You are killing me Psychtau2. You are absolutely killing me.

Every meeting that an organization holds is alcohol free. Every initiation is alcohol free. Every school workshop is alcohol free. Every class the members share is alcohol free. Every time they sit to lunch in the school cafeteria its alcohol free. Every interaction in the halls . .. etc . .. you get the point.

Our members have no problems socializing with each other . . . sober. Most of their interactions are sober.

However, at social events that traditionally and culturally have alcohol . . people like to have alcohol present.

Alcohol reduces stress and increases social interaction. Alcohol reduces artificially imposed inhibitions. Alcohol is a hell of a social lubricant for many people.

Alcohol can help people dance that don't dance. Alcohol enables shy people to talk to members of the opposite sex.

We tend to want alcohol present at events that traditionally have alcohol involved and that encompasses people outside our specific organziation.

Psychtau2, you seem to take the viewpoint that alcohol is some evil . . maybe a necessary evil . . but an evil nontheless. Why do you view it so?

Alcohol is a value neutral component to a social event. As such . . why is it bad to have it present?

If you are uncomfortable with alcohol you don't have to drink. If you and your friends think that alcohol weakens your friendship . . you don't have to drink.

But why should the rest of us be denied access to alcohol if we want it?

And how does it weaken our bonds, our friendships, our quality of life?

Does it do that just because you believe it weakens your bonds, friendships, and life quality?


Sorry about the rambling, but its 5am . . sigh . .

PS: what happened to psychtau1?

I am seriously going to frame this post because OMGWTFBBQ I think this is the ONLY time I'm ever going to agree with James.

Alright...alright...so we agree to disagree....But let me state some background info for my posts:

1. Alcohol in and of itself is not evil. I imbibe often.
2. Yes, college students drink. I did.
3. My earlier posts was a response to someone else's comment that at least one of the Penn State sororities apparently believe that no other fraternity would want to attend a social/mixer with them unless alcohol is available. Presumably because it won't be fun.
4. I have seen chapters that are totally dysfunctional together when the alcohol isn't present (granted, this is not every single chapter. But I've seen this). Very few consistently show up to meetings or ritual, no one hangs out together...they literally don't know what to do with themselves at an event where alcohol isn't present. When they have to be at a "dry" event, they pregame beforehand. When you observed the overall situation, you could see that one common denominator there was alcohol. They became totally different people when it was present. It was kinda painful to watch. Sure...alcohol is a social lubricant and maybe each person in that chapter was so socially inept that's what they needed in order to interact with others. However, I don't think that just because "college students drink" (which is a fact that I'm not arguing) doesn't mean we can't continue to have conversations with them...encourage them to think outside the box...talk about alternatives...show them that they don't always need that "social lubricant"....give them tools to increase their social skills...teach them how to be responsible. When you are an educator or work with students you are always having these types of conversations. I thought we could have one of those here as well.
5. It's probably hard to understand where I'm coming from unless you have seen and experienced what I have...just like it's hard to understand where you're coming from because I haven't seen or experienced what you have.
6. And no matter what....no matter how many times people tell me "college students drink. If you can't deal with that, maybe you shouldn't be dealing with them"...I refuse to dismiss the fact that FOUR college students from my small school went to the hospital for alcohol poisioning from the same party on the same night simply by saying "college students drink". I can deal with college students drinking. I can't deal with them dying.
7. Honestly, (at least for my groups I work with) I wish that it was easier and cheaper to have Third Party Vendor events instead of BYOB. Third Party takes some of the pressure off of the chapters in regards to controlling/securing the alcohol, deciding when to cut people off, intervening safely with extremely drunk guests, security at doors, etc. I think chapters can have more fun at those types of events.
8. The "PsychTau" screename messed up and wouldn't let me log in (several months ago) and so I just went to "PsychTau2". However, I think one of my computers still has "PsychTau"
cookied because sometimes it shows up.

There's a lot more background information/observations I have made, but this would get entirely too long to type it all here. My opinions are based on my observations...not scientifically conducted research. They are also affected by the area of the US I have lived in. Had I lived/gone to school/worked somewhere else I'm sure I would have seen different things that would affect my opinions.

I WANT my students to enjoy college and have fun and drink if they want to. That's fine. BUT...I expect them to not be stupid and to keep themselves and each other safe. I'd rather have conversations about safe alcohol use with them than "micromanage" every event they have.

