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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
Hijacked it is!

We are in agreement on so many points. I absolutely agree that the most important thing is to rebuild the fabric and character of the African American community. Assimilation has been a double edged sword, bringing opportunity and, in other ways, destruction of the lynchpins of AfAm society. I believe in our attempts to be like "mainstream" America we have lost our sense of values. We have steadily moved away from the strong family and extended family, routinely put instant gratification above all else and have become thoroughly self centered.

Although I will debate and discuss disenfranchisement, I am not saying this is my priority issue or that I think this is OUR priority issue. But if you ask me about it, I can discuss it and tell you what I think. That does not mean that I would not say that the "bottom line is we need to get ourselves in order." I think we have turned parenting of our kids over to the media, who has them convinced they are supposed to be in Manolo Blahniks and Platinum at 15. Our collective priorities are out of whack. Our house is in great disarray- I absolutely agree with you on that, Soror.

Yes, I know the statistics reflect that Af Am's are being arrested and convicted for crimes at a disproportionately high rate. (I cannot speak as to whether we are committing crimes at a disproportionately high rate.) We should not be committing crimes at all. That does not belie the fact that I do believe that the criminal justice system seeks out Black people to interrogate, arrest and prosecute. While I think that we need to address why we are committing crimes in the first place, I will not stop speaking out against the injustices that do go on in the system. I do not see the things as either/or (either I work on the community or I speak out against the bias)

As to your racial profiling comment- hoe would you determine when it makes sense to be fair and when not. And who it is okay to treat poorly and who not?

See that's the thing...everything is not always fair...Its like this...if I get pulled over because I "fit the profile" of someone...and its not me...assuming there's no physical brutality etc... all I had to deal with was inconvenience. I think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states....I think that's good police work. Just like I think its not wise to NOT pull Arab men out of the line at the AIrport when they fit the profile for the terrorists! Of course I'm generalizing here...but I hope you see my point.

If I have to suffer some inconvenience in the interest of justice...so be it. If you're not carrying drugs on the turnpike or weapons on the plane...why be concerned?

I know there are corrupt cops, judges etc. out there that will just target people because of their race...but I sincerely feel they are in the minority. Bottom line..don't go to a drug infested area driving your Bentley with 86 gold teeth if you don't want to "fit the profile" of someone doing something they aint got not business!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion

Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
See that's the thing...everything is not always fair...Its like this...if I get pulled over because I "fit the profile" of someone...and its not me...assuming there's no physical brutality etc... all I had to deal with was inconvenience. I think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states....I think that's good police work. Just like I think its not wise to NOT pull Arab men out of the line at the AIrport when they fit the profile for the terrorists! Of course I'm generalizing here...but I hope you see my point.

If I have to suffer some inconvenience in the interest of justice...so be it. If you're not carrying drugs on the turnpike or weapons on the plane...why be concerned?

I know there are corrupt cops, judges etc. out there that will just target people because of their race...but I sincerely feel they are in the minority. Bottom line..don't go to a drug infested area driving your Bentley with 86 gold teeth if you don't want to "fit the profile" of someone doing something they aint got not business!

Ohh, that is bad thinking there Sis. Because you fit a profile is no reason to be stopped, inconvenience or harassed. Only in a police state or under Nazi rule is that ever justified. One should only be stopped, searched, and inconvenienced when there is an imminent threat or a crime against someone has been committed in the vicinity. I don't care how many 6 ft 200LB Black males committ crimes. The 75% that don't need'nt be inconvenienced. Is every 30 something white investment broker having their homes ransacked, personal computers absconded, property repossesed because they fit the profile of a mutual fund scammer? Is every suburban teen who cruises the inner city to buy drugs and take back to the 'burbs profiled, stopped, and searched? Hell no!!! As Kimmie said, this does not justify criminal activty, but until everyone is treated similar, we, ourselves cannot put the boot on our own necks. Not only would we be seeing ourselves as our enemies do (I won't say oppressors, because any oppression is self imposed), but we would be complicit in their demonization of us. Stop me when I do something, not because my appearance dictates it. Shoot, I've been stopped on the Jersey Turnpike 9 times!!! Never a ticket, not once. Just for being Black in a late model, expensive car. White middle aged women are the most prolific shoplifters, but they don't get followed around the store and if caught, rarely serve time. We must be careful in applying that broad brush. It often leads to self-hate and the self fulfilling prophecy of if I'm going to be viewed and treated as a criminal, I might as well be one.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion

Quote:

But bottom line, racial profiling is a violation of the Bill of Rights that are designed to protect the civil liberties of everyone, regardless of race, creed, of color. Doggy gave some very real comparisons.

Right now, the ACLU of Minnesota is handling the case of a Black woman who was detained upon arriving at the Mpls airport because she arrived on a red-eye from LA with a carry-on bag. She was stripped searched for drugs. She was stopped (and security admitted it) because of her color, where she traveled from, the time of day she traveled, and because she had a bag. Turns out not only is she a professional Black woman but the daughter of a former Mpls. policeman.

If this had happened to you, would you have considered it just an inconvenience?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion

Quote:

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
Ohh, that is bad thinking there Sis. Because you fit a profile is no reason to be stopped, inconvenience or harassed. Only in a police state or under Nazi rule is that ever justified. One should only be stopped, searched, and inconvenienced when there is an imminent threat or a crime against someone has been committed in the vicinity. I don't care how many 6 ft 200LB Black males committ crimes. The 75% that don't need'nt be inconvenienced. Is every 30 something white investment broker having their homes ransacked, personal computers absconded, property repossesed because they fit the profile of a mutual fund scammer? Is every suburban teen who cruises the inner city to buy drugs and take back to the 'burbs profiled, stopped, and searched? Hell no!!! As Kimmie said, this does not justify criminal activty, but until everyone is treated similar, we, ourselves cannot put the boot on our own necks. Not only would we be seeing ourselves as our enemies do (I won't say oppressors, because any oppression is self imposed), but we would be complicit in their demonization of us. Stop me when I do something, not because my appearance dictates it. Shoot, I've been stopped on the Jersey Turnpike 9 times!!! Never a ticket, not once. Just for being Black in a late model, expensive car. White middle aged women are the most prolific shoplifters, but they don't get followed around the store and if caught, rarely serve time. We must be careful in applying that broad brush. It often leads to self-hate and the self fulfilling prophecy of if I'm going to be viewed and treated as a criminal, I might as well be one.

Yes you're right about painting the broad brush....but are u saying that the incidents where people are unjustly stopped outnumber the people that are justly stopped? And as far as police work..many times a profile is what begins an investigation.. I'm just saying that many times its not just a case of brothas being in the wrong place at the wrong time...a lot of times they are caught up in doing something they shouldn't be... I'm not saying arrest all brothas that fit the profile...but at the same time..I'm not going to act like ALL brothas are innocent and are just being harassed...

I hope no one really thinks there is a way to do things without anyone ever being inconvenienced, unjustly stopped, or made to feel uncomfortable...there is no such perfect institution..especially when it is being carried out by imperfect humans.

Ladygreek...its always easy to point out the extreme situations and say that the whole system is jacked up....just as some do with pledging when someone dies and uses that as a reason to say pledging is evil....How many times on the news do you hear when WHITE policeman do treat BLACK suspects equally and with respect...not often because that's not newsworthy... Don't get caught up in the spin!

But my question to everyone is what solutions do you all have?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion

Quote:

" think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states...."

Here's the thing- there is no criminal profile that is that dead on. Ther is no crime being committed solely by people fitting one description. The statistics do not demonstrate that the actual number of Black people committing crime is substantially higher than the actual number(not percent) of others committing crime. While the number may be disproportionate to our percent of the population, the raw number still is not in our favor. Second, even if 95% of all drug traffickers were Black males (which they are not) that is not the same thing as 95% of Black males being drug traffickers. Racial profiling,, however acts as if the latter statement is the case. I will never concede that law abiding citizens should forgo their rights because they are Black.

