Maybe she means that she was forced to do this as some sort of initiation.

I guess it's just tradition, and we've always had fun doing it, so it was never second guessed. I remember when I was going through initiation myself, and we were out there and a cop drove by, and those with beers (a couple members, we don't allow pledges to drink during initiation) raised them to the cop and the cop just kind of smiled and waved. So I guess at best it completely depends on your perception... and each person's will be different.

But now, of course, we have to change things around. Even though we're not in IFC anymore, we're still following all their rules...

I'm not sure why I keep coming back to this thread and arguing with you. (And I think maybe I'm spending too much time on GreekChat because I always seem to be around when you post...)

OK so let's go back and review the facts. Your original statement:
Now you add in:
So if it's tradition, then it's not like the PLEDGES all of the sudden decided to get up early in the AM and exercise. This fantastic idea was obviously brought to the group by an older member who had done it in the past. What if the pledges had said, "No, actually, I don't really feel like getting up early and doing pushups in the yard in front of God and everybody?" Don't make it out to be some wonderful kind of voluntary activity when it becomes clear that this was an expected part of Initiation Week.

And you've also got guys drinking beer on the front lawn (but NOT the pledges, because heaven forbid they HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS BROTHERS). That sends a really nice message, don't you think? Particularly if this was early in the morning, as your "tradition" suggests. The fact that a cop didn't seem to be bothered by it doesn't really matter. To be honest, although a lot of states are dealing with hazing laws right now, it's not a matter that the police are going to deal with unless people are dying. What if someone's mom was driving by? Would you raise your beer up to wave hey to her? Like, "Oh hey, Mom, we're just sitting out in our front yard getting drunk and doing some sit-ups!"

You are hardly convincing anyone here that what you were doing was an innocent unity-building activity. Here's a shovel. Keep digging that hole, homey.

Can we define some terms here?

Forced = Initiates: "Pledges always do sit-ups on the front lawn. DO THEM!" (And, the pledges are afraid not to.)

Coerced = Initiates: "Pledges always do sit-ups on the front lawn." (And, the pledges are afraid to disappoint/afraid of repercussions.)

Voluntary = Pledges: "Hey, can we do sit-ups on the front lawn?" (Proper response: "No, that would not be wise as it may look like hazing.")

In my opinion, forced and coerced are equally bad, because the only right response is to do what you're told. They're both psychologically harmful.

I'm really applying this directly to the sit-ups situation, since people could get hurt doing this. What if one of the pledges were too afraid to come forward and say, "I have a serious heart condition," and he dies doing those sit-ups.

WOW, am I really Missing something here?:rolleyes:

This seems Like I did they will type mentality.

Now, if We as Greeks did this, the fit hits the shan!

Oh, I see, two different statuses here.:eek:

CarolinaCutie, Nay, You are not wrong, just aghast at the BS.:)

preciousjeni, True your above Post!:)

Hope I read these posts right before I Get Reamed! :rolleyes:

broomstick man, I love you, :D Your pledging sounds like what goes on at my campus. We have the "no harm, no foul" theory, it's worked for over 125 years so why not use it some more, eh? I ditto on the cops statement, hell, I and my lil sis had our pledges out one night on the far side of the campus when a cruiser came by. Once we told them we were on activity they laughed and said they wished they could stay. Then of course they told us to call the station in case we got hung up in the mud :D

CarolinaCutie - maybe the beer rule is because pledges normally come in underage anyway? A lot of GLO's here have that same rule, but then again, they also have the "no sex" rule also, heh.

Man, this post made me sound really bad :)

Yes, pledges normally come in underage- but I'd guess that even 21+ pledges aren't allowed to drink. And initiated members who aren't 21 yet? Allowed. And that is just not OK.

YOUR CHAPTER is different because you are a local organization. As long as you are not violating any state hazing laws (or not getting caught), you're free to do whatever you want. National organizations (of which Alpha Delta Phi is one) affiliated with NIC/NPC do not have those freedoms. We also have national standards to abide by. Obviously, broomstick's chapter wasn't thinking too clearly, and IFC no longer recognizes them as a result. It's fine to go by the "no harm, no foul" theory if you've got no one else to answer to.

If I saw a group exercising in their front yard and someone else watching while drinking a beer in my neighborhood, I'd be really weired out. Who the hell does that? Why on earth would you even think of doing that on a campus!?