.
Throughout the night, they proclaimed: "We will defend it!"

That doesn't seem to be fostering any sort of agenda except to say the flag is a beautiful symbol and people should defend it. I don't think they should have called it "Our Hymn" though - something closer to "Star Spangled Banner" would have been better and omitting the word "Our" would have helped the cause.

And folks, please don't get into a "if you don't want to be here then leave" argument. This has nothing to do with not wanting to be here or trying to make America into their home country...:rolleyes:

My guess is that it's the "second verse" that's getting to some people:

Its stars, its stripes, liberty, we are equal.
We are brothers, it is our anthem.
In the fierce combat, as a sign of victory,
The brilliance of battle... (My people, keep fighting!)
...in step with freedom, (Now is the time to break the chains!)
Throughout the night they said: "It will be defended!"
Oh say you! Does it still wave, its starred beauty,
Over the land of the free, the sacred flag?


This doesn't really match up to any of the remaining verses of "The Star-Spangled Banner" as far as I can tell, although it does seem to pull some themes and images from all three of the remaining verses.

I would love to see a quick poll done of how many Americans know there are 4 verses to"The Star-Spangled Banner" or could quote even one line from any verse but the first. I think that gets at why I'm having a hard time getting worked-up over Nuestro Himno. Most native-born English speakers don't even know the whole song, so most native-born English speakers wouldn't know whether the translation draws on verses other than the first one.

Forget the other verses, I'd like to see a poll of how many Americans could make it through the first verse.

Of course, then you have the issue of "Ok, we sung it - now, what does that even mean?" I don't know many "folks on the street" who could give a working definition of a "rampart".

LOL! You can sing Die Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen for me anytime.

So basically if someone doesn't know who the vice-president of America is, they have no right to complain if someone a la Hitler were to take up the position?

Or maybe if someone doesn't know their rights when arrested, they have no right to complain afterwards. Except the courts see it differently.

-Rudey

Ok, but until my voice decides to start cooperating with me, it will have to be minus the first set of coloratura.;)

Ummm, no, but good try on spinning the comment completely out of context and trying to turn it into something I didn't suggest at all. Seriously, I don't know how you got there.

My point was actually quite a simple and straightfoward one: In my opinion, for decades, American culture has treated "The Star-Spangled Banner" with a fair amount of disrespect, particularly in the form of "artistic freedom and interpretation" but also in the form of not even learning the whole song. (Yes, there was a time when all school children learned all 4 verses). That's why, again in my opinion, it's ironic for Americans to complain about disrespect being shown the national anthem.

In my opinion, the melting pot is calling the la caldera black.

Ironic is irrelevant. My analogies were good. Here's another one. It's ironic for a convicted murderer to tell the police about witnessing another murder. Should he stop?

Most people don't know the words to the Declaration of Independence, so is it ironic if they're upset if someone wants to just scratch out the English words and write Spanish ones over it?

-Rudey

No, your first two analagies were grasping and irrelevent. Your most recent analogy -- The Declaration of Independence -- gets closer to the mark, but still doesn't hit it since translation, even editorial, politically-bent translation, is not the same as scratching out the English words and writing Spanish ones over them. The Declaration of Independence has been translated and borrowed from as the inspiration for other documents quite a few times.

Unlike The Declaration of Independence, a national anthem, by its very nature, is intended to be memorized. But more to the point, when was the last time you heard Rosanne, 'N-Sync, Whitney Houston, or the list could go on and on, butcher The Declaration of Indendence? I'm trying to remember the last time I heard the national anthem performed with some amount of respect at a ball game.

Irony, on the other hand, is quite relevent to why I have a hard time taking those decrying the insult of Nuestra Himno seriously. You can take them seriously all you want to, but I'll pass.

Not grasping at all. You posted about not having rights because you didn't know something. As for this issue, you can pass if you'd like but many of us don't want to. And if you do pass, it's strange that you're on here telling us that we have no right to be upset or at least going on about yourself not caring.

And if any of those singers don't sing it well, I'm sure quite a few members of the normal public wouldn't sing well either. I'm no singer while you might be in a music fraternity and be a great singer and play a mean obo. I don't think anyone gave up any right to feel offended at the alteration of the anthem (not even a translation) just because they don't sing well or have listened to bad singers.

-Rudey

MysticCat - I hope you find this as funny as I do.

Good Lord, Rudey, chill. I'm sorry that rhetorical facetiousness is lost on you.

But if you're going to be so literal, then at least do as you are so fond of advising other people: go back and read what I said, and notice how what you attribute to me doesn't match up with what I actually said. I have referred to "rights" exactly once in this thread, and when I did, it had nothing to do with "not knowing something."

What I said about rights was: "I'm of the opinion that by silently allowing countless celebrities to butcher the national anthem at sporting events over the last few decades, and by even applauding such horrors, Americans have forfeited the right to complain about anything anyone does to the national anthem." Would you understand it better if instead of saying "forfeited the right" I said "lost the moral highground"? "Lost credibility"? By applauding disrespect or even allowing it to go unchallenged, we lose our credibility when we later accuse others of disprespect.

My comments about people not even knowing the words of the national anthem were tied to the suggestion that Nuestro Himno is not a word-for-word translation but rather pushes an agenda. The point is how do people know that the second verse is not a translation -- direct or composite of parts of various original English verses -- if they don't know the English verses to begin with? One Harris poll showed that a majority of those polled can't even get the words to the first verse right.

Quote:

As for this issue, you can pass if you'd like but many of us don't want to. And if you do pass, it's strange that you're on here telling us that we have no right to be upset or at least going on about yourself not caring.

Not strange at all, and I'm not sure that one or two comments constitutes "going on," but let me rephrase it for you: Whether you have good cause or not, you certainly have a right to be upset. I have a right to think you sound like an idiot, and you can't take that right away from me.

Quote:

And if any of those singers don't sing it well, I'm sure quite a few members of the normal public wouldn't sing well either. I'm no singer while you might be in a music fraternity and be a great singer and play a mean obo. I don't think anyone gave up any right to feel offended at the alteration of the anthem (not even a translation) just because they don't sing well or have listened to bad singers.

I know quite a few veterans who are not musicians themselves and who would disagree with you. I've listened to enough of them grumble when the national anthem is "performed" at ball games to know that it's not the ability of the musician but the lack of respect in the performance that offends them.

andOh, I do. Ironic even.

If English becomes the official language of the US, does that mean everybody has to learn it? [/facetious comment]