I just have a couple of things to add...

AOIIBrandi - I agree whole-heartedly with what you have said. I couldn't have said it any better. I am the product of the Florida public school system, though my high school was one of the best in the district at the time. In the past few years, it has plumetted because all the good teachers left.

I just went to a guidance conference last week that was hosted by the State University System of Florida. One thing, the State University System of Florida actually guarantees admission to a state university to anyone who graduates in the top twenty percent of their high school graduation class (it's a program called the Talented Twenty). Now, that may not be UF or FSU, but it does get you in somewhere whether it be UNF, UWF, USF, UCF, FIU, FAU, etc. The fact of the matter is that they are limiting enrollment at places like UF and FSU because they have become bottom (undergraduate) heavy. They are trying to get back to the purposes of the larger state universities -- research, development, graduate study. It's a very transitional time for our state, but to say the education system has been run into the ground by Jeb alone is completely inaccurate. For example, Duval County has issues with their schools, but I place that blame squarely on the shoulders of the school board.

I live in Jacksonville, Pike. Some people call us South Georgia because we are one of the last really strong Republican strongholds in the state. Actually, George W. was here last year on September 11th. He makes visits here a lot, as does his brother. Jeb came out to support his son when the high school I teach at was playing his son in soccer. He doesn't get attention when he is being the good father, only when something goes wrong, which is unfortunate. I'm not saying I think George P. is innocent in any way, shape or form. All I am saying is that I would like to see our society value the good and not focus on the negative so much.

I'm not one to argue a bunch, because I realize people have a right to their own opinion, which, more than likely, I am not going to be able to change. I just wanted to pass along information that's relevant to the discussion.

I won't deny the existence of a glass ceiling, but I also believe that we have for the most part grown out of the need for affirmative action, or at least the way it is defined today. I also believe that AA breeds resentment (even among some minorities), and that this resentment can and will come back to bite us. I also know that we will not be truely equal until all applications are race and sex blind. I just don't like to depend on anyone for anything. If I do not get a job or admitted to my first choice college then I probably should have worked harder for what I wanted, or maybe it was just not meant to be. I cannot go around depending on or blaming the government.

When I graduated from HS I was not in the top 10th of my class, but I was still admitted to every state school I applied to. BTW, they were both research 1 institutions. I did qualify for the state scholarship award of $2500.00 /year (whatever it was called before bright futures), but I chose to go to school out of state. I did not have any other scholarships or grants so now I owe the government $30,000, but I have a college degree. What I learned from this is that my husband and I will work as hard as we can to make sure that WE provide for our future children's education.

Libra - You must have graduated from a small HS to have not been in the top 10th in your class. I would still think a 3.825 would earn you a scholarship from some source.

The beauty of this country is that it is founded on freedom. Remember life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness - property if you will. I have the right to go out and work as hard or as little as I like, and to be whatever I want to be. I can change my class despite what I was born into. All it takes is determination on MY part.

I think that's a nice thing to say, but is it really true? I don't know and I've never had to worry about it, because I was born into a middle class white family in the suburbs and had an excellent public school system. I have never been faced with these issues.

Sometimes I really doubt that it is in your power to change that much. For example, I had a client the other day whose mother was a drug dealer and who lived a life of complete poverty. She grew up with no parental support and guidance and as a result developed absolutely no self esteem. She fell in with a bad guy and is now looking at 4 years in prison because she picked up some crack for him, arguably not even knowing what it was because it was hidden inside another item. Does she have the power to change her class? What about the girl who grows up in the projects, sees her brother shot dead in gang warfare, whose mother is on drugs and who goes through a public school system so crappy they can't even afford books or stop the violence that occurs every day? How does she even know that there's anything else out there? How does she know that she can do it if nobody ever tells her that she can, or even that there is anything she can do differently from what she has seen her whole life? How can she compete against people like me and get into college?

Well, I grew up in a single parent household with my sister where my Mother had to work overtime to pay the bills leaving me to make dinner and do all the other things a parent would otherwise do. The great thing is that I had a mom who ALWAYS stressed that we could be anything we want to be and that college was NOT an option, but MANANTORY. Now I am proud to say as is she that my husband and I already make more than she ever has and YES we have changed classes.