Where I live, the Black men in my life are routinley stopped by the police. They are not criminals and are involved in criminal activity in no way whatsoever. What are they? Relatively young (27-35) year old Black men who are successful professionals. They drive nice, late model cars, some expensive. Baltimore City is the "hood"- if they choose to drive through the city to get to work, or to put on a sweatsuit to run errands on a Saturday, I do not find it acceptable that they should be subjected to stops. I simply don't. Growing up, one of my brother's friends was stopped by police once a week. After seeing the documentation of the stops, the police commander from his district (who could probably feel the law suit headed his way) had to intervene and order the patrol men to get it together. He knew ir was nothing more than a racial profile. They were harassing him for being a Black, 17 year old whose parents let him borrow the car on weekends. No other reason to suspect him of doing anything.

It has never been demonstrated to me that racial profiling is the great police tool some like to think it is. And here is why- if you only stop Black people you will only catch Black criminals. If you begin with the ASSumption that Black people commit all the crime and do not look for anyone else to do it, you will find what you are looking for. Doggy's shoplifting example rings so true for me. In college, my girl friends and I drove to Syracuse to go to a real mall. ( Ithaca had none.) In the department store, the sales woman followed us and watched our every move. I am sure she was certain that these four Black girls were there to steal not shop. It would never enter her mind that we could possibly be anything but criminals. Meanwhile, also in her section, a white woman was robbing them blind. We watched her steal 6 articles of clothing. The saleswoman never noticed or thought to notice because to her, we were the"profile." And like Ladygrrek’s story, My cousin was subjected to strip searching when returning to BWI on a class trip to Hong Kong with her MBA program. She was the only Black person on the trip and the only one even questioned, none the less detained and violated. That is more than a mere inconvenience. That was humiliating for her, both the experience and being singled out in front of her classmates as though she had done something wrong. There is a stigma that comes with having been detained by the police, even when they wrong. I have so many anecdotal examples of people being falsely arrested (and in one case convicted) from people I know it is mind blowing.

Of course anyone may be stopped inadvertently but on the basis of a legitimate reason. If all you have is the description of a vehicle like mine, you might stop me. That is perfect logical and good police work. I do believe sometimes people are stopped in this way. Unfortunately, when someone is stopped over and over again and not issued tickets, not found to have done anything at all, not even resembling a wanted person, just being "checked out" for being Black, I think that is a problem.

Some of you posts suggest that you feel our people are truly the criminal element around here, enough so we all are deservedly inconvenienced or harassed. Do you agree with the Black criminal stereotype that is pumped into all of our homes?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
" think its stupid to not pull a car over on the NJ TPK if (hypothetically) 95% of the drug trafficers are black males driving certain cars from certain states...."

Here's the thing- there is no criminal profile that is that dead on. Ther is no crime being committed solely by people fitting one description. The statistics do not demonstrate that the actual number of Black people committing crime is substantially higher than the actual number(not percent) of others committing crime. While the number may be disproportionate to our percent of the population, the raw number still is not in our favor. Second, even if 95% of all drug traffickers were Black males (which they are not) that is not the same thing as 95% of Black males being drug traffickers. Racial profiling,, however acts as if the latter statement is the case. I will never concede that law abiding citizens should forgo their rights because they are Black.

Where I live, the Black men in my life are routinley stopped by the police. They are not criminals and are involved in criminal activity in no way whatsoever. What are they? Relatively young (27-35) year old Black men who are successful professionals. They drive nice, late model cars, some expensive. Baltimore City is the "hood"- if they choose to drive through the city to get to work, or to put on a sweatsuit to run errands on a Saturday, I do not find it acceptable that they should be subjected to stops. I simply don't. Growing up, one of my brother's friends was stopped by police once a week. After seeing the documentation of the stops, the police commander from his district (who could probably feel the law suit headed his way) had to intervene and order the patrol men to get it together. He knew ir was nothing more than a racial profile. They were harassing him for being a Black, 17 year old whose parents let him borrow the car on weekends. No other reason to suspect him of doing anything.