PsychTau

i'm going to jump in here and agree with psychtau. i, like her, work on campus. i also advise greeks....at a rather small, rural campus.

i see her point. I talk to students ALL THE TIME whose life seems to revolve around alcohol. convesations start with "at this party...." "there's a party....." "my guys won't come if there's no alcohol" and so on.

i have nothing against alcohol. i even like it and have had a few stupid drunk moments in the last year and half. yes, i agree with a lot of the things james said. you just need to see our point of view when we are talking to these students day in and day out and alcohol pops into about 80% of our conversations, especially when it involves some sort of out of class social activity.

heck, there have been some in class moments too. students go to class drunk, they go to meetings drunk, they go to work drunk, they come to visit me drunk (not often, but a couple of times and not just at my current campus). and they are at parties drunk, they go to the bars and get drunk, etc. there are plenty of opportunities for them to drink and socialize with members of the other sex, so to complain that for ONE NIGHT for just a few hours, they cannot drink and make such a big freakin' deal about it is STUPID.

i don't think alcohol is evil. like many things, it is bad when consumed in excess. i just don't understand why students complain so much about not being able to drink like 5-10 nights of the year when they can pretty much drink every other night of the year.

For those calling BS on the A Phi rules, she's not that far off. Generally speaking, when the girls in the chapter I advise have a party, the security is responsible for checking IDs and it's the company's responsibility -- plus the responsibility of the sober sisters in the chapter-- to make sure people don't drink underage. However, the only parties liable in this case are the bartenders and security companies.

Now, I can't say for sure whether her chapter uses sober sisters and practices appropriate Watchcare (not going to argue about it publicly), but I think my sister is on the right track about explaining how they handle RM issues with third party vendors. Suffice it to say, our International office is very clear on what is and what is not allowed, and it sounds to me like they're following our rules. She may just not be explaining them clearly.

(Sometimes being the advisor of a Canadian chapter is challenging. When it comes to drinking, this is one instance when I jump for joy that we're in Canada).

Yes, our chapter does always have four sober sisters at every party/formal/hayride, any event with alcohol. The job of our sober sisters is basically to keep an eye out on all the girls and if someone gets TOO drunk, they have the authority to order them to leave the party. They're also supposed to be the ones to call for help if that is ever needed (which it never has been).

My chapter was under fire last year for risk management issues and hazing, and trust me, we do everything by Alpha Phi standards now, because if not, our charter is revoked.

The bars use their own bouncers, and it is up to them to allow girls in according to their IDs. We generally have our parties at bars that are 21+, and when this is the case, underage girls get a wristband so they can not drink at the party and are ordered to leave once the party is over and the bar is open to the public.

I'm just curious, honest question, but if you have sober sisters who job is presumably to prevent underage drinking, if some one does drink, doesn't the sorority have some liability then? By providing sober sisters does that assume responsibility? Just curious.

Saying the sorority isn't liable isn't really truthful in any of these circumstances. You can bet your house that if something happened, the group would be a named party in the lawsuit. Whether or not they are liable would be a matter for a jury to decide. So these false senses of security and passing off the liability to the bar are just that, false. If a sorority sponsored the event, that would be more than enough to establish a prima facie case, and enough to get the sorority as a party in the trial.

Thanks! That's kind of what I've been wondering about.
:)
E

We've seen suits on these pages where everyone from an organizations headquarters staff to the parents of individual participants have been named.

There is no way that I've heard of to completely cover your organization -- or yourself for that matter.

The best you can do is to reduce the liability as much as possible by making the right rules and decisions and following them.

That last part is often the problem.

Additionally, if you're following the rules, your liability insurance covers you. If you do not follow the rules, your life is a financial disaster, possibly forever.

Miami University's Greek Affairs office started to use these either my junior or senior year. We bought the wristbands from greek affairs and then we had the third party vendor use them for those over 21. A lot of the bars uptown used them and Greek Affairs saw that and decided to implement that policy as well. It worked out really well. ADqtPiMel can update us on whether they are still using them.

OMG that is not at all what I was saying, I was listing the things the girls were giving up... ONE being no alcohol for the semester and TWO (completely individual from ONE) they had been dropped by a fraternity partner b/c the boys said they were "up and coming" and being associate with the girls new name would "bring them down".

and James whoever you are... you are my hero!!!! ;)

What she said. aphidancer, unless you're a Penn State Phi Mu, I'd STFU. If I ever found out that a non-member was speaking on behalf of my Fraternity, I'd be apeshit -- regardless if what was being said was true.