I don't think I have had many conversations with you at all, so I'm not sure why you perceive that? You sound a little defensive. I really just wonder what you think feminism is since you are so sure you aren't a feminist.

Hey, hey, ladies. No spats. THis is an interesting thread and I don't think we want to have it shut down.

The term "feminism" has a bad connotation for some people. I don't think of it negatively but some people see bra burners, Gloria Steinam, etc when they hear the word. But then I thought Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) was a little conservative back in the day. So some people don't want that term used to describe them - though if they knew the definition, they would support it.

My point exactly. Feminism isn't a bad thing. People have tried to turn into something ugly when it isn't. Sometimes before you say you are or aren't something, you need to define it. IF after defining it, you STILL aren't a feminist, fine.

Webster's defines feminism as either
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

Obviously, the confusion comes when one confuses the feminist ideal with a particular political movement. Much the same as one could be a Republican but not agree with the entire party platform.

Someone asked upthread:

WHAT IS RAPE CULTURE?
In a rape culture, people are surrounded with images, language, laws, and other everyday phenomena that validate and perpetuate, rape. Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.”

And, there are those who truly believe the sexes are not equal. I know my SIL probably would fall into this group as a believer in patriarchy. There aren't that many women that fall into that group, though.

Not at all the experiences I had in a more-than-20-year military career. I was the first woman in my career field, and to this day I don't think there have been more than about two dozen women in the field. I found mostly respect, and the men apparently knew that I didn't get where I was by being the "weaker sex." I earned my place, and managed to put those who didn't believe me in their proper places.

I'm not sure I'm a feminist, but I've never allowed some perception of male- or female-dominated activities to interfere with where I wanted to be. Today, I don't join organizations that restrict membership. I even debated with myself whether I was being untrue by retaining my DG membership, but DG is a part of who I am.

So, too, is the school. I would not have been a DG at some SEC school, or a big state school with huge chapters ... but neither are those the schools I would have chosen to attend. I attended a small, intensive school that had only recently eliminated its women's college, but because I never questioned my right to be there, neither did anyone else.

When I started to identify as a feminist* after beginning my Women's Studies courses, I did take a long hard look at my Greek organization and what it was doing to create strong, moral, outstanding women for my community. I found myself surrounded by dozens of them and so I learned that even with the culture that being "engaged" with fraternity men's causes, we were still leaving much better than the average woman on campus.

My chapter also took women that leaned toward being headstrong and I feel that we benefited from that more than many other chapters on campus because we were not so quick to "buy in" on the stereotypical concepts thrown at us.

My first sets of littles are some of the strongest feminists I know, along with a great deal of my pledge sisters. I'm very happy to have "grown up" within the chapter. But I do wonder about other institutions' chapters when I see the frenzies that are created on these boards from time to time. I'm not sure how universal my experience is.

*Although sometimes I lean more toward womanist due to the lack of inclusion of women of color.

That sounds like the definitions of hazing that are stretchier than Grandma's underwear.

EXACTLY my point. You shouldn't have to feel that way. Many of the kind of feminists that I don't like go on and on about smash the patriarchy, but are so sheltered from the real world that they would run screaming the other way if they actually had to talk to (OMG) a person of color.

Actually, you have had conversations with me and they have always ended in you being rude or finding fault with whatever I say. This is a great example. Later on you stated, "Sometimes before you say you are or aren't something, you need to define it. IF after defining it, you STILL aren't a feminist, fine." Why must I define anything for you? How do you know that I do not know the definition? When I earned my second master's degree, I also earned a certificate of advanced study in women's studies with a great deal of my courses being in feminism (to include black feminist theories). I think I have a pretty good idea of what feminism is about. Did I say it was bad? No. I said that I do not identify with being a feminist. Now, does that answer suffice or are you going to assume I am uneducated on the topic and have no clue what I am talking about?

As far as DGTess is concerned, I'm glad that you were not sexually harassed while in the military. That's great. In my nine years in the Army, I was. It appeared in your response that you were insinuating that I did something to make the males in my unit believe I was a "weaker" sex. Last time I checked, that was called victim-blaming (though I never viewed myself as a victim). I never gave that impression. When you are in a unit of nothing but men and you deploy with them to a war zone, you see the true colors of many of these "happily married men" who attempt to see how far you will go. Thankfully, I have my integrity and would never have done anything with anyone---especially with people who were married or attached in any way. Please don't assume that because I had been sexually harassed on numerous ocassions, that I "asked for it" or that I conveyed a particular image to get unwanted attention. I could tell you horror stories of the things that have been said to me by people of the same rank and even superiors. I once had a Captain poke my breast, while in PT clothing, and ask if they "were real."

I am aware of what feminism is about. I know about rape culture (unfortunately, I actually took an entire class on rape--depressing course). The question was about feminism and sororities. I gave my opinion as to how some people, not saying me, could attempt to answer the question.

I don't think that DGTess was saying anything about your experiences - just that hers was much different and she felt that her colleagues had recognized her for her education or experience? Without regard to her gender?

