Honeychile, I think the statistics bear this out for serious long term relationships also . . . but statistics are funny things.

I have some frends that are serial monogamists, and even though the person they are with changes up, their routines, patterns and behaviors in the relationship are so consistant its like they are just dating the same person over and over with a different face. Its like they lose the individuality.

Amazing.

I agree that there are some dealbreakers - I just think it has to be a little more extreme than what most seem to leave for these days. Abuse - of course, get out of there. Some of the other things you mention, however, may be able to be dealt with. If you really love someone, I would think that you would usually be inclined to want to first try to help them through their substance abuse or financial difficulties with some professional counseling and support.

As for the kids vs. no kids or career as a first priority, I simply see those as things that should be discussed and sorted out prior to reaching the altar. Marriage isn't something to rush into and I think if people took their time getting to know each other, it might cut down on the divorce rate a little.

No, some of the things I mentioned can't be dealt with when they are in severe forms. I don't know how familiar you are with the terrible impact of addiction on a family. When someone is overdrawing from your account, selling the family car, or doing such things just to get that next fix--there's only so much you can take. Don't forget--sometimes substance abuse does spiral into abuse or infidelity.

The same goes for financial issues--I have seen marriages fall apart because one person's overspending. It's not simply, "oh, she's just thrifty"--it's that one member of the couple spends way beyong the couple's means, putting them on the brink of homelessness or bankruptcy. These things happen--and there are things you may not see in dating (because of lack of money or whatever) that you see very clearly when you're married.

Sometimes those things ARE discussed in detail prior to marriage. People change. I never realized this when I wanted to become an art history professor, but to seriously thrive in your field, to have a job where your health care is actually paid for, where you don't have to worry about getting fired the next year or having your funding run out--sometimes family has to be sacrificed. I have a lot of professors who have chosen not to start families for that reason; when I heard their stories, I knew there was no way I could do as well in my career as I wanted to and still have a family. Sometimes people don't realize the extent of how much a super-star career in academia, medicine, or the law means to your outside life until you're already married.

Same thing with kids. Just because you feel one way at 22, 25, 30, whenever doesn't mean you'll feel that way even a year later.

Basically--you can talk talk talk all you want. It doesn't mean that what you say or feel at one point won't change. Ideally--couples change and grow together. Sometimes they don't.

I think divorce happens way too often in this country, but I'm not going to go and say that it can be avoided almost all the time. Your views are highly simplistic and don't take into account the scope of the human experience.

If you're talking about living together, yes, the 85% statistic stands. One of the best ways of making sure that your marriage won't work is by living together first.

First marriages have a 48% chance of failing.

Thank you.

Some people jump to judgement...We DID discuss these things prior to marriage...AT LENGTH. In excruciating detail. I did not rush into anything.

Like munchkin has said about careers in academia, my husband fell victim to this exact thing. He will have his PhD in less than a year. The doctorate and lifestyle that he saw looming were at severe odds. Did this cause him to cheat...no, he did that on his own. But his change of heart on the kids and family priorities was exactly as munch explained.

People should not automatically assume that people's failed marriages are based on poor planning or lack of knowledge of anyone's intentions. You know what they say about people who assume...:o

I almost have to laugh at how high and mighty people are with respect to the issue of divorce.

In my opinion, you can get married with the best of intentions but you will never, EVER know what will happen or how things might change. Aside from things that have already been mentioned -- abuse, cheating, substance abuse, etc., more subtle problems can arise. Over time, you may not feel the same way about your spouse as you did at first. You may not feel sexually attracted to him/her any more. I don't think there is any amount of "work" or "counseling" or anything in the world that can make you sexually attracted to someone, or that can make you have feelings for someone that you no longer have. I also don't think you're doing any favors by staying with someone for whom you don't have strong feelings any more -- I would never, ever want someone to be with me even if he's not into me just because he made a vow.

Maybe y'all think it's great to stick it out in an environment where you're not happy and never will be -- more power to you. I just can't imagine living like that, and I fail to see why divorce is such a huge problem.

I think that it is very easy for people to judge when they have not been in a serious relationship or married. People tend to idealize marriage, but sometimes reality is ugly.

Marriages end in two ways-death or divorce. Divorce seems preferable to me. Why spend your life being unhappy?

Many religions offer counseling prior to marriage as a way to test compatibility. The course points out potential problems couples might have in their lives together and how to address them. They teach communication techniques and conflict resolution. This counseling is very successful.

IMO, this is the worst reason people use to justify a divorce. If the only reason someone cares about his/her spouse is sexual attraction, then that person had issues to begin with.

Right, because of course I said the only reason someone should be married is sexual attraction. It's all a part of the big picture that consists of every aspect of a relationship. Some people don't think that sex/sexual attraction is very important, and some do. My point is that if you think it's important and you don't have it, I don't think it's possible to get it back no matter how much you try. If you don't think it's important, then good for you, and hopefully your spouse feels the same way and isn't out banging someone else.

Re-read my post...I didn't say you did say that. What I stated in my post was that, IMO, too many people get divorced because they don't feel that same attraction to their spouse that they did in the beginning. A marriage has to be about more than physical/sexual/etc. attraction. If someone married another person without a sense of companionship or common interests or some other backbone to the union, then of course that marriage is more likely to have problems.

Perhaps the economic consequences of seperation seem too great to leave . . .

But what you are describing is essentially friendship. I think a lot of people stay in relationships that have devolved into mere friendship. Where familiarity and sporadic bursts of affection have replaced romantic love . . .

Where that is the case, do you advocate people stay in the marriage to preserve the friendship or economic union and seek exciting sexual relations outside the marriage?

I think that sex in any relationship should be motivated by much more than a periodic release of tension . . Which is what it often becomes in relationships where the romantic love has faded.

No, just because they fell out of the sexual love doesn't mean they should go outside of the marriage to get it. I believe in marriage and vows, and if the only thing wrong with a particular union is that one doesn't feel the way that he/she felt in the beginning about their sexual relationship...then tough. Those people should look to other things in their marriage to make them happy. I don't think that is a reason to justify divorce.

I want to marry James!

IMHO, anyone who gets married without serious pre-maritial counseling is as dangerous as someone playing with a gun without any prior lessons.

My fiance & I have been in counseling for about a year, and his mother simply cannot understand why we need it "if we both love each other". :rolleyes: Of course, there is nothing "wrong" with her son, he understands all the ins & outs of marriage, finances, children, work, household chore sharing, etc.

If you need a large amount of counseling . . you might want to rethink mariage with that person :)