Wow, possibly I should have been a little more exact in my comparison of the two men. I am not in any way comparing the scope of the incidents, I am neither that rash nor that uneducated; instead I chose to focus on the impact that the rather lax (in many cases) military justice system is in the case of recklessness of troops that results in the death of non-enemies. That has impacted this country for better or for worse, as has it our allies.

Rob's posts aren't anti-U.S. Stating that Canada is not the same country as the U.S. isn't anti-American, its statement of Fact.

Okay... just got back from my buddies cottage in Michigan. (sunburnt and hung-over), and talking to him it occurred to me that there are some significant cultural differences between the US and Canadian military.... so I'll try to explain some of the reasons why this whole court-martial thing really yanks my chain.

The Canadian Military follows the British regimental tradition; this tradition is close to the Fraternity system in a way. Every regiment has its own traditions, rituals, and history... all of which are very important. The regiment is your fraternity/family, a little more so than the US military (look this is what has been said by the Marines I know). Each regiment has alumni (invited to anniversary/memorial dinners) that are always treated with respect; each regiment has a badge which is more or less a coat of arms, with a latin (Scots gaelic, French, Huron, or Irish gaelic on some others) motto that represents the ideal of the unit; each regiment has a song, usually a mascot, a museum, a standard (think battle flag from Napoleonic or Civil War), and a number of messes.

The "Mess" is a cross between a chapter room and pub, with three messes for each regiment; one for the junior ranks (every enlisted man below Sgt.), a Sgt. Mess which is a little fancier, and finally an Officer's Mess. All of these share common traits; each has it's own traditions and rituals. For example when entering a mess your headdress must be removed, in honour of those who have come before you, and to in effect remove your official rank... everyone is theoretically equal in the mess (what happens in the mess stays in the mess). Another one is that other ranks are barred from the mess; they must ask permission and be escorted into the mess. Each mess also acts as a museum, with photos, trophies, uniforms, weapons, and other relics on display.... this serves to educate the members and impress upon them the weight of history and honour of the Regiment.

Now, every member of the regiment is educated in the history of the regiment's honours and failures (and other regiments will remind you of any dishonour :)). For example one artillery regiment lost it's guns during WWI, they were just recently allowed to remove various "marks" denoting this shame.

Now I was attached to the PPCLI (Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry) while on duty with the UN, so a lot of the history and traditions of the unit has been impressed upon me. Because I was an outsider (from another unit) I was basically a "pledge" until I proved myself.... which happened rather quickly when I mentioned that my grandfather's brother had served as a Corporal with the unit during WWII. Now here is the important part - my grandfather's brother was killed as a result of friendly fire - and the regiment has never forgotten this (they still hold a dinner in memorial). The PPCLI lost 160 men to a bombing attack by the US Air Force as they moved to try and relieve pressure on the US front following D-Day..... The PPCLI lost 13 men to a bombing attack by the US Air Force in Korea, after the US unit holding their left flank broke..... The first incident still outrages some of the veterans because the attack was on the rear lines and medic station, some still refuse to allow any US personnel into the regimental chapel. The second was less agonizing because it was in a combat situation, partly because the PPCLI called artillery down on themselves 30 mins. later to keep the Chinese from overrunning he position. All of this came to a boil when the PPCLI suffered the friendly fire again from the Air Force in Afghanistan..... something the unit has tried very, very hard to prevent (because of it's history).

The fall-out of the latest friendly-fire is alot of anger and bitterness towards the US Air Force (not the Army... they still get along quite well). A number of members have resigned, and there is a lot of "barracks talk" about not participating in an US control actions, or at least near US troops for a very long time. So basically all the dark-jokes and black humour about them watching there backs around the US Air Force turned horribly real again.... and some of the family bitterness was brought back to the surface.

