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-   -   Evolution on "trial" in Kansas (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=66168)

GeekyPenguin 05-03-2005 09:56 PM

There is a particular religious university located in my city that will not hire biology professors who believe in evolution.

I think this is partly hilarious and partly sad. I was taught in Catholic grade school that evolution was set in process by God, and I was taught in public school that the most popular school of thought regarding humans was that of evolution. My parents taught me the blend I was taught in Catholic schools.

My boyfriend is a pretty staunch creationist but he never had any education on evolution so I don't think he knows any better. ;) We just agree to disagree on this issue.

chideltjen 05-03-2005 10:08 PM

[slight hijack] What is Toast[er] Worship? I'd look it up but I'm lazy and tired. :) [/sh]

I went to both public and private school. I was primarily taught Big Bang/Evolutionary theories up through high school. And then in my theology classes, I learned about Creationism. Best of both I suppose. Of course, my first high school history book had "Jesus Christ" as a key term.

And I'd recommend a good anthopology class to anyone. If anything, you get to study monkeys. :)

honeychile 05-03-2005 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chideltjen
[slight hijack] What is Toast[er] Worship? I'd look it up but I'm lazy and tired. :) [/sh]

I went to both public and private school. I was primarily taught Big Bang/Evolutionary theories up through high school. And then in my theology classes, I learned about Creationism. Best of both I suppose. Of course, my first high school history book had "Jesus Christ" as a key term.

And I'd recommend a good anthopology class to anyone. If anything, you get to study monkeys. :)

I was using the term as a catch-all phrase for worshipping or believing any theory which you wanted to believe. I only know of one Toaster Worshipper, and he's a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

RACooper 05-03-2005 11:36 PM

I just came up with some important questions about Creationism... if it is taught as a valid theory are kids going to have to learn the sky is realy a dome with water above it? That the stars are just lights in this dome? The womam was created as a servant for man? or where did Cain's wife come from - was she his sister?

honeychile 05-03-2005 11:48 PM

I'm going back to sixth-seventh grade for this, but the way I remember it, the teacher proposed several different theories of how the earth came to be. He mentioned that most of us were probably familiar with Creationism, then told us a little about it. Then Evolution, with an explanation. Then some of the more "out there" theories - the only one I can think of right now is that our world could be simply an atom on the big toe of a huge being who lived on another planet. Just the presentations of all theories.

No "this is right, this is wrong", no judgments at all. But then again, most of my pre-college education was non-judgmental and "make it your own" (we were never allowed to quote anything verbatim).

And again, I went to public school, an ultra-liberal one which was a pilot school for the state - no parochial school education whatsoever.

valkyrie 05-04-2005 12:22 AM

I'm just curious, but if you're a Christian who thinks the "theory of creationism" should be taught in public schools, would you be okay with public schools teaching about karma and rebirth? Let's say we call karma a theory, a fancy way of saying "cause and effect" -- is that cool?

KSig RC 05-04-2005 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
I am not arguing anything I am just stating for the last time. Public schools should not teach "theory" (or opinion) as FACT.
Public schools should not teach the "theory of evolution" as a scientific fact.

Connie, you should read my above post, where I explain to you why, in science, sometimes 'theory' becomes approximated as 'fact', and why that's not only a good thing, but a necessary thing.

I don't mean to insult or intrude on your beliefs, but I do think you're not as well-grounded in science as some of us, and these concepts are not exactly intuitive without that grounding.


Quote:

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm just curious, but if you're a Christian who thinks the "theory of creationism" should be taught in public schools, would you be okay with public schools teaching about karma and rebirth? Let's say we call karma a theory, a fancy way of saying "cause and effect" -- is that cool?
This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to get at before - should we include stories from Buddhist or Hindu texts, for completeness? I get the distinct feeling people only want Genesis, which feels wrong to my simple mind.

ADPiZXalum 05-04-2005 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm just curious, but if you're a Christian who thinks the "theory of creationism" should be taught in public schools, would you be okay with public schools teaching about karma and rebirth? Let's say we call karma a theory, a fancy way of saying "cause and effect" -- is that cool?
We do teach about karma, in world history, but not as fact. I also remember hearing about many different types of creation stories, including genesis, in literature classes. It's a complicated issue, I don' tknow that there is a right answer for everyone, because your point is exactly right valkyrie, in the sense that I dont' want every crazy theory known to man taught to my children as fact.

For example: A big issue is prayer in schools. I am a Christian and don't think that it should be allowed because I don't want a toaster worshipper leading my child in some butter and jelly prayer to the knife god. I dont' want a Satan worshipper teacher telling my kid about their religion. This was part of my point in character education....I don't want a teacher telling my children that accepting certain lifestyles or behaviors are ok. I am one that will probably send my kids to private school so I won't have to worry about this issue. NO I don't think Creationism should be taught in schools, but I don't like the other theories either. Maybe they can just skip that part of science class. :confused:

MysticCat 05-04-2005 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
I am not arguing anything I am just stating for the last time. Public schools should not teach "theory" (or opinion) as FACT.
Public schools should not teach the "theory of evolution" as a scientific fact. The End.