My husband also has a similar story, so I would say that just because I include him in the equation does not make it any different.

I don't participate in conversations on affirmative action almost on general principle, BUT I had to comment:

AOPi, you sound very naive. Do you really think that we have anything approaching a level field in America? On any level? I assure you that when it comes to education that we do not. THere are a number of school districts that are suffering from de jure segregation STILL. And guess who gets the worse of the situation? Schools that are in minority neighborhoods in general suck. The chances of a black student in any city receiving the same education as a white student are slim. Some of the worst case scenarios are just mind boggling (suggested reading: ANYTHING by ARthur Kozol)- schools without books, schools where classes are taught in broomclosets.

Affirmative action is not needed only to redress historical wrongs, it is needed to ensure that there is anything approcahing parity in college admissions, not because black students are lazy or stupid, but because they simply do not have the same educational opportunities as whites, often enough that this is a major problem in the black community.

I tell this story often- I went to a Private, predominately white high school.My good friend went to a local public school. She was head of the student body, a straight A student, got good scores, and at the end had a college guidance counselor who referred her to a state school. Never a mention of a Harvard or a Yale because he did not even conceive that oneof his students could go there.

There is not parity. AA, in its most beneficial form, addresses that.

White women need not complain about it- you receive the benefits of AA and you don't really suffer any of the prejudices and setbacks that REAL minorities do.

Lovelyivy, I've agreed with everything you have said, but this comment sort of bothers me and that might partly be because I'm detecting some hostility. As a white woman, I've really not complained about anything, but believe me, in my field (law) in a town like Chicago where the legal community is very conservative, even white women face tons and tons of barriers, and maybe even more so because we're not appealing in that we don't add to a firm's minority count which is something that is usually publicized. We're just white women. Sometimes I think we fall through the cracks, although I'm not complaining at all, just making an observation.

I just have to comment on a couple things...

As a member of my high school's guidance department, I think that some of the responsibility for looking at different colleges has to be on the individual student. We've already had 7 colleges come to visit our senior class this year and many of them already have applications in at their first choice colleges and universities. The student should be an active participant in the college selection process, not a bystander.

I have read Kozol's Savage Inequalities and I realize that there is parity within the system, more so in certain areas. In the district in which I live, my alma mater (which was equally divided 50/50 when I went there) has had a steadily decreasing budget. My public school system had poured money into the schools in which there is a majority of miniority students. There are things being done to make the system better and more equal. Personally, I would like to see all of the schools receive equal money; that is the only way I think things will ever be completely fair.

Also, one thing I forgotten to mention before. Jeb has instituted something called the H.E.R.O.E.S scholarship. It allows children at schools which are failing them educationally to attend a private school in their area. If you are eligible for free lunch, you are eligible for the scholarship. It pays $3500 a year, which would cover most K-6 schools tuition. Just something to remember :)

Excuse me, but I am bitter.

IT seems like MANY white women I know are against aa. Why? Because they feel that they don't need it, and it makes them look bad. THere is never a consideration that there are a LOT of people who do need it.

I personally don't feel that I needed AA- I had an A in hs, and some of the highest scores in my class. I realised that despite this there would ALWAYS be people who would say that I achieved everything I have because of AA. But I realise that there are TOO MANY who need that program- and still receive no benefits (that's another argument entirely, about the EFFECTIVENESS of AA as it is practiced- which I believe is not significant). So for me to suggest that it be abolished simply because it is inconvenient for me is SELFISH. Plain ol selfish.

AOPi's post just brought all that up.

For the record, I am completely in favor of AA.

I don't mean to attack you, and I do apologize if it's coming off that way. I'm just old and bitter, lol.

I like Clinton. His brother was such a great honorable man. While in office he weakened our intelligence agencies as they were purely unnecessary. When getting ready to leave office, he gave pardons to anyone who sent funds to him, his wife, or his brother. And when he left they noticed a lot of incredibly expensive items stolen from the White House.

-Rudey
--And let's not forget the cigar incident. It takes a big man to "flavor" his Cubans.

Thanks for saying that. :)

So much to quote, so little time! I am just going to have to summarize for now and come back later, I have to go to class soon.

Number one, valkyrie, you have raised some great points. Please don't feel like there is resentment towards YOU personally, it is not that way at all. It is just tiresome to see that people still feel that just because THEIR experience was that they had to walk 10 miles uphill in the snow to school everyday, yet THEY graduated, that it MUST be that way for everyone. Right? Wrong. And I am not directing that towards you at all, just trying to explain the attitude.

pbpck. Wow. All I have to say...just wow. You are SO blinded by the red white and blue. I suggest you do some major research into the history of "God's green Earth". You will find MANY regimes, dynasties, and nations that have been greater than ours. We have been the United States for around 300 years. Do you understand how young we are?? To call us the greatest is VERY presumptious, and VERY false.

Also? LOL. Because you TRULY believe that we are HELPING those who we are at war with. Wow. That last post just had me floored and I will have to address it in detail later.

And sorry, I forget the poster's name, but actually I went to a pretty average sized school. I DID get offered scholarships, Bright Futures in fact, but that was before the Jeb Bush era, so I didn't have to worry about it.

Lovelyivy hit the nail square on the head. If you are indeed so patriotic, then is it not hypocritical to attempt to deny someone a right guaranteed in the constitution (freedom of speech)? I mean really! I feel like we have McCarthy right here among us in GC, lol.

lol, we have really gotten off topic here. Weren't we talking about Jeb's daughter?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pbpck

It saddens me deeply to see a US citizen state what you have just said. And who exactly do you believe is the greatest nation in the history of the world? How could you pledge the allegiance and sing the national anthem with this belief? I am not trying to attack you, but understand the rationale behind your thought process. Understand why you would question the greatness of your own country? Or is it just for argument's sake?

I will admit that the United States is a great country. It is hard to deny that and I never will. I just think it's ridiculous to think that in the history of mankind, it is possible to name one country as the greatest. There have been too many nations, empires, city states etc, many of whom were considered the greatest in their own time, to be able to name one as the greatest of all time.


BUT I believe DURING A TIME OF WAR, a TIME WHEN OUR COUNTRY'S CITIZENS SHOULD FIND SOLIDARITY IN OUR FIGHT FOR SAFETY FOR ALL CITIZENS AND FREEDOM IN OUR COUNTRY, we should support our president. LibraSoul defined traitor. And by her definition, I do believe that it would be traitorous to stand in opposition to your president in wartime. I will hold it my duty as a proud citizen of his country to support my country's leader in his fight to protect my life and my freedom and the life and freedom of those that I love. To his abilities, President Bush is doing the best he can to protect his nation's safety.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I don't believe it is my duty to stand behind my president in time of war if I don't believe in him. During WWII, Americans turned a blind eye to concentration camps and Japanese internment camps in the name of solidarity. Looking back now, there is a sense of regret for not speaking out against them. Since September 11, untold numbers of American citizens have been detained and denied the right to a fair trial. The TIPS program that was announced this past summer asked citizens to spy on each other and report suspicious behavior. There were similar programs in place in the Soviet Union and communist China that told people to report their neighbors for behavior that went against the state. As long as policies like these are being carried out, I will not stand in solidarity behind my president.

Solidarity is a wonderful concept. During WWII, people bought war bonds, rationed their food and did what they could to help the cause. It is the same spirit that we saw after 9/11 when people gave blood, donated money and delivered food to the rescue workers. That is the type of unity and spirit that makes me love my country so much. Turning a blind eye to injustices in government policy is not true solidarity and patriotism to me.

I would like to question what LibraSoul would do in dealing with terrorist acts as she stated that war is not a necessary evil. If our country abstained from any wars, I highly doubt that our country would maintain the level of international power and respect it has today.

Surprisingly enough, (at least the people who know me find it surprising) I am not against the war on terror. It was successful in toppling the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. I hope that in the future, we aid in rebuilding the nation so that another Taliban can not take over.

Am I missing something here? 226 years right?