Okay- let me say this in a non threatening, nonholier than thou way (I hope).
I have a close friend who just came back from Iraq. He said that they hardly get any sleep, they are given food, but water is so scarce and hard to come by it is a resource he never thought he would miss as much as he did. He told me about the heat, and the cold (at night) about the people and the pressure. About his tank breaking down every so many miles and about the problems he is still battling with inside for what he has seen/done.
that being said, you don't know what was going on in the pilots mind. He made a mistake, and it hurt people, no doubt, and i am sure that he knows that, but if you were in the same position you don't know what you would have done. IF you thought your plane was under attack, sometimes your instincts come through. I am just saying, you may not have a totally ACCURATE assesment of the situation in which he was in!
NOW- as for the "hotshot" and "cowboy" comments, I personally feel offended. We are not talking about Maverick in TOP GUN< we are talking about a pilot, during wartime= I doubt any of these guys are out trying to show off. They are scared and working in the best situation they can make of it.
And as for the US and Canada- your country has NEVER been attacked like the US was on Sept. 11, and if IT HAD BEEN! Who do you think they would turn to? Britain? I seriously doubt it! You would have come to the US and we would have helped (JUST LIKE WE ALWAYS DO) and Idon't think you would be making comments like you seem to do...
I am sorry that your country lost more lives. It is war, people make mistakes, and no one is perfect. It sucks, it is unfair, and it is life. Perhaps you should wait and HEAR HIS SIDE before JUDGING>...

I just got back from welcoming some friends of mine, that are Marines, back from the Gulf. Yes I know about the stress and the tension, the lack of sleep and supplies, and yes I know that it can get confusing.... I served with the Canadian Forces for 7 years and did a tour in Bosnia (before NATO got invovled). I know what it is like to be shot at, and feel that you are under attack.... I was trained to keep my head and THINK! seek cover and determine the threat and target before you act. It takes a second. Schimdt didn't even do that.... both the Canadian and American inquires found him at fault.

LOL

Sorry, but I call it like I see it.... funny you should mention Top Gun. Guess what, this guy was in Top Gun, scored top of the class, and became an instructor... and his callsign "Psycho". So I feel I can call him a loose cannon, a cowboy, or a hotshot.

yeah after all the last time Canada was attacked like that was what?..... hmm.... oh yeah 1813 when US troops burned Toronto (then York), Niagara Falls, and London. But that's old news; afterall we did get you back ;) every wonder why the White House is white?

Look I'm a student of history and political science, so I make calls based on past precedents and how they relate to current events.... it's not 100% accurate, but I haven't been wrong all that often.

I thought Rob's explanation of some of the military culture was great.

There is a some of that in some units in the Us Military, but I have not heard of them going quite so far.

Some of it is because it violates our precepts of a an egalitarian society, and also because our military tradition really isn't as old nor as firmly based on someone else's already established military.

BuT Rob, often tight cultures like that are evn more likely to try and gloss over the mistakes of one of their own if possible. Especially if the mistake was not deliberately malicious.

That's very true.... you will still find some of the hold-overs from the old British class system in the Canadian military. However it varies greatly from unit to unit; and I found that it is most visible in the reserve units.

Also very true, I saw many cases of mistakes being swept under the rug. However you can only hide so much when the microscope is on an issue. Each Regiment has its own version of the military police, the Regimental Police. These guys are responsible for handling internal discipline and policing of the regiment. However when it comes to court martials the MPs are called in and an special inquiry is called (been there done that).

Out of curiousity, when did we start sending Air Force pilots to Top Gun? It's the Navy Fighter Weapons School. Was Major Schmidt a Naval Avaitor before joining the Air National Guard?

It is old news, but I believe in 1813, we were at WAR with England. I also don't believe Canada was a soverign nation then, was it? So, did we attack Canada -- or a part of the British Empire? Kind of a major difference in my mind.

Besides, Congress had it on good authority that you guys were working on weapons of mass destruction, so it was OK. Wasn't that when George the First (Bush, that is) was director of the CIA?

Brother Cooper, first, let me give my deepest sympathy to you!:(

The Canadian / American pissing back and forth is uncalled for by one and all. Thank You.

I never was in the military, but in the law enforcement end of a paramilitary organization.

Friendly Fire, I always loved that statement made up by poloticians for someone Fucked Up!:o

Remember, there were no one there but the Pilots and the men on the ground who were killed and maimed. Who is it of us to decide. While The Pilots were give SOP, and AWACS directions, no one was there but those involved.