I don't know of any schools that are teaching "opinion" as fact; they are teaching evolution as "scientific theory," which is not the same as "opinion."

Part of the problem in the evolution vs. creationism/intelligent design battle is that many creationism/intelligent design proponents either do not know, or are exploiting the fact that their followers do not know, the meaning of "theory" in a scientific context, as KSig RC has pointed out.

In general usage, "theory" does mean "conjecture." In science, however, it doesn't. (Nor does it in music either, for that matter. ;) ) In science, a "theory" is a generalization based on repeated observations and experiments. A scientific theory is a well-tested (and re-tested and re-re-tested), verified hypothesis that takes existing data and explains how processes or events are thought to occur. A scientific theory is based on overwhelming evidence in support of a general principle explaining the operation of certain phenomena or events that take place in the world. Theories can be modified as new information is gained.

The bottom line is that the existence of God cannot be subjected to scientific principles of testing, either to be proved or disproved (Dan Brown in "Angels and Demons" notwithstanding). "We walk by faith and not by sight." Thus, creationism and intelligent design cannot be proven scientifically. While I'm quite in agreement with the crux of intelligent design -- that the universe as a whole and life on earth in particular are simply too complex and precarious to have happened by chance, without a creator -- I don't see how that can be proven scientifically. Therefore, if ID is going to be taught, it should be taught as philosophy or theology, not as science.

Let science do what it is designed to do: answer "how" and "when" questions. The "who" and "why" certainly should be asked as well, but not in science class.

valkyrie 05-04-2005 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
We do teach about karma, in world history, but not as fact. I also remember hearing about many different types of creation stories, including genesis, in literature classes. It's a complicated issue, I don' tknow that there is a right answer for everyone, because your point is exactly right valkyrie, in the sense that I dont' want every crazy theory known to man taught to my children as fact.
Yes -- this is exactly why I think these things should not be taught in pubic schools. You might think "karma" or whatever else is a crazy theory, but I think "god" is a crazy theory. That's why I think it's best for public schools to, as much as possible, stay away from anything that's blatantly religious.

Rudey 05-04-2005 11:36 AM

We studied the bible as a requirement in my classes in high school as well as in college. But then again we were very smart kids.

-Rudey

honeychile 05-04-2005 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by valkyrie
I'm just curious, but if you're a Christian who thinks the "theory of creationism" should be taught in public schools, would you be okay with public schools teaching about karma and rebirth? Let's say we call karma a theory, a fancy way of saying "cause and effect" -- is that cool?
It was taught in my classes; just like everything else, it was taught as theory. I'm probably one of the few non-Hare Krishnas who can recite their little chant.

Other courses were the Bible as Mythology, Contrasting & Comparing Religious Theories, Reincarnation (I forget the whole title), etc.

I'm not saying that I didn't flirt with a lot of the different theories in my life. I just found the One which made the most sense to me. I was also blessed with parents who encouraged me to explore different forms of worship, so by the time I was 16, I had attended 23 different types of services. I can't imagine that a more informed opinion can be formed than by research and actually visiting.

BTW, I just couldn't get into Toaster Worship... ;)

valkyrie 05-04-2005 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by honeychile
It was taught in my classes; just like everything else, it was taught as theory. I'm probably one of the few non-Hare Krishnas who can recite their little chant.

Wow, that's interesting -- I don't remember learning anything related to religion when I was in school. But then, I guess I don't remember much from school anyway. ;)

As a side note, though, I don't know anything about Hare Krishnas, but there are non-Hare Krishnas who believe in the concepts of karma and rebirth, Buddhists being among them (not that I typically worry about what people think, but I don't want anyone thinking I'm a Hare Krishna).

honeychile 05-04-2005 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by valkyrie
Yes -- this is exactly why I think these things should not be taught in pubic schools. You might think "karma" or whatever else is a crazy theory, but I think "god" is a crazy theory. That's why I think it's best for public schools to, as much as possible, stay away from anything that's blatantly religious.
I would normally endorse this, but for the same reason I gave a couple pages ago. So much of different religions & mythologies are part of our culture that, by ignoring them, a schoolkid will be missing out on a lot of fairly necessary idiom.

ADPiZXalum 05-04-2005 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by valkyrie
Yes -- this is exactly why I think these things should not be taught in pubic schools. You might think "karma" or whatever else is a crazy theory, but I think "god" is a crazy theory. That's why I think it's best for public schools to, as much as possible, stay away from anything that's blatantly religious.
I think this is important for people to understand, you think "god" is a crazy theory, just as I think the theory of evolution and big bang is crazy. So why should we teach either one as fact? I don't have a problem teaching the basics as teory, because that's what they are. I dont' know, this is part of the reason why I as a teacher am getting out of the public school system. I can not in good conscience speak of such things that I think are ludicrous, yet I know I can not teach what I believe to be true either.
ps. karma, although called something else, is a biblical principle, and therefore, "technically" I believe in it. :D

ETA: I understand that evolution, as in survival of the fittest, makes perfect sense. I don't however believe the world is millions of years old and that my ancestors are monkeys.


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