It has never been demonstrated to me that racial profiling is the great police tool some like to think it is. And here is why- if you only stop Black people you will only catch Black criminals. If you begin with the ASSumption that Black people commit all the crime and do not look for anyone else to do it, you will find what you are looking for. Doggy's shoplifting example rings so true for me. In college, my girl friends and I drove to Syracuse to go to a real mall. ( Ithaca had none.) In the department store, the sales woman followed us and watched our every move. I am sure she was certain that these four Black girls were there to steal not shop. It would never enter her mind that we could possibly be anything but criminals. Meanwhile, also in her section, a white woman was robbing them blind. We watched her steal 6 articles of clothing. The saleswoman never noticed or thought to notice because to her, we were the"profile." And like Ladygrrek’s story, My cousin was subjected to strip searching when returning to BWI on a class trip to Hong Kong with her MBA program. She was the only Black person on the trip and the only one even questioned, none the less detained and violated. That is more than a mere inconvenience. That was humiliating for her, both the experience and being singled out in front of her classmates as though she had done something wrong. There is a stigma that comes with having been detained by the police, even when they wrong. I have so many anecdotal examples of people being falsely arrested (and in one case convicted) from people I know it is mind blowing.

Of course anyone may be stopped inadvertently but on the basis of a legitimate reason. If all you have is the description of a vehicle like mine, you might stop me. That is perfect logical and good police work. I do believe sometimes people are stopped in this way. Unfortunately, when someone is stopped over and over again and not issued tickets, not found to have done anything at all, not even resembling a wanted person, just being "checked out" for being Black, I think that is a problem.

Some of you posts suggest that you feel our people are truly the criminal element around here, enough so we all are deservedly inconvenienced or harassed. Do you agree with the Black criminal stereotype that is pumped into all of our homes?

Like I said..its easier to point out whats wrong with something...but not so easy I guess to come up with a solution...we all know people who have been stopped unjustly, yada, yada, yada,,, and we can all provide countless examples of that... but now what? What solutions can u bring to the table??

And to address your assumption about me believing our people are truly the criminal element....I'm just not going to "act" as if MANY of our people aren't caught up in the "lifestyle" that leads to a lot of foolish behavior... I live in the #3 murder capital in the US...we had more crimes here than Manhattan last year.... and our city is less than half the size of Manhattan...however most if not ALL the shootings occur in the same areas, among our people that know each other...so I guess a police officer is out of line to search more aggressively in these crime ridden areas??

What I'm saying has nothing to do with saying all black people should be stopped and harassed because they fit the profile....what i am saying is that one is blind if they ignore the fact that many times our people are caught up in situations that are criminal...

Again...what are the solutions??

OH YEA....don't u think its funny that the title of this thread is "Al Gore's endoresement speech" LOL:p :D

Love Spell,
Trust and believe that I am not getting caught up in the spin. The case I referenced is more common than not. And thanks to the USA Patriot ACT they are escalating. YOU and the general public don't hear about them because of the spin put forth by Ashcroft and company. I do because of who I work for. And in this case it did not make the papers until we did the press conference announcing that we were taking the case.

Solutions? Restore the budget cuts of social service agencies that deal with prevention and intervention. Restore the budget cuts to agencies that have missions of strengthening families. Pass laws that will make it easier for people who made mistakes as youth to turn their lives around, e.g. give financial aid to those who have felony convictions and/or did not register for the draft so they can get an education that will allow them to raise their economic status legally. Without such safety nets there will continue to be an upswing in criminal behavior.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great Topic and Discussion

Quote:

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
[BHere's the thing- there is no criminal profile that is that dead on. Ther is no crime being committed solely by people fitting one description. ...

(rest deleted for space) [/B]

...brilliant post, Kimmie1913. Best thinking/articulation I've seen on this topic in many a day (you certainly summed it up betta than I was doing.)

carry on, chile...I'm applauding you madly from the front row. :cool: