:rolleyes:

Does it really matter? KKPsi and TBS are both co-ed and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I doubt you and psi_chotic are even members of KKPsi and are simply trolls (if not the same one). My brothers would not come on here and make such ignorant statements. If you were a brother, you would have a better comprehension of the issue. So next time, read what you've written before hitting that button that says "Submit Reply" - you'll save yourself and my fraternity a lot of disgrace.

KTHNXBYE.

First off this is a discution board..everyone can post there views even if you don't like them ( the troll thing is a little out of place).....

Like I said before I don't care for women in the frat...I was raised different than you...my definitin of who belongs in what are based of of cultural upbringings(sp) when it comes to this issue.......(nothing sexist)

Like I said I would never disrespect or turn my back on a female member they are my fraternity brothers and will be treated as such (that is unless she just don't know anything about the org she's in and is just in it for the letters across her chest but all that can be fixed :D ).....and why would you hear a complaint from a women who has pledged Psi :confused:...now I have heard complaints from TBS members about girls who go Psi...they just dont like it (nothing on a personal level but more on the level of what fraternal organization they should have affiliated themselves with)

The women in Psi and men in TBS thing does go both ways...

As I stated before if you read the problem with the co-ed thing is largly(sp) from an administration stand point at a few places and yes within the band itself when it comes to acceptance as a REAL FRATERNITY in the world outside of the band hall.... some schools wont let you charter both orgs due to the simularities of purpose and their now co-ed status....Like it has been said before "if you have one that provides service to the band then why do you need another organization that does the same thing?"....

and yes i am Psi in good standing and life ......you dont have to like it.....just live with it :p ......I still love you, got nothing personal aginst you and all that realy matters is the work we put into the frat...


and no i am not Psi_cotic
AEA

Well, your motive/identity is suspect when your very first post on this board is of the nature that yours was.

Go back and re-read what Measi posted:Although these organizations have similar purposes, they are different organizations. They are going to attract different types of people. Obviously there is a need for both groups. Guess what - it happens every day in the social greek systems. All of the social GLOs have a similar purpose, but on most campuses there is more than one social GLO. Hmmm, how could that be? Perhaps b/c each group is unique in its own way. One group will be able to offer what another group is lacking.

If your membership numbers are dwindling, don't blame it on TBS for taking your members. Blame it on yourselves for not being able to recruit well.

And by the way, by saying that you don't care for women in KKPsi, you ARE disrespecting the women in KKPsi. I wonder how would you treat a woman who was president of your chapter?

Are you basing your feelings about women being in KKPsi on the fact that KKPsi is chartered as a fraternity? Is it semantics that's causing the problem in your head? Because if so, you need to (again) go back and re-read what I said about my sorority. We are known as Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity. But, we're women-only. But we're a fraternity. Strange. (please note the sarcasm.) I don't know what else could be indicating to you that KKPsi should be for men only.

Besides, Measi already told you: TBS is a fraternity.

Is your chapter co-ed?

This is an issue on which we all will have to agree to disagree. As a founding member of an HBCU single-sex chapter on a campus with a companion single-sex chapter of TBS, I can understand where looseneck4 and psichotic are coming from. Of course, I will welcome a female member of my org the same as I would any other, and I have on many occasions when I have had the opportunity to do so.

But, there are cultural differences that come into play here. Many of us who came through "gender-specific" chapters (both men AND women) support that way of thinking and don't equate it to discrimination or restriction of any person's rights.

I can also understand the way of thinking in the co-ed chapter culture and I certainly wouldn't be the one to dump on that, especially when they are fulfilling the sacred principles of our Fraternity. That's what works for them. However, remember that "single-sex" chapters work for us.

The problem here is when some co-ed chapter members (not all, and not necessarily those posting in this thread) try to imply that those of us who support the "single-sex" chapter way of thinking are somehow discriminatory, uninformed, or "neanderthals" who need to change.

IMHO, there is room for both views in our organization. Just as co-ed chapters are here to stay, so are "gender-specific" ones. We're all here for the same purposes. That's just the way it is.

Just my $19.19.

AEA

blkwebman,

Out of curiosity, what would you do if a woman were to try to become a member at your single-sex chapter?

ETA: blkwebman's post is a lot more respectful and empathetic than is looseneck's. blkwebman was able to rationally state the reasons behind his logic, whereas looseneck came on here and blatantly stated that women in KKPsi is a problem and that TBS should be dissolved. That's just rude and really puts people on the defensive.

AxiD670,

If a female expressed her desire to join KKPsi and not TBS, then I would never seek to prevent her from submitting herself for consideration. To be honest though, I would have to ask her "Why KKPsi and not TBS?" and her answer would probably weigh heavily on the decision to accept her for MIP. Keep in mind, that "Why KKPsi?" would also be a critical question for any male prospective. Since this has never happened before, it's kind of hard to say exactly how things would unfold if it did.

However, I do not believe that this would ever happen (it never has in my undergrad chapter) because of the cultural traditions on campuses like my alma mater (both within the band community and the student population at large). The ladies identify heavily with TBS and the guys identify with KKPsi. And in general, the Greek community generally falls along gender-specific lines.

Now, if a female member of KKPsi who was made in another chapter were to transfer to our school, then I would welcome her just as I would any other member. I know of another single-sex chapter at a nearby school who has a female member that transferred from another school.

When I originally joined TBS, our chapters were also heavily identified in gender roles. There had been some attempts by guys to pledge TBS (and I'm sure, but never had heard of girls attempting to go KKPsi). Honestly, I prefered it that way. The rumblings by brothers that TBS was inferior and therefore should be eliminated was already present, however.

For what it's worth, blkwebman1919--- you appear to have a very healthy (and respectful) attitude about it. It's refreshing.

~ Mel.

To answer your last Q.. my chapter is all male...and 8 times out of 10 will stay that way... things can change(for what ever reason good or bad) and with the way the program is going it just may one day induct a female member......but only by say 1 or 2 members if it ever does ( u have to know the band)........

I mean no disrespect or ill will to any female member past, pressent, or future... its just culturaly I see things different than u and a few of other people....no realy big problem

As for my women in KKPsi being a problem statement I gave my reasons behind it..nothing personal just what is noticed from my side of the tracks.....

As for our TBS chapter it been inactive for the last 10 years due to there being almost no women in the band (all male marching unit ...which is were our KKPsi and TBS operated out of...) weve only recently aquired SAI and M Phi E was not attracting that much attention to itself.....

As for there being a fraternity for women OH WOW!!!!......tell me something i don't know...sorority is a rather a new word to the world.....

When Psi was founded it was made by bandsmen for bandsmen(male fraternity)...but since then things have changed (some from group believes others for legal reasons and then there is the just cause factor.....but changed non the less) all we can do its keep working towards our one collective goal regardless of who has on the letters.....

Re: My opinion.....
 

I know I'm a bit late in jumping into this conversation, but being a brother of KKPsi Alpha, I seem to remember a bit about our band's history and how there were no female members of the OAMC (now OSU) bands at the time the fraternity was founded... so, there is really no way to know how they would have organized had there been women in the band.

This is crazy....
 

Ive seen alot of opinions......ive seen alot of ideas....
Its weird how people can accept their own opinion but wont listen to others.....Im not tryin to persuade you....im just tryin to inform you of my OPINION.......
you know, a DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.......seeing something in ANOTHER LIGHT....
I am not one to cause or fuel discord among my brethren but i do have strong emotions on the subject of my fraternity.
I went through HELL and HIGH WATER to get into this frat. which is more than SOME of you can say for yourselves.(paper..)
YES I AM A BROTHER. and i didnt have to go back to the internet or my pledge book to know my purposes OR my foundation.
I have no problem with coming together for oen central cause for the betterment of bands.......It's when I try to incorporate the other aspects of our frat. into the mix and then there's an obvious difference. SHE isnt just one of the guys......WHY?......cause she's not a guy. NOT and NEVER will be.....Im not able to look at a female and view her as one of the guys....and i know im not the only one. Frankly, that causes our bruhs to have to go out and join other orgs. to get the TRUE BROTHERHOOD. I dont care about Webster's definition. You will never look at your blood sister and call her you brother.
The founding fathers are the parents of our wonder fraternal family.....in which, brothers are created.........You would be a liar to say that a male wouldnt be your first assumption. This is the way it was meant, and this is the way it should be.
PROOF:
Bohumil Makovsky was a 33rd degree Mason. Research Masonry.......
There are 2 dominant orgs. = O.E.S. & Freemasonry
O.E.S. is a Co-ed organization but Boh wasnt apart of that.....
He was in FREEMASONRY......which is a BROTHERHOOD.....and consists of only male members........
and if you think that his involvment with masonry has nothing to with it....then you dont even know why our colors are Blue and White!!!.....Blue & White are the two main Masonic colors...
Read it and weep...
I love yall ...........AEA.........

Re: This is crazy....
 

Hey! Look who finally decided to join us again!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Pot, meet kettle.

I'd like to know who in this thread you think is a "paper" member.

To what aspects of our fraternity could you possibly be referring? I'm a female brother, and I was able to participate in everything. We obviously weren't the only chapter that is able to do so.

No one said you have to.

Umm, are you sure about that? How do you know they're not joining other orgs to find one that is social in nature? That's certainly what I did. Just b/c you're in KKPsi doesn't mean you can't be in other orgs as well.

Did you even bother reading any of the previous posts? So what you're saying is, then, that when you hear of Alpha Xi Delta National Fraternity, you're going to assume it's a group for men?

This, really, has nothing to do w/ anything. If you want a history lesson, see this wonderful post by Infidelicious (thanks to you, by the way! :D ):No, you don't, b/c it's obvious from your views that you do not welcome me as your brother.


I just don't understand why you would join a co-ed organization, knowing beforehand that it was co-ed, and then complain about it being co-ed after you've been initiated. :confused: If it's that big of an issue to you, don't just piss and moan about it - do something! Why don't you call up Nationals and tell them you don't want any more women in your organization?

Re: This is crazy....
 

Brother while I don't necessarily agree with your line of reasoning, I was with you until you said that. Seems to me someone either A. HAS A CASE OF NEOITICE or B. NEEDS TO STEP BACK. Who the hell made you the Official Pledgemaster of Kappa Kappa Psi National Honorary Band Fraternity Inc. Seriously with that line of talk, you'd better be ready and ABLE to IDENTIFY, and CONFIRM, every Brother that has crossed into this Fraternity. The ULTIMATE POINT HERE IS: You need to get the HELL off your high horse, because it's been ridden to death.


Well hello, I wasn't aware that one of our founding father's nicknames was "PSI-CHOTIC02". First of all ASSumptions make an ass out of everyone. Second of all the National Archive Team has found letters by Brother "A." Andrew Frank Martin that without a doubt show he and many brothers at the time were open to allowing women into the Fraternity.

i know i am extra late in this whole convo...


but alpha chapter kkpsi, i have a question:


why is there tbs in the first place then?

if the founders were all for co-ed membership to begin with, why wasn't it co-ed from the jump once it traveled to schools that DID have female memebers?

27 years is a long time to try and say no women were around at ANY school the fraternity chartered at (that reffering to 1919 to 1946)


as a soror of tau beta sigma, at an all female chapter, i do have to say that i can see both sides of the fence.

but i also have to look at the welfare of my organization. when i hear rumors that in 50 years there will be no tbs and we will have to be associate kkpsi, i have a problem. when i see kkpsi having at times 4 times the amount of colonies than my org at schools with both men and women in the band programs, i worry. there should be no reason that SEVERAL people from the 6 active districts (cause i know of no one in that international one lol) tell me that when their school chartered the petitioning members were told they only needed kkpsi because it's be easier on paperwork, i get really pissed when i hear that.


i can only think of ONE school that has tbs but no kkpsi, that isn't in that situation due to kkpsi being suspeded.

if we are to truly be brother/sister orgs (which is what i learned wava was told to form by the members of kkpsi, a sister org), then we cant sit here and pout about dumb ish...but we also can't be blind to stats when they are in our faces...

I never said that it was widely accepted but it was on the minds of people at the time. And many prominent Brothers were for allowing women, but they wouldn't be able to do anything untill the other chapter resumed after the war. Since TBS was already created by that time, the point was moot.

As for the TBS vs KKPsi when colonizing it's really a perception on the DIRECTOR OF BANDS part. And as we all know both organizations exist by the DIRECTOR OF BANDS will and only their will. In other words it's the DIRECTOR OF BANDS choice. National Headquarters can only send paper work for both organizations and beyond that it's really down to what the DIRECTOR OF BANDS wants, PERIOD. That's not to say it's right but I'm sure many a female DIRECTOR OF BANDS has made the same decision and possibly chose Kappa Kappa Psi. Choose is the KEY WORD, it's something called freewill.

well if the point was mute, why go co ed in the first place, and dont say title 9 because there are hundreds of orgs who stayed single sex...

and im not talking about what the director of bands says..im talking about when they are TOLD that its easier to just bring one rather than both...