just something to 'throw in' about AA
 

Although gender had nothing to do with this particular court's ruling, gender also plays a role in AA, and a lot of people forget that.

Some universities might want gender-based equality and might admit a woman to a certain college who might have a lower test score, GPA, whatever over a male applicant whether or not she was a minority.

(Please see the word "some" and "might".. I have never worked for a university admissions dept. though! :) )

The same goes for jobs in the 'real world' when we graduate.

In my organizational behavior class we went in-depth into discussions about companies all over who are trying to help women (not just minorities) break the "glass ceiling" and succeed just like many men in the respective fields had before.

Which is why I have a hard time feeling sorry for Gratz and Hammacher (sp?). They were, at best, mediocre students who felt as if admission to their state flagship university, which just happens to be one of the top schools in the nation, was owed to them. Reading interviews with Jennifer Gratz, I don't feel any pity or sympathy for her at all--she wasn't reasonable with her college choices! I doubt kids from Virginia, however good they are, don't bank on getting into UVa to the point where it's the only school they applied. That was the equivalent of what she did.

The moral of this story should be that college admission is not owed to anyone--especially when it involves the elite schools. I know minority 4.0/1600/valedictorians with excellent activities who were rejected from Harvard/Brown/MIT/Stanford. At good schools, there's not enough room to let in the best kids by numbers alone. The review has to be holistic to provide the best student bodies possible.

This reminds me of the general pettiness which has infiltrated college admissions--I know it's gotten worse today. I know that when I, who was in the top 1% of my graduating class, with excellent SAT scores and activities, was accepted to my Ivy League college, the AA talk happened immediately--to the point where people were trying to find out my family income, scores, and GPA, in really underhanded ways. I had people--allegedly friends--tell me I got in just because I was a student of color and was dependent on a scholarship. Let's just say I don't talk to those people anymore. So, if you are a student of color regardess of your academic performance, socioeconomic status, or extracurricular activities, you will get the affirmative action excuse hurled at you. There really wasn't a point to this hijack, but I thought it was important that I mention this.

DeltAlum, do you know how that would be handled if the person in question was a small percentage, say, Hispanic or African American?

I vaguely recall learning in a history class that in the post Civil-War south if a person were known to be 1/8th African American their status would be considered to be African American as opposed to Caucasian even if they looked completely Caucasian.

Obviously, that pigeonholing of people no longer exists. But would it be possible that today some enterprising high school senior raised as a Caucasian in a majority Caucasian community does some geneological family research and discovers that he or she is 1/8th or so African American and so checks that box on the college application?

With colleges getting more and more competitive these days, I wonder if people do that and if they do, is it "right"?

That absolutely makes sense; I totally agree with you! I would be really interested in hearing the opposing argument, though.

Re: just something to 'throw in' about AA
 

Actually, more women are attending colleges than men these days.
I believe AA mainly becomes a gender issue when dealing with jobs.

omg i am SO gonna get flamed, so i'm gonna do my best to not sound like a complete idiot in this process to not make it worse.

with AA.....the concept is a good idea, a nice thought...but so was communism. <FLAME> i don't think it's the responsibilty of the university to bring in students of other races or genders, i think it's the sole responsibilty of the student. <FLAME> sorry, but this is so the republican coming out in me.....<FLAME, FLAME, FLAME> i understand the idea that not everyone comes from the same educational system, but that's why most universities that get these AA attacks require teacher recs and student essays.....see how a student performed in class, no matter what the class size, etc.

if you want something bad enough, you are going to work your ass off for it. period. you're gonna do whatever it takes, and NOT rely on something as unimportant to your skills as a human being as your gender or your race. does that make sense? i really hope i am not sounding super bad, but this is my opinion on the matter......and maybe i don't know enough facts about how it "really works", but i've read over this thread and i'm not a moron, so i think i get how it's supposed to.....just not feelin it. i understand that universities want diversity and to give students who may not have the opportunity a chance....but i'm sorry......someone is gonna have a better score, essay, rec.....and if that person is a black female, send her a congratualtions note and give her her dorm key. however, the same should be said for a white male. people want things to be fair and to be treated with equality.....AA just doesn't really seem all that equal and fair to me.....<FLAME> i'm not trying to keep anyone down, i'm not trying to say that AA is dumb or stupid.....i just happen to think that AA was a good idea, just not IDEAL.

i just was always taught you reap what you sow.....don't rely on anything but yourself and your own merits to get you through life. which means if you work hard enough, you'll get there. there will always be knocks and hard times, but you keep going.

if/when i am flamed, please keep in mind that this is all my opinion....i did not resort to name-calling, and i would appreciate the same respect. :) thanks!

I said "If." Of course you can't know.

They can make a reasonable guess at what race you are if you have a first name like "Aisha" . . . or a last name like "Chang" or "Gonzalez." Or for that matter, a last name like "Dimitroyovskaya." Of course you can't guess the color of everyone's skin by the name they have, but you can make a reasonable guess and be right on in most cases. The little box isn't the only clue to someone's race.

Not to mention the fact that every college I applied to had a "I prefer not to say" box in the race category, so if you wanted your race to not be factored in, you could check that.

True. Like I said above, Caucasian males are actually on the receiving end of affirmative action when it comes to college acceptances more than Caucasian women are. In college, white women are the "majority."

Edited to add: In college, white women are the majority . . . except at schools like Cal Tech or MIT where the student base has been historically male. Those are the few schools where being a woman will qualify you for AA points.

um.....you said "if"....just not exactly in the right place......you said you "know that the white kid will just graduate from college and spend the rest of his life doing nothing but managing a walmart"....the only "if" there was setting up the scenario...

not trying to be bitchy, just saying where the confusion came in on that one. i'm sure you meant it another way......

:)

I know . . . but I figured the qualifier "if" was enough to set up the fact that it was a completely hypothetical situation. :)

From my own experience I went to a predominantly black high school and DC and all my friends that wanted to go to the top colleges and universities got there. They got there because along with great gpas and sat scores, they had extra-curriculars and what not. I work in admissions at my school and there isnt one formula for all, they look at each application individually do see how they would fit at my school. Personally I wouldnt except a person who just has a 4.0 gpa and thats it. I would rather have a student with a 3.5 and involved in their community.

I can vouch for this. Mr. Munch, a Caucasian male who is in the process of becoming a teacher, has received more offers for scholarships/admissions into certain programs than I ever did. Why? There is a shortage of male teachers, especially in the places we plan to live after graduation and getting married. That in itself is a form of affirmative action--is that wrong?

There are many many other ways to find out one's race than the box. I applied for admission at Berkeley for last year--a school that eliminated AA as we know it a few years ago. College activities, membership in certain organizations, and essays can all be indicators of racial background. In fact, my recommenders were encouraged to write about how I would contribute to the diversity at Berkeley. My essays--for admission and scholarships--all called for some discussion of my "background." UT, although not as blatant, was very similar. So, there are ways.

Do any other states have policies similar to the Texas public university system?

Here, if you are in the top 15% of your graduating class, you are automatically admitted to any public university in the state... no matter what your test scores were, if your high school was "elite" or not....(although you still have to actually "apply" to the schools)

I'm actually not sure if it's the top 15% or the top 10%? Maybe someone from Texas can clear that up for me.

It's nice that something like that is in place because then no one gets upset about the whole AA thing & gives everyone a chance at a great education.

I realize not everyone wants to go to school in Texas, and maybe not all want to go to public universities in Texas, but it is nice that the students get some kind of reward for making good grades in high school.

I think Georgia has something similar.

Georgia has the Hope Scholarship funded by the lottery.