I think a lot of studies have linked the disappearance of "in loco parentis" as one of the major contributing factors to binge drinking...but I will defer to Delt Alum on that one - he's talked on that point before.

But your first claim doesn't make sense...even though a lot of deaths, injuries, and other risk management risks are related to alcohol, you'd STILL advocate making the consumption easier for minors?

You also asked if anyone has that stats before the age was raised...when the federal government threatened to withhold matching highway funds, they did so precisely because at that time, as well as today, too many under-21 aged DUI accidents were injuring and killing people. While I firmly believe this should have been up to each individual state to determine, the federal government forced the issue with the carrot and stick approach. To revert back to the old under-21 laws would make the problem even worse.

It's not a culture issue, it's not a "boys will be boys" issue. It's a safety issue.

Now, am I naive to believe that keeping the law as it is will simply make binging and it's associated costs go away? Of course not. However, what I would recommend is more personal responsibility and accountability into their behavior, and the example each individual sets. Isn't that what fraternities, in many cases, were founded to help foster?

Facts and figures can be brought up every day to point out certain % and figures.

Not that We on GC can solve the problems,Yes, we have all brought up many facts and figures, but I think it boils down to the Egg and The Chicken or the Forbidden Fruit.

Parental inclusion cannot be denied of coure. Not point to fingers, but the kids of today are told no and will do it anyway. I always did and knew I would suffer the results. Beleive me, sometimes harsh.:eek:

It seems that We as Greeks and Our Organizations can try to train as much as we want, but to what end? We are paying for it now of course.

Do we go against some of the Mores' of society? Do We as Adults tell and not educate, does it help?


I wish I had a true answer.

But Greek Organizations trying to put preasure for Alcohol Changes, it is still a resounding no. We have enough problems.

Can We lead by example? Well, no, I really dont think so for the short term.

As much as I feel the nation would benefit from lowering the drinking age, I feel the Greek Community would receive negative PR for such a campaign.

Despite overwhelming attempts to register 18-24 year olds to vote, this age group turns out in underwhelming numbers at the polls. As a result, legislation and lobbying for the benefit of this age group is under-represented.

I understand the desire to lower risk management issues, and I think it would be smart to lower the drinking age (if you can vote at age 18 and buy a pack of cigarettes; why not a beer?), but I feel that if Greeks supported an effort to get America's Youth VOTING it would be seen as a very positive motion.

I think that drinking is fine as long as it's done moderately and you don't have a huge risk management scenario on your hand.

I think that Greeks need to identify their "risk" chapters and decide whether they should be there.

I think that Greeks should actually try and take the spotlight off of themselves and put it onto university administrations. Let them deal with the problems. If this is that deep rooted into university cultures then this is not something we have the time or the resources to tackle.

And when the universities are able to offer safer environments, then we should return to those former "risk" schools.

-Rudey

That is a tremendously inaccurate and misleading statement. Chapters that want to behave like "animal houses" have seen an increasingly strained relationship. Chapters that want live up their values and ideals have seen an increasing amount of support from their HQs. The latter has become the dominant type of chapter in many GLOs.

As far as James original post, as much as I like James, the idea is terrible. If GLOs were to advocate a reduction in the drinking age, it would reinforce negative stereotypes. It would also necesitate a cultural change that would cause a regression in current fraternity programming and values.

I think the 21 YO drinking age is stupid, but if its going to be challanged, it needs to be challenged without the involvement of GLOs.

I knew someone would take that the wrong way, so let me rephrase. A lot of times, people are afraid to go to advisors or national HQ with issues because they're afraid it'll get turned around and used as a way to punish the chapter - even if that chapter isn't doing anything wrong. I can't tell my advisor about ONE pledge that goes out with her non-sorority friends and drinks too much, because the whole chapter will be under the microscope for drinking. I can't tell them about the sister who keeps falling asleep in class, because I'll be accused of overprogramming and stressing out the sisterhood. I can't tell them about the pledge who cries in her room every day, for reasons she has yet to tell us, because I'll be accused of hazing her.

And the advisors and HQs don't want to do this, I'm sure, but they hear so much about the costs of RM that rather than do a thorough investigation it's easier to punish the chapter and cover their butts. That's what I meant.

If you have a great relationship with your HQ and advisors and can tell them everything, that's wonderful - but I think to say that any chapter that doesn't isn't living up to its "values and ideals" is an outright lie.

We are one of the few nations with such a high drinking age. Why? You can join the military, fight for your country and possibly die for your country but you can't have a drink? Good point but guess what? I hope we never see the drinking age decreased. Too many immature kids here in the U.S.

On the other hand, if we all had GLO's that made the chapters become dry on some arbitrary day (say, 9/1/04), I imagine it would have an effect on recruitment. Sadly, it would probably be a downward slide.

Since I was seeking an organization to join 30 years ago, I would've sought out a fraternity anyway. In other words, booze wasn't the deciding factor for my joining--I could've stayed in the dorms and gotten sloshed, for what that's worth.