While reports are put out, DeltaAlum, you can verify this, that Govt. Reports and Media Reports can be very one sided!

As anyone in the know, PR are is Bullshit in a spary can!

I am in hopes since none of us were there that the Military Judicial system will be fair and just.

For those of you who have never been in a situation where life and death is a posibility it is strenuious. I carred God at my side for 7 years and it is not a Top Gun situation, it is a very grave responsabilty!:(

God forbid that any of us have to be in this situation!

I thought that too until I saw his Bio.... it did mention something about him being the first (or one of) Air Force personel to qualify/go to Top Gun (sorry it was a while ago that I saw the report). I admit it did throw me off seeing that..... thought for a second that someone had screwed up in their research :)

Yes it was a war between the US and the British Empire... however the only feasible target was then the Canada colonies: Upper and Lower Canada (Ontario and Quebec).

Incidentally you guys came damn close to a major war with the British, not just battles bewteen the US and the British garrison and Canadian militia. Following the end of the Pennisula Campaign against Napoleon the British Parliment asked Wellington to organize an army taken from the Pennisula veterans and take them to North America... only thing was Wellington said he was tired of war and death and declined; support fizzled out and only an comparatively minor (about a 10th the size) assault force was sent - they guys who attacked Washington DC and New Orleans.

Tell me about it.... reports that were scewed by the media is one of the reasons that the Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded following the Somilia Incident.

However in this case both the Canadian and American inquires and reports placed the blame on the pilots and Mj. Schmidt in paticular. It was these reports that led to the initial charges being filled against Mj. Schmidt.... 4 counts involunatry manslaughter and 8 counts of assault; all of which added up to a possible 64 years in prison.

That possible sentence was scene as a little harsh even up here in Canada. Basically most of the families and military felt that if spent 2 years in prison and was dishonourably discharged that was fine. However as it stands he faces 6 months jail time, a dock in pay (which he is fighting the hardest), after which he returns to active duty with the Air National Guard. Quite frankly that is what has pissed off the most people.... along with the press confrences that his defense fund has held.... blaming "go-pills", blaming the Canadian soldiers, blaming the AWACs personnel, blaming the length of his breifings, blaming the "Air Force brass", blaming Canadian politics (this one changed alot following Canada's refusal to join the coalition), and blaming command staff in Kandahar.... in effect blaming everyone and everything but himself.

An update on the friendly fire incident.... for those that saw the earlier post about the history involving firendly fire....

CNCNewsworld is airing a program called aptly "Friendly Fire" on Witness... I recommend any and all that can view it to try to... it airs at 7pm Toronto time and I believe again at 1am Sunday, June 6th.

Yet another update...

The US Air Force has dismissed charges against Mj. Schimdt, and instead he will face administrative punishment.... are there any US Military personnel kicking around on the board that can shed some light on what this means?


While he faced 4 counts involunatry manslaughter and 8 counts of assault, which could have meant 64 years behind bars, that was seen as too harsh up here (military and media)... but I'm not sure if administrative punishments would be "good" enough either....

Personally I would love to see him actually publically apologise or admit that he made a mistake... like his wingman. The difference between the two pilots come-off like night and day... one lawyers-up, the other refuses and tries to go visit the Canadian base... one fights tooth and nail in court to keep his pay and flight status, the other resigns in a tearful statement.... one dropped his armament after being told to hold-fire, the other urged caution and held back... which too me comes off as one has little to no honour, while the other demonstrated considerable honour.

From the looks of it, Maj. Schmidt will probably get an Article 15 (after Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice), which is administrative, non-judicial punishment. This can range from forfeiture of part or all pay and allowances for a certain number of months, restriction to quarters, correctional custody (basically a re-hash of basic training, only for enlisted), demotion or a reprimand.

To a first-term enlisted person, an Article 15 isn't too much of a career-ender; for higher-ranking NCOs and officers it almost always means the end of a career, because there is no way in hell that they'll get another promotion again. If they're close to 20 years, they might let them stay to collect retirement; less than that and you might as well resign your commission.

Yep... if I remember correctly, a picture of him shows him wearing both his Air Force pilot wings and his Navy Wings of Gold.