Returning to the topic- why is it that you do not agree with feminism? Or womanism?
Do you feel your GLO experience influenced that?

First of all, not everything I post on GC is directed at you. Secondly, I am never rude to you. If I disagree with you that is one thing, but I don't purposely attack you. You on the other hand are openly hostile to people on many occasions. As for your statement that I "have a knack for finding fault with everything" you say, it's completely preposterous since I haven't had a conversation with you for MONTHS. In fact, I purposely don't engage you. The last time I responded to you was in the Penn State thread. Sorry if you are overly touchy about Penn State, but that in no way means that I find fault with everything you say. You still haven't said why you aren't a feminist, BTW. You know...this is a discussion board. No one is attacking you. It's called conversation. Maybe we all will learn something from hearing from someone who doesn't feel the same way we all do. If someone asks you a question, you don't have to take it as a slam. I'm not sure why you come on GC if you don't want to participate in a free flow of ideas and jump down people's throats when they try to engage with you.

Well, yes, you can, as a thought experiment, use it to include anything from a fashion magazine (objectifying women) to a strongman competition (promoting over-masculinity). But it's probably not useful to this conversation to try to encompass all those things, when there are so many direct lines.

For example, Total Frat Move:

"I’m not sexist. Being sexist is wrong, and being wrong is for women. TFM."

"“I’m not saying she’s a whore, but if her vagina had a password, it would be ‘password.’”

"Convincing her to break her New Year's resolution, and then telling her she can't sleep over because it would break yours."

and total sorority move:

"Being the biggest drunken mess Saturday night, but the most impeccably dressed Sunday at chapter."

"Just drink until it’s not awkward anymore."

"Dear New Year's Eve, please give me back my dignity and my shoes."

See, there you go again. You are still finding fault with something I say or have said and you start attacking me by telling me that I am hostile. It gets really old. You must have some sort of complex. Once again, I don't feel the need to tell you why I'm not a feminist. I thought you said earlier that if a woman knows how to define it and then decides she is not a feminist, then you were okay with that response. I already told you I am aware of the definition and yet you still find something wrong with me not identifying as one. After sitting through various classes on feminism, I realized that it isn't for me. I recognize it's not all about "man-hating" or anything like that. I'm very conservative in all of my views (all) and feminism does not play a part in how I choose to define myself. Does that work for you? Please, feel free to no longer engage me. I would be more than happy with that.

HQWest, I read it as her trying to tell me that my experience was different because I must have brought it upon myself. Thank you for your response, though. Actually, I never viewed myself as a feminist. As 33girl noted, before I even took classes in feminist theory, I did have the view it was all bra-burning and men-hating women on a rampage. Once I became educated on the topic, I recognized that I still identify with not being a feminist.

DeltaBetaBaby brings up a great point about TFM. If you read through the site, you'll notice that there are many references to politics and how women are treated like objects. Now, like many other comedic sites (Tosh.O), this is common. The TFM site appears to be made up of many women who come from more "conservative" areas. I wonder if there are women who identify as feminists, though they may be incredibly conservative (political-wise/ religious-wise). I noticed that when I moved to a very "liberal" area, my friends from this area seemed to identify with being feminists. My friends from more "conservative" areas do not. I realize you can be conservative and be a feminist---though, I think that may be somewhat hard to do in certain cases. It's like telling someone who is a social worker that they can't vote Republican (yes, I've heard that a lot). Do you think that has something to do with it, from your perspective?

This is how I think of feminism and I'm always confused about how a woman who has gone to college, held a job in an underrepresented field, owned property, or voted in an election can say they are not a feminist. Without feminism, none of those things would have been possible.

The feminist movement has had a great benefit to both men and women. It has raised our standard of living as we can have dual income households, taking the pressure off of the man to be the sole provider. Men can also choose any occupation they want, even things that were traditionally "female only" such as nursing. Men have different relationships with their children, more healthy relationships, than simply being the disciplinarian in the family. It also allows men to not always be stoic and strong. It also allows men to take paternity leaves in some cases (something I think should be universal!)

Feminism is about choice. It allows families to choose how they want to function, whether they decide, as a unit, to have a stay at home mom, stay at home dad, or two working parents. It allows women to leave abusive situations because they can have a job and own their own house. It allows divorced families to set up joint custody arrangements allowing the dads to remain involved in raising their kids. It is more the norm here for courts to grant joint custody than to automatically grant the mom full custody.

als, this is not an attack on you, but it is difficult for me to understand how you can say you do not believe in equal rights for women when you've done all of these non-traditional things that would not have been possible 50 years ago. I sometimes wonder if women of your generation don't realize how things were for my mother's generation. My mom had to quit her job as a bank teller as soon as she was visibly pregnant. Do you believe that is right?

In my experience, our sororities definitely support feminism. Much of our programming is about developing leadership skills and empowering women to make decisions. We encourage scholastic success and provide networking opportunities to aid our members in the work force. If you join a sorority simply for the mixers, you're going to be really disappointed because you spend a lot more hours doing other things with the chapter.