Universally creating dry organizations would also send a major message to the general public that only sees us as nothing more than living examples of "Animal House"/"Old School".

Later-
BF

Ha, one has to be from the Kansas Area to Remember Carry Nation. A diminitive @ 5' 4" lady with a hatchet who went into Kansas Saloons and beat the hell out of the Bars with her little AXE!. Hated Demon Rum (ALL BOOZE).

Nicklc24, I and others agree with you whole heartedly on that issue.

As I mentioned as did some others, The Chicken and Egg, Forbidden Fruit. Cant , will and going to.

The Great American Experiment as the Europeans called Phroabition in the USA which mad Millions for Alphonse Capone/Broughphrom Family in Canada and The Kennedy Clan from Scotland.. Yes JFK Family clan. White Horse Scotch to be just one of them.

Die, for your Country, Vote for Our Leaders, but dont drink Booze!

Socializing is a very big part of American/Canadian life style, cut out two things, Alcohol and Tobacco which have some of the highest taxes, where does that money come from?

What were the first bigest cash and products of this Country any way? Da, Yep You got it. !!!

Let us bite the hand that feeds us, put me out of business and feed on the pitence of Federal Wlfare!:rolleyes:

boz, sometimes you are so droll about things, not sure how to take you. Thank god Mama took Pics!:)

Name one GLO that has distrust and poor communications as part of its "values and ideals."

I don't think you'll find one, but you will find chapters with loads of "traditional" age college students who are learning how to be mature adults and who feel that advisors at HQ are like mean and disapproving parents... so the maturing traditional age collegians are more likely to hide a problem than communicate openly... for fear they will be disciplined and punished, like a child being sent to his room. This lack of communication leads to mistrust and a chapter that can't communicate is looked at more closely, and yes, is more likely to screw up, because they've grown afraid to communicate even the smallest things-- like approving a local event.

You know what, if you want to lower the age, how about this..... I think we should not allow greeks until they are 21, they can pledge at 20 so by the time they cross they will be 21. then you dont have to worry about the alcohol issue :D
By the way in france legal age is 18 but they are more MATURE, can handle it and know their limit as opposed to here in USA with so much AA and drunk driving. Imagine if they could drink younger. Many people sneak alcohol at home or go to Mexico or Canada to drink, do they do it in moderation? no they get drunk and get themselves trouble with the law or their parents. I am speaking in general. I am opposed to bringing the drinking age down, I also think we should raise the smoking age to 21.

This really depends on the GLO. Many GLOs simply lack the resources to provide positive and constructive reform. GLOs with the resources to reform chapters aren't looking to bust chapters. They're looking to help them.

I was my chapters VP when we had the last administration permitted open keg party (36 kegs, 3,000+ people, no fights.) I was there at the time of transition and it was frustrating. FSU passed rules that were inspired by my chapter. When kegs were banned from fraternity houses, one brother parked next to the house with an ancient VW convertable that had a keg in the back seat. A month later, FSU passed the "adjacent property rule." After several friday afternoon golfing excursions through campus, FSU banned golf on campus. We found other things to do, and other ways to do them. As I look back on my undergraduate years, there are a lot of great memories, and there was a lot of alcohol. There aren't that many great memories that involved alcohol. When America's age of litigation started, everything changed. We're not going back to the way that it was before. If fraternities have to have alcohol to exist, than they don't deserve to exist. Besides, most NIC organizations do allow alcohol under restrictive conditions.

Chapters that have had poor communications with their fraternities did not pop up into existance after the liability insurance era emerged. They have always been around, and traditionally the area of contention was not alcohol. Sometimes poor communications is the fault of HQ staff. Sometimes the blame lies with actives. Sometimes its both. Usually it lies with stubborn advisors who don't want change. These advisors poison the atmosphere for communications between HQ and chapters, and are there to keep it poisoned for years on end. When communications sour between a chapter and HQ, and there are no alumni that try to keep Hatfield-McCoy style hostility alive, the hostility fades and good communications and relations eventually are restored.

Russ, the hammer hit the nail on the head.

While LXA has I think the largest staff at IHQ and ELCs touring the country to make visits, it is still a tight situation.

It is very exasperating for not only the Active Chapter but the IHQ staff when things go sour.

The point is, that Chapters of respective Greek Organizations are expected to follow the Covenets of said Organizations.

When that doesnt happen is when not only the Chapter, The Organization, but, all of GreekDom that get harmed!

While, We have more resource

Russ, the hammer hit the nail on the head.

While LXA has I think the largest staff at IHQ and ELCs touring the country to make visits, it is still a tight situation.

It is very exasperating for not only the Active Chapter but the IHQ staff when things go sour.

The point is, that Chapters of respective Greek Organizations are expected to follow the Covenets of said Organizations.

When that doesnt happen is when not only the Chapter, The Organization, but, all of GreekDom that get harmed!

While, We have more resources, in may cases, it is not enough.

Many more Organizations have less so it makes it even harder.

So, the onus falls many times on the Chapters them selfs.


Check out other Greeks Web Sites and see what staff they have. It is somewhat eye opening.